[AFAIK]

People enjoy novelty and internet porn allows you to masturbate to different images every time.This reduces the incentive to put the time and effort into interacting with real people and dealing with rejection, discomfort and inconvenience.

Read up on porn addiction and the no fap movement if you're interested.

[Godstud]

That it's selfish, keeps you isolated, and doesn't help you to develop real relationships with other people?

Masturbating doesn't take THAT long.

And yet virtually every doctor and health expert in the world will tell you that masturbation is normal, natural, and healthy.

Because it's a biological fact, that has nothing to do with psychology. A psychologist might argue that too much can be a bad thing.

I just don't see hardly any difference between masturbating to your own imaginary thoughts and masturbating to actual images on a screen. One's just more vivid than the other.

Not arguing with you, there.

Still, I doubt people are thinking about someone being exploited when watching a porn video where the people in it are consenting adults.

This reduces the incentive to put the time and effort into interacting with real people and dealing with rejection, discomfort and inconvenience.

Ummm... Do you have a source to support your opinion?

Real sex(between consenting adults) beats masturbation any day of the week.

Read up on porn addiction and the no fap movement if you're interested.

There are always people who take things to the extreme, get obsessed, or abuse things. Just because nymphomaniacs exist doesn't make sex bad, right?

[Agent Steel]

Masturbating doesn't take THAT long.

I know, but it gives you a sexual release, and wouldn't that hinder your abilities to reach orgasm while you're with a real woman? You said porn is bad because it takes away from developing real relationships. So then, you must also think masturbation is bad, because it does the same thing, right?

[AFAIK]

Ummm... Do you have a source to support your opinion?

Yes, the no fap movement that I mentioned and you quoted me mentioning. They have a discussion page on reddit.

[Victoribus Spolia]

[Drlee]

I know, but it gives you a sexual release, and wouldn't that hinder your abilities to reach orgasm while you're with a real woman?

Why would it? People have sex when they want to.

You said porn is bad because it takes away from developing real relationships. So then, you must also think masturbation is bad, because it does the same thing, right?

This has been a really interesting thread. Some obversations:

Porn is the genie out of the bottle. There is no putting it back in. The problem arose when the courts, quite correctly, discovered that it is devilishly difficult to even define what is pornographic. Someone mentioned midget porn. Is that "more pornographic" than amateur porn? What is the height limit before we get into kink? What about violence in porn? Is tying a guy to a chair and blowing him "worse" than tying him to a chair and beating him in a Bond movie? There is some pretty outrageous stuff out there but the thing that defines pornography is nakedness for the most part. The sex part not the shocking part. Show a baby sucking a boob and you get ahhhhhhh's all around. Let a 30 year old do it and someone wants you to show your ID just to watch him.

Before we can really get to the bottom of the issue of porn we seriously have to answer two questions.

1. What is it? Are all films of men having sex with men porn? Is it possible for a movie to show tasteful but graphic sex? What is tasteful? If the neighbor lady has a kink for wet suits and nazi uniforms, who is harmed by that? Talking about that 12 year old so many of you are wringing your hands for....Do you want to keep him off German beaches? Is it nakedness that you want him not to see? Again. When does tasteful nudity become porn. And more importantly. What age is one when they are damaged by nudity? And if you are not talking about nudity, then you are OK with nudity in parks, and by people of all ages? Complicated when we try to some essential morality on this subject.

2. This is the bigger question. Why is porn so outrageously popular? Check this out:

Forbes:


● In 2010, out of the million most popular (most trafficked) websites in the world, 42,337 were sex-related sites. That's about 4% of sites.

● From July 2009 to July 2010, about 13% of Web searches were for erotic content.

Wow. I have a real problem trying to get my head around controlling something so popular so always. Left handed magazines were popular in my youth. Stag movies too. All that has really changed is the means of consumption. It is simply easier to get.

But what about children and their access to porn. I am siding with the parental responsibility side of the argument. And by this I do not only mean the enforced abstinence side of the house. Net Nanny is fine but it is not air tight. Then there is always access at some other house. So stay with me on this:

You can talk to your son and daughter about sex. You can tell them that you favor abstinence. Abstinence until when? 13? 16? 18? They fall in love and get married to a heterosexual partner and want to have kids? Where is the line? Look at it this way. What age would you let your son carry condoms? 13? 16? 18? When would you buy them for him? At what age would you let your daughter get on the pill?

My point is that we are already making much harder decisions than porn yet something about it gets us lathered up. I am not advocating for children watching porn. Just the opposite. But it is almost inevitable that they will be able to and probably frequently. If not at home then elsewhere. And you, parents, had better be talking to them about it in a frank and understanding way.

Just to be clear about one thing that has not been said this way yet....Masturbation IS sex. You tell your kids all about intercourse, yet we are appalled that we might have to talk to them about another kind of sex.

I am unconvinced that porn harms socialization. Do some young men not relate to young women because they watch porn too much? Come on. What young man has ever related to a young woman? They are just learning. And here is the deep dark secret. They will never stop learning. And if they do THAT is the real shame.

Relationships, sexual and otherwise, are not about averages, trends and generalizations. They exist and are about two or more people interacting. They are not about "a girl" they are about Sarah. I was oh so many years a bachelor. 55 actually. And I acted like one. But then along came the missus and SHE changed everything. Relationships are about individuals.

If I watch granny porn that is age appropriate? If I watch someone 20 is that sick? I liked 18 year old girls when I was 18. Why is it wrong to think they are sexy now? What changed? Don't tell me that sexual attraction operates on a sort of age determined scale. Yet in some odd way it does. Sexual fantasies frequently are an expression of the art of the possible. Just like a movie with an absurd plot device, it is hard to immerse yourself in the story (fantasy) if you cannot imagine it to be somehow possible.

I have visited and lived in places that are sexually repressed (yes I am pointing to you Utah) and those whose openness defies credulity (Copenhagen in the 70's.) Though I have really careful limits on what I would watch and abhor any kind of material that exploits "innocent" victims, I am going with permissive rather than repressive. If the industry is exploitative then that is a problem with which to be dealt. But when it comes to government control of what we adults are allowed to see then I will put my foot down. We need a less intrusive government, not more intrusive. What people do at home staring at a screen is their business.

[Godstud]

Good points, @Drlee

Yes, the no fap movement that I mentioned and you quoted me mentioning. They have a discussion page on reddit.

I don't want you pointing to some forum and asking me to read it. Post an actual source or study. I don't feel like reading another 100 people's opinions on reddit...

I find the very idea of a "No fap" movement, to be absolutely ridiculous. Even married men masturbate when the wife's away, it's that time of the month(for them), or just when you damned well feel like it. It, in no way, cheapens consensual sex with your partner.

[Agent Steel]

@Drlee If you achieve a sexual release via imaginary thoughts about women, doesn't that take away from your ability to develop relationships with real women?

[Godstud]

I'll answer that. No, because reality is better than some imagined fantasy, because reality is real. You cannot truly simulate it, even in your mind.

[Drlee]

Drlee If you achieve a sexual release via imaginary thoughts about women, doesn't that take away from your ability to develop relationships with real women?

Not for me. And I think the danger is overstated. People engage in fantasy all day long. We run fantasies as the backdrop to all of our daily activities. Question. How many women to you have fantasies about compared to the ones with which you actually develop a relationship? Every time a man or woman visits the mall he or she engages in a series of fantasies about just about every attractive person they see. Every time I am cut off in traffic I imagine taking some sort of dire revenge on the cutter but I know and live the difference between fantasy and real life.

Let me take you on a trip for a moment. Suppose someone watches a lot of BDSM porn. They come to really like the idea and want to try it. There is only a problem if they want to try it with an unwilling partner. Right? If they find a like-minded individual who wants to play then no harm no foul. It is all about harm. Of course if this hypothetical BDSM aficionado goes to the local bingo hall and tells the old ladies that he would like to tie them up his success rate may be a tad small. On the other hand, there are bars in my home town where such activities are the norm. I know professional people who engage in these activities all the time.

Agent steel, you used a term that I would recommend you consider for a few minutes. You said, "develop relationships with real women". The key word here is "develop". There are many kinds of relationships. You can pick a girl up in a bar, take her home, have sex and let her do the 5AM walk of shame never to see her again. (Never rule out the possibility that she was exploiting you just as much or more than you were exploiting her.) Then there are relationships that you "develop". These are learning experiences for sure but they are also teaching experiences. You are teaching her about what you like and she is teaching you about what she likes. The idea is not necessarily to find one sexual formula that always works for the two of you. She may let you paint yourself blue and dress like a pants-less smurf every once in a while if you let her dress like a meter maid and "arrest" you. But most of the time you may just learn to have comfortable sex of some sort.

My personal opinion is that it is a real cool thing to have a sexually adventurous partner. Even life partner. There is much to be said for spice in a relationship. Even at 70 it just might be cool to go skinny dipping on a deserted beach or stop the elevator between floors for a bit of the old in-out. Sound gross to you? it won't some day I can assure you. Let me give you a suggestion to consider. Stay in great physical shape. There is no reason for an older person to be out of shape through sloth and laziness. Want to kill your sex drive? Get out of shape. I can do 40+ pushups in two minutes. (real ones) The average for my age is 9-12. Think about that. And why do you think older people want to stay slim, trim and in shape? So they can keep going on the relationship they "developed".

Will watching porn stop you from developing relationships? I don't think so. What stops people from developing relationships most often are two things. Cowardice and complacence. They are either too afraid or too lazy to actually do the work necessary.

I assume you like women. Keep this in mind. When you are trying to establish a relationship with a woman (or she with you) you are asking a great deal from her. You are asking her to take an interest in your life and person, devote her valuable time to you and expose her inner feelings and vulnerabilities to you. That is a lot. You don't just stumble into that. It doesn't happen over a few beers. It takes time. The fact you rubbed one off to Bombay Backsliders that morning is not going to be the deciding factor in whether or not you develop that relationship you are looking for. AMIRITE?

[AFAIK]

I don't want you pointing to some forum and asking me to read it. Post an actual source or study. I don't feel like reading another 100 people's opinions on reddit...

I find the very idea of a "No fap" movement, to be absolutely ridiculous. Even married men masturbate when the wife's away, it's that time of the month(for them), or just when you damned well feel like it. It, in no way, cheapens consensual sex with your partner.

I don't have a source since I'm just speaking anecdotally here. Do you want me to google it and post whatever link comes up without reading it or would you rather look for it yourself?

I agree with your assessment and I sit in the 'all things in moderation' boat. Some people have difficulty moderating their behaviour though and prefer to abstain completely.

[Ter]

What is the difference between having sex and masturbating?
It is the same thing but with sex you meet people.

[JohnRawls]

I think the "no fap movement" is a conspiracy to increase the profits of the courtesan industry

[Agent Steel]

@Godstud I completely agree that reality is better than fantasy. But again, I can use the exact same reasoning to argue that pornography, being that it is a fantasy and not real, does absolutely nothing to take away from one's ability to develop a relationship with a real woman. Furthermore, I can even make a strong case that pornography actually ENHANCES my real life relationships with women, since I know EXACTLY what I'll be getting into.

That Gail Dines woman talked about how the world of pornography somehow controls you or some shit like that. It's the exact opposite way around. We control what our preferences are, we search for things we like, and if you know what you're into then you're getting the most out of your sexual experience.

[XogGyux]

Lets be honest. The core of the issue is not whether it is healthy or not (whether physically or psychologically). The issues are deep, repressed guilt that people feel from arbitrary morals, usually based on tradition/religion practice. That's the same reason why masturbation, homosexuality, polygamy, porn, prostitution is seen as by some as bad/amoral/unhealthy/illegal?
It is all about perspective and our pre-conceived bias. For instance, I remember when I was in high school, at a boarding school. The "boys" would try to sneak into the girls quarters and try to see them naked. The whole attitude towards that behavior from the adults (both faculty and even parents) was to somehow criticize it, condemn it but still kind of accept it in a "boys would be boys" kind of attitude. This can readily be seen in many movies from just 20-30 years ago (perhaps it is still viewed as "kind of normal" even today, I don't know I have been out of high school for 15+ years so I don't know , I sure hope it does not happen anymore). That which I just described is clearly wrong and far more "unhealthy" than porn/masturbation/etc. And the reason for that is because those "boys" are violating the girls' privacy and trust. There is NOTHING wrong with a guy watching a naked girl, or a girl, watching a naked guy, assuming it is consensual BOTH ways. This can be extrapolated to any other kind of act. I simply don't care if you want to have sex with 1 guy, 10, or 100. If you want to watch an orgy on TV, in real life or participate in one so long all participants are adults and willing.
We need to stop judging people for what they do, like or enjoy as long as they are not harming anyone in the process. You want to be a prostitute and get easy money for having sex with guys? I don't care, do it, do it legally so you get some freaking healthcare and regular STD screening and pay some taxes.... rather than just do it illegally, get people chlamydia/gnorrhea and the money goes to the lazy, bully pimp that spends it in bling bling, guns and drugs.

[One Degree]

The arguments have already been excellently made by others. Pornography has always been a part of human society. We all have different levels of acceptance. Don’t go to the sites you find objectionable and you won’t be offended.
You can’t prevent people from doing harmful stuff by trying to censor what they can look at. They will draw pictures on cave walls if nothing else is available.

Edit: My objection to the internet is the lack of soft porn sites.

[Wellsy]

Do like the emphasis on fantasy to sexuality as human beings have long sepwrated themselves from the immediacy of the natural (although shapes by humans) world and has culture imposed on it.
https://www.cla.purdue.edu/english/theory/psychoanalysis/lacandesire.html

GIVEN MAN'S RELIANCE ON LANGUAGE for entrance into the symbolic order (see the Lacan module on psychosexual development), it is not surprising that, according to Lacan, we are not even in control of our own desires since those desires are themselves as separated from our actual bodily needs as the phallus is separated from any biological penis. For this reason, Lacan suggests that, whereas the zero form of sexuality for animals is copulation, the zero form of sexuality for humans is masturbation. The act of sex for humans is so much caught up in our fantasies (our idealized images of both ourselves and our sexual partners) that it is ultimately narcissistic. As Lacan puts it, "That's what love is. It's one's own ego that one loves in love, one's own ego made real on the imaginary level" (Freud's Papers 142). Because we are working on the level of fantasy construction, it is quite easy for love to turn into disgust, for example when a lover is confronted with his love-object's body in all its materiality (moles, pimples, excretions, etc.), the sorts of things that would have no effect on animal copulation. By entering into the symbolic order (with its laws, conventions, and images for perfection), the human subject effectively divorces him/herself from the materiality of his/her bodily drives, which Lacan tends to distinguish with the term "jouissance."Note Through the Law (which we come to acknowledge by way of the Oedipus complex), the human subject effectively chooses culture over nature: "The primordial Law is therefore that which in regulating marriage ties superimposes the kingdom of culture on that of nature abandoned to the law of copulation" (40). That Law, for Lacan, is "identical to an order of Language" (40), specifically what he terms the symbolic order and it is supported by the symbolic fiction of the "Name-of-the-Father."

Desire, in other words, has little to do with material sexuality for Lacan; it is caught up, rather, in social structures and strictures, in the fantasy version of reality that forever dominated our lives after our entrance into language. For this reason, Lacan writes that "the unconscious is the discourse of the Other." Even our unconscious desires are, in other words, organized by the linguistic system that Lacan terms the symbolic order or "the big Other." In a sense, then, our desire is never properly our own, but is created through fantasies that are caught up in cultural ideologies rather than material sexuality. For this reason, according to Lacan, the command that the superego directs to the subject is, of all things, "Enjoy!" That which we may believe to be most private and rebellious (our desire) is, in fact, regulated, even commanded, by the superego.

In constructing our fantasy-version of reality, we establish coordinates for our desire; we situate both ourselves and our object of desire, as well as the relation between. As Slavoj Zizek puts it, "through fantasy, we learn how to desire" (Looking Awry 6). Our desires therefore necessarily rely on lack, since fantasy, by definition, does not correspond to anything in the real. Our object of desire (what Lacan terms the "objet petit a") is a way for us to establish coordinates for our own desire. At the heart of desire is a misregognition of fullness where there is really nothing but a screen for our own narcissistic projections. It is that lack at the heart of desire that ensures we continue to desire. To come too close to our object of desire threatens to uncover the lack that is, in fact, necessary for our desire to persist, so that, ultimately, desire is most interested not in fully attaining the object of desire but in keeping our distance, thus allowing desire to persist. Because desire is articulated through fantasy, it is driven to some extent by its own impossibility.

[Agent Steel]

@One Degree I have never had a problem finding soft porn sites. I'm honestly not into regular porn. Granted soft porn is far less common but there is plenty of it on the internet, believe me.

[Agent Steel]

In fact the stuff that I'm into hardly goes beyond the limits of what's acceptable on this site.

[One Degree]

I have never looked very hard, but my tastes are along the lines of Lady Chatterly which means they are barely porn by today’s standards. If their is no story line, then I don’t get the attraction. Must be my feminine side.