Should healthcare and education be free? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15057063
@ness31 So you're feeling a bit down.



Don't be a Negative Nancy. The world's a heck of a lot better than it was 100 years ago, despite what people think, sometimes.
#15057064
Agent Steel wrote:I don't know where to start. I feel like I've looked into many different points from both sides and I see good points on both sides.

I'm just looking for someone to help me understand which position I should take.


Sorry, I have never came across any good points for paying for health and education. Mainly because it increases costs due to them being essential services (supply and demand) and you know... profit. Please provide any and I will explain why they are wrong.

I think @SSDR has said it perfectly but ultimately in terms of state enhancement, and educated society is an improved society and pricing education limits this to class and hence limits this improvement. And health shouldn't be a lottery and those with the losing ticket will testify this to your face. If you happen to pick up a losing ticket and poor in America you'll soon see what side of this fence you should be sitting on.
#15057078
Pants-of-dog wrote:Cuba can do it on the budget of a developing country.


Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc.. Especially those doctors that are sent overseas. I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.

My point is, the truth is never clear cut. There are pros and cons to everything. Cuban isn't perfect, nor is Europe, nor is the US.

Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand.


If you like the status quo, you would actually support free education and free healthcare. Here's why:

Free education allows those in the lower classes to have a chance at getting out of their situation. Thus, they are less likely to cause unrest. Because, hey, they do have opportunities, so why fuck that up? Same goes with healthcare, if even the poorest are getting the healthcare they need, they will not want to fuck that up either. Effectively, free education and healthcare will pacify poor people. This prevents them from fucking it up for those that are in the higher socioeconomic classes.

My thesis is, that by offering free education and free healthcare, we can continue to maintain the current overall system. Hence, conservatives should really support this. The alternative is the path we are on now. Which leads to more inequality and more unhappiness among the lower classes, and eventually.... revolution.

Basically, the current mainstream conservative position will encourage the dramatic change they don't want, where as the current mainstream liberal position will actually maintain the status quo that they don't want. :lol: Both side have it EXACTLY backwards.

This is why I support free healthcare and education. I also argue that supporting these is actually more conservative than liberal (in the American sense of those words).

With respect to healthcare and education, I am a true conservative by supporting them. :lol:
#15057126
Rancid wrote:Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc.. Especially those doctors that are sent overseas. I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.

My point is, the truth is never clear cut. There are pros and cons to everything. Cuban isn't perfect, nor is Europe, nor is the US.



If you like the status quo, you would actually support free education and free healthcare. Here's why:

Free education allows those in the lower classes to have a chance at getting out of their situation. Thus, they are less likely to cause unrest. Because, hey, they do have opportunities, so why fuck that up? Same goes with healthcare, if even the poorest are getting the healthcare they need, they will not want to fuck that up either. Effectively, free education and healthcare will pacify poor people. This prevents them from fucking it up for those that are in the higher socioeconomic classes.

My thesis is, that by offering free education and free healthcare, we can continue to maintain the current overall system. Hence, conservatives should really support this. The alternative is the path we are on now. Which leads to more inequality and more unhappiness among the lower classes, and eventually.... revolution.

Basically, the current mainstream conservative position will encourage the dramatic change they don't want, where as the current mainstream liberal position will actually maintain the status quo that they don't want. :lol: Both side have it EXACTLY backwards.

This is why I support free healthcare and education. I also argue that supporting these is actually more conservative than liberal (in the American sense of those words).

With respect to healthcare and education, I am a true conservative by supporting them. :lol:


I am 100% in for free college for people that are academically gifted and poor. There is no point in offering free tuition to to people that are not college material. Give them free tuition for votech.

Medicare for all would work better than Medicare for the old and disabled. By definition everybody in the Medicare pool is sick and hence the system loses a lot of money. Private insurance makes money by insuring young healthy people. I say move those healthy people to the Medicare insurance pool and medicare could actually make money to pay for the old and disabled.

Or simply take health insurance (the middle man) out of the equation and do what Kaiser does. Have patients buy coverage directly from the providers and not the middle man (who provides zero care).
#15057142
Julian658 wrote:I am 100% in for free college for people that are academically gifted and poor. There is no point in offering free tuition to to people that are not college material. Give them free tuition for votech.


I agree, we should not lower the bar to get into college, that is for sure. EVeryone else can go to trade school.
#15057150
ness31 wrote:The reality is that we have an aging population that will bleed us dry.

But it’s okay. Karma will deal with them.



Sweetie, you sound as if you've got the blues. I hope it passes quickly.

Now, that aging population...they, and those no longer winning with us gave our society a treasure-trove of goods and knowledge and services. They've fought wars, financed education, medical care, the infrastructure for themselves and for those who follow. The roads, tunnels, ferries, even the sidewalks that children skateboard to their schools for their free education was paid for by those senior to them. They paid for hospitals, medical research which lead to new drugs, new methodology for procedures eg from x-rays to transplants, cat scans, pet scans etc. The list is long. I gather you too are on the over 27 list, off the freebies list, and on the chip-in-for-the-common-good list. So am i. So is mom. She pays more in taxes than most workers earn. (Edit: this sounds rather grand, but it's statistically true due to wage surpression)

Even when we lived in caves, it is within our nature to be caring, sharing hunters' goods, minding the children of others etc. And they cared for the disabled and elderly. Paying taxes is easier to swallow if you consider the good they do.

Chin up, lovie.
#15057151
Yes and yes. Why would things that benefit all not be good things?

Rancid wrote:Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.


Not sure how what POD said about Cuban healthcare = getting "carried away".

But since you mentioned that, in Cuba all Cubans have free healthcare and Cuba shares its medical resources around the world. In America tens of millions don't have healthcare because they're too poor, people are killed because of that, made bankrupt, commit suicide etc. and America's involvement in healthcare around the world seems to so far be limited to sometimes bombing hospitals and more recently, helping with the selling off of the NHS to U.S. healthcare companies.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc..


Citation needed.

I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.


Your anecdote about Western propaganda on Cuba was amusing to read.
#15057393
Ter wrote:Health care and education (including university) are free or almost free in many European countries.
The people benefiting from this are paying through their income tax, which amounts to 50% and more depending on the level of income.
I used to pay 53% of my basic income as income tax when I used to work for my government.
There are rules and limits in free health care.
For instance, persons above the age of 64 are not entitled to kidney transplants (that is just one example I happen to know about because I overheard a conversation).
Thank you for reading and continue your deliberations.


How much money do you make?
#15057403
Let me start by dismissing out of hand Ness31's ideas about old people. His position is absurd. He would have me die rather than pay for my health care but I spent a goodly part of today providing health care for people much younger than I. I employ young people. Unless I miss my guess, probably pay more in taxes than he earns. Suffice it to say that one day he will be older and his perspective will change. Note for Ter. About a quarter of kidney transplants in the US are in people over 65. All other things being equal they actually do better than younger people in the area of rejection. Kidney transplants save money in the long haul..

Health care is too important to leave in the hands of free enterprise. They had their shot and they blew it. The question is far more complicated than trying to figure out who uses more services. Universal health care offers many advantages not usually considered by those taking a cursory look. There are economies of scale which is even more profound in rural settings. There are economies of scaling that eliminate redundancy in congested markets. There is the value of preventive care. There are mental health costs associated by long term concerns about medical care and the issue of paying for it. (Didn't think about that...most of you.) So universal health care serves us all. For the conservatives perhaps they can take comfort in the fact that the savings a single payer system will provide will be stimulative.

With regards to education I think we are forgetting that we have already decided this. We have had "free" public schools forever. When we hear this question most of us here assume we are speaking of university educations. What is the difference between 12th grade and 13th grade? One is free the other bloody expensive. And if college is not a foregone conclusion it will change the focus of High School....or ought to.

Education in the US is simply far too expensive and ought to be taxpayer funded. Students should get two shots at succeeding in college. One at the taxpayer's expense and succeeding tries at their own expense.
#15057404
@Drlee

I know when I become a senior citizen and I am old, I hope people treat me well and don't just let me die un-necessarily. I honestly and genuinely think it's very important to take care of our elderly and be sure they have decent healthcare so that they can live long, happy lives. Our elderly deserve to be happy and healthy. None of us of course are going to live forever. But still, our society owes it to our elderly to be sure they get the best healthcare available so they can live long happy lives. I don't mind paying taxes to ensure that. When I ran my own business for 7 years, I actually went out of my way to pay taxes as I wanted to contribute. I didn't try to find fancy ways to dodge taxes or any sort of thing like that, like some business folks do. I felt much better as a business man contributing towards social security, medicare and paying federal income taxes on my share of the business profits. Plus my company paid a ton of money in taxes to various different states as well as licensing fees.
#15057741
Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand. I need help. Can someone please help me figure out the answer to this question?


I think both should be completely free, but free education is going to need some sort of contract between the payer/payee, the keep the price down.
#15068992
There are some good reasons for education to be paid:
- everything free tends to be abused, free education means universities get fill up by slackers
- foreign students have to pay, they cannot be educated at the expense of locals
- student debt forces students to stay in the country to repay debt - prevents loss of talent (rich countries). If loss of talent is unavoidable (poor countries) then at least cost of education will be repaid.
- with paid education students will tend to avoid poorly paid disciplines and focus on what's needed in the country

But paid education can hurt poor students and middle class, even with scholarships. I'm afraid there is no single correct solution for this problem. In Europe we tend to give everyone a fair chance to succeed and get free education.
#15068998
Fokker wrote: everything free tends to be abused, free education means universities get fill up by slackers
Do you have evidence to support this ridiculous assumption? There is no evidence that a person having shit grades cannot be expelled, or even refused access. This happens in PAID institutions, already. Even having the money doesn't guarantee access unless you can prove you aren't simply going to coast thru, and "slack off".

Fokker wrote: foreign students have to pay, they cannot be educated at the expense of locals
There is no suggestion that students loans are available to any but citizens of said country.

Fokker wrote:student debt forces students to stay in the country to repay debt - prevents loss of talent (rich countries). If loss of talent is unavoidable (poor countries) then at least cost of education will be repaid.
Someone can leave anytime they want and abandon their debt, if they are a foreign student. I don't think foreigners can GET students loans, however. Do you have evidence to support that this happens?

Fokker wrote:In Europe we tend to give everyone a fair chance to succeed and get free education.
Yes, and most are very cheap.
Here are 10 countries that offer excellent education almost free of cost for international students:
Germany. When it comes to excellent higher education at minimal or no cost, Germany tops the list. ...
Norway. ...
Sweden. ...
Austria. ...
Finland. ...
France. ...
Belgium. ...
Greece.

5 Countries With Virtually Free College Tuition
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... uition.asp
#15069007
Godstud wrote:Do you have evidence to support this ridiculous assumption? There is no evidence that a person having shit grades cannot be expelled, or even refused access. This happens in PAID institutions, already. Even having the money doesn't guarantee access unless you can prove you aren't simply going to coast thru, and "slack off".

It happened a lot at my university. People extending their studies for several years, for no good reason. Many not turning up for lectures, learning only just before the exams. Cheating during exams. Others working full time during their time at university - their goal was to get diploma, not really learn anything. Universities get paid by amount of students and are not interested in resolving the problem. It's not a problem to coast through universities if you are not dumb.

I have no problem with small university fees. What I have problem with is fees subsequently being raised to crippling levels.

Godstud wrote:Someone can leave anytime they want and abandon their debt, if they are a foreign student. I don't think foreigners can GET students loans, however. Do you have evidence to support that this happens?


The statement you quoted for your answer had nothing to do with foreign students. You got probably confused by the previous quote.

Godstud wrote:Yes, and most are very cheap.
Here are 10 countries that offer excellent education almost free of cost for international students:
Germany. When it comes to excellent higher education at minimal or no cost, Germany tops the list. ...
Norway. ...
Sweden. ...
Austria. ...
Finland. ...
France. ...
Belgium. ...
Greece.


There are stories of Americans studying in Europe, but there is one catch - they have to speak the local language at sufficient level. Studying in foreign language is not easy at all. If it's not a STEM subject, you're screwed.
#15069016
Can you provide evidence that foreign students are even capable of getting student loans?

I know a guy who slacked off so much that he had to get a degree from another school before they would allow him to get his university degree. Slackers are dealt with, already. Having free education would not change that. Education may be free, but it's still a privilege, and not a right.
#15069023
Godstud wrote:Can you provide evidence that foreign students are even capable of getting student loans?


I see no reason for that as I never claimed that foreign students are eligible for them.

Godstud wrote:I know a guy who slacked off so much that he had to get a degree from another school before they would allow him to get his university degree. Slackers are dealt with, already. Having free education would not change that. Education may be free, but it's still a privilege, and not a right.


It's your choice whether to believe me. I have different experience and no reason to make up false claims. I believe your experience is different, but it will vary from country to country. There are more ways to deal with slackers, university fees is not the only one.
#15069027
Maybe I misunderstood your statements. Nevertheless...

Fokker wrote:foreign students have to pay, they cannot be educated at the expense of locals
You were implying that foreign students would get free schooling. How did you come to this assumption? No one is saying foreign students should be getting free education. I'd be against this, as it'd be very open to abuse.


Having rules against simply taking 10 years to finish a degree, are already in place, in most institutions.

Fokker wrote:student debt forces students to stay in the country to repay debt - prevents loss of talent (rich countries). If loss of talent is unavoidable (poor countries) then at least cost of education will be repaid.
It's not as simple to change citizenship as you'd like to imply, and having debt doesn't guarantee anything.

Fokker wrote:with paid education students will tend to avoid poorly paid disciplines and focus on what's needed in the country
That's as simple as setting quotas on specific degrees or courses, and thereby guiding students towards careers that are needed, and more valuable.

There are a great many options, even with free educatoin to prevent abuse of the system.
#15069028
Godstud wrote:No one is saying foreign students should be getting free education. I'd be against this, as it'd be very open to abuse.


That was exactly my point. There are few cases like this one, when even opponents of university fees agree with them.

Godstud wrote:It's not as simple to change citizenship as you'd like to imply, and having debt doesn't guarantee anything.

I assume people are not trying to evade debt repayment. There will be only small percentage of those, as most people want to keep the option open to return back to home country at some point.

Students from rich countries are encouraged to stay in home country and repay the debt, as moving abroad - possibly into a poorer country would mean difficulties with repaying it. It simply won't disappear, only when repaid.

Poor countries face the opposite problem - fresh graduates flee them after receiving free education. This is a big problem particularly in the most eastern parts of EU. Governments will have to find a way to force them to stay or repay the education cost. It is very difficult to solve without either discrimination (illegal in EU) or university fees.

Godstud wrote:That's as simple as setting quotas on specific degrees or courses, and thereby guiding students towards careers that are needed, and more valuable.


That requires a central authority - state that can manage these quotas responsibly. But in reality they don't really care. Public servants don't get paid bonuses for setting the right quotas. It only becomes an issue in elections after many years of waste. University fees regulate it automatically.

I live in a country where university education is free. I prefer it to stay that way, but at the same time I can see some of advantages university fees offer.
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