[ness31]

If you can make a public health case to coerce parents into vaccinating their children, I don’t really see why it can’t be enforced on adults too :eh:

[Drlee]

If you can make a public health case to coerce parents into vaccinating their children, I don’t really see why it can’t be enforced on adults too

It can. The military requires its troops to be inoculated. HHS has some jobs requiring vaccination as do many private employers. In fact, one large hospital chain just fired over 50 people for failure to take their flu shots.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Technically, the state coerces people into obeying laws concerning not murdering people when they feel angry or slighted. It's not that different from compelling citizens to get their vaccinations so they don't endanger other people. While vaccination isn't universally mandatory, many places try to keep people, including children, who are not vaccinated away from others, especially in school settings, for obvious reasons. It is irresponsible and neglectful to not vaccinate one's children.

The reason society compels/"coerces" people to get vaccinated is to prevent them from spreading easily-preventable deadly diseases that are exceedingly rare now in the Western (and much of the world in many cases) world due to vaccination programs. Being sick and not being vaccinated are both public hygiene issues. It is irresponsible and dangerous to go to work while being sick with something transmissible, and for the same reason both apply to people who refuse to get vaccinated but interact with people. It's unspeakably callous to the health of other people.

If some idiot refuses to get vaccinated because of the academically-withdrawn/debunked bullshit peddled by @Sivad on the previous pages, or some other equally idiotic reason, the rest of society doesn't need to coddle a grown adult deliberately endangering themselves and others. A dangerous idiot is a dangerous idiot.

[ness31]

It can. The military requires its troops to be inoculated. HHS has some jobs requiring vaccination as do many private employers. In fact, one large hospital chain just fired over 50 people for failure to take their flu shots.

Military I can understand. They probably test vaccines out on troops.
Hospital staff is also a bit of a no brainer - if you’re going to talk the talk you should walk the walk..

Private firms would need some very compelling reason to force vaccines on people. An example might be a large exploration company doing business in a part of the world with unsavoury conditions. Understandable.

If a retail chain in suburbia tried forcing vaccines on staff then that wouldn’t really cut it

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Military I can understand. They probably test vaccines out on troops.
Hospital staff is also a bit of a no brainer - if you’re going to talk the talk you should walk the walk..

Private firms would need some very compelling reason to force vaccines on people. An example might be a large exploration company doing business in a part of the world with unsavoury conditions. Understandable.

If a retail chain in suburbia tried forcing vaccines on staff then that wouldn’t really cut it

Depends on the country, but in the US, equal employment rules allow businesses to require vaccinations as a condition of employment. Not all do. People can object on religious grounds or disability (although rare, some people are allergic to some of the adjuvants in vaccines). A retail chain can require potential employees to have their standard vaccinations (although with the previously-mentioned exceptions).

Smallpox vaccination is still commonly administered for US military personnel, particularly when they go overseas.

[Drlee]

Applicants for immigration into the US are required to have received:
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Influenza
Influenza type b (Hib)
Measles
Meningococcal
Mumps
Pneumococcal
Pertussis
Polio
Rotavirus
Rubella
Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
Varicella

Many countries require certain vaccinations for travel.

The US recommends that all travelers to China have : : Typhoid, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, rabies, Japanese encephalitis, polio, and influenza. I have had rabies vaccine but I think it may be a bit much for routine travel to China. Nevertheless, there is little reason not to have all of the above.

[ness31]

Applicants for immigration into the US are required to have received:
Hepatitis A
Hepatitis B
Influenza
Influenza type b (Hib)
Measles
Meningococcal
Mumps
Pneumococcal
Pertussis
Polio
Rotavirus
Rubella
Tetanus and diphtheria toxoids
Varicella

Can’t argue with that.

Many countries require certain vaccinations for travel.

The US recommends that all travelers to China have : : Typhoid, hepatitis A, hepatitis B, rabies, Japanese encephalitis, polio, and influenza. I have had rabies vaccine but I think it may be a bit much for routine travel to China. Nevertheless, there is little reason not to have all of the above.

Also fine.

But both those examples aren’t the same as mass mandatory vaccination of a resident population.

[mikema63]

Regardless of whether or not you feel they are the same mandatory vaccination of the populace is the only sensible public health policy on vaccines.

[Drlee]

But both those examples aren’t the same as mass mandatory vaccination of a resident population.

Mike has it right. I favor mandatory vaccination. I also believe that the religious exemption should have the same caveats as does the religious exemption from fighting in a war. Remember that someone who opposes fighting for religious purposes still must serve. In other words, he is not 'off the hook' with regards to the consequences of participating in our society. I have no problem applying the same standards to failing to be vaccinated for religious purposes. In extreme times, such as a pandemic, I have no problem isolating those who will not be vaccinated from others so that their (misplaced in my opinion) religious beliefs do not make them a hazard to the population in general.

The thing is Ness, that there is a level of acceptable risk beyond which the convenience of individuals is subordinated to those of the group. If you look at school children as a "resident population" we are already using mandatory vaccination almost universally.

[ness31]

Time to resurrect this bastard thread

I read Drlee’s last post on Christmas Eve when I returned home blind drunk and philosophical. The response I sought to cobble together sounded very much like I was channeling Hindsite (twas in the spirit of Christmas ) but I couldn’t get the mouse or anything technological to work. Clearly it was a sign that I should wait till I was sober.

Upon reading that last passage about children being a resident population and “we are already using mandatory vaccinations almost universally” I thought “ you smug SOB”.
Then, I remembered a biblical quote (and this is where I got all Hindesity) about barren women being blessed. Turns out it was Luke 23:28-31 and it was when they were crucifying Jesus. He told the women not worry about him, but to worry about themselves and their children. Why? Because if that was the kind of shit the authorities were pulling off when times were good, how would they treat people when times were tough?

So at this point the subject has clarified for me and it’s just another harbinger for the others that will proceed it..as usual.

If you believe in personal freedoms then it’s limits are always tested, and it’s happening more frequently with seemingly more firepower behind it.

So it’s off to court we go to keep the litigious community well stocked of clientele.

Unconscionable.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

Your personal freedoms end when the lives of others are put at risk. Refusing to be vaccinated, but still intermingling with people, is shamefully callous towards the health and safety of others. It literally signals that person doesn't care about anyone but themselves.

It's more than a bit rich to compare the Biblical suffering of Jesus or the persecution, torture, abuse, and murder of innocent people to mandatory vaccination programs. There is no comparison to be made between them.

[ness31]

You lot say the same stuff over and over again, as if there is an automated response to certain topics on PoFo.

I get it, personal freedom ends when others are endangered Smoking is bad, drugs are a cancer on society. WE GET IT!!

But no one as of yet has hashed out, in fine detail, what would happen if parents had to start paying for their children’s immunisation causing a sudden and sharp decline in vaccine uptake. It’s a perfectly valid scenario none of you has addressed. Quantify that ever so fucking dangerous danger to me! ‘scuse the language, but I’m tired of being talked down to when it’s really not justified.

Also, I’d bet 50 Mexican pesos you didn’t even read the passage I quoted. The force isn’t strong with this one folks *laughs mockingly at Bulaba*.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

I read your OP. My initial response in this thread addressed your idea of making people pay for their vaccinations. It's a terrible, awful idea. There's a reason why most of the people in this thread have addressed that, and responded to anti-vaxxer horseshit (@Sivad posting pseudo-science by discredited hacks making up bullshit and getting caught, for instance), and why people, such as Drlee and myself, strongly agree with mandatory vaccination.

I haven't talked down to you at all, to my knowledge. You're a grown adult, and I have no interest in treating you like a child, or masking my language when I feel strongly about something. I am not talking to you when I talk about people who are unvaccinated. I have no idea if you are vaccinated or not, and it isn't my business to know (since I'm not your employer or anything like that). Parents who don't vaccinate their children are neglectful, abusive parents. People who aren't vaccinated, or don't vaccinate their children, but still intermingle with lots of people in public settings are both dangerous idiots and callously disregarding the safety of others.

Expressing those views =/= talking down to you.

I feel the exact same way if someone insisted it was a matter of personal liberty and freedom to drive a car while drunk or high, or drive without a license as a number of insane Sovereign Citizens here in the US do. Or, for that matter, for someone to insist on being able to do whatever they want, with total disregard for the safety of others.

Additionally, it's similar to a situation where someone insists compulsory education for children infringes on a person's individual liberty. It's silly and ridiculous in the same way the above examples are idiotic.

[ness31]

I read your OP. My initial response in this thread addressed your idea of making people pay for their vaccinations. It's a terrible, awful idea. There's a reason why most of the people in this thread have addressed that, and responded to anti-vaxxer horseshit (@Sivad posting pseudo-science by discredited hacks making up bullshit and getting caught, for instance), and why people, such as Drlee and myself, strongly agree with mandatory vaccination.

I haven't talked down to you at all, to my knowledge. You're a grown adult, and I have no interest in treating you like a child, or masking my language when I feel strongly about something. I am not talking to you when I talk about people who are unvaccinated. I have no idea if you are vaccinated or not, and it isn't my business to know (since I'm not your employer or anything like that). Parents who don't vaccinate their children are neglectful, abusive parents. People who aren't vaccinated, or don't vaccinate their children, but still intermingle with lots of people in public settings are both dangerous idiots and callously disregarding the safety of others.

Expressing those views =/= talking down to you.

a) Awful idea or not -it’s still a legit question and scenario. Asking what the consequences would be were there a change in policy is neither ridiculous or far fetched.

b) re-read your posts. I did

[ingliz]

Quantify that ever so fucking dangerous danger

According to this study, fifteen of 237 hospitalized children with measles required intensive care in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit.

Complications during treatment included pneumothorax in four patients, fibrosing alveolitis in one, brain infarct in one, thrombus formation in three, and nosocomial sepsis in one. Four patients had long-term sequelae (chronic lung disease, subacute sclerosing panencephalitis, hemiplegia, and partial amputation of a limb), and seven patients recovered uneventfully. Four patients died; all had adult respiratory distress syndrome, three had pneumothorax, and one had nosocomial sepsis.

[B0ycey]

a) Awful idea or not -it’s still a legit question and scenario. Asking what the consequences would be were there a change in policy is neither ridiculous or far fetched.

The short answer - which has already been addressed btw, would be more people catching the virus (ie more potential deaths).

[ness31]

According to this study, fifteen of 237 hospitalized children with measles required intensive care in the Pediatric Intensive Care Unit.

Well this just won’t do when, according to Drlee “we are already using mandatory vaccinations almost universally”. So let’s have it. I’d like my universally collected data, thanks.

The short answer - which has already been addressed btw, would be more people catching the virus (ie more potential deaths).

And this won’t do either as the individuals rights are impacted so much that people who don’t vaccinate are maligned as criminals.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

You want everyone to do the learning/research for you and provide publicly-available data on medicine, vaccines, and illness? Throughout this thread alone are a handful of links by myself, Drlee, and others to information on both basic understanding of how medicine/vaccines work, and more academic information. You've already literally stated you don't know much about how medicine works, let alone vaccines; why should people waste their time posting links to basic articles/information if you aren't willing to read or learn anything about how medicine works?

[Drlee]

What Baluba said.

There is no question about what would happen if fewer people were vaccinated. We can see it in countries with low vaccination rates. We can see it in historical data. These data are unambiguous.

So, yet again, we are answering the question we have already answered. Two things happen when vaccination rates for communicable diseases go down. More people become ill. As it is now, people who for medical reasons should not be vaccinated, get some considerable protection from what is called 'herd immunity'. Simply put, if you are not vaccinated but are in contact with people who almost always are, you have little chance on catching the disease. This is good for some of the most vulnerable people. The religious exemption can be absorbed in some populations provided that there are not too many participants.

Now you have your wheels stuck in some notion that requiring parents to pay for vaccines is a good idea. You have yet to articulate why you think this is "better" except for some vague notion that vaccines are connected with personal freedom in some way. People with your notion of personal freedom diminish what is important about the concept. They attach the concept to ideas, like vaccinations, that seem to forward the belief that there is no personal responsibility to the group in which they live. I disagree. If you want to argue that you should be allowed to be a Nazi then I am with you. You are allowed to hold any belief you want. If you want the 'right' to spend your money on hang-gliding then fire away. I support you. If you wish to extend your personal freedom 'rights' to acts that harm other people in the society then I am opposed.

This is a concern I have about the right these days. The idea that they are special snowflakes who do not owe responsibility to other citizens. The idiots who maintain that 'taxes are theft' and that Social security = socialism are a disgrace to the right. The so-called libertarians who mistake selfishness for liberty.

In a bad flood you can escape in your personal boat. You are not required to rescue others as you flee. Do not expect me to respect that choice. Our founders were all about our responsibility to others. They did not mistake selfishness for liberty.

[ness31]

Show me where I said this. Literally.

You've already literally stated you don't know much about how medicine works, let alone vaccines;

@Drlee You’ve repeated yourself. Again.

Therefore I will repeat myself again. There has not been sufficient evidence presented to justify the coercion of parents vaccinating their children.

Stop the third world immigrants coming and going from their homelands and bringing their diseases back with them. Isolate travelers who could import said diseases. But don’t tar everyone in a resident population (which happen to be school kids from your own admission) with the same large pharmaceutical brush.

Thalidomide anyone?