Should healthcare and education be free? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Provision of the two UN HDI indicators other than GNP.
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#15057063
@ness31 So you're feeling a bit down.



Don't be a Negative Nancy. The world's a heck of a lot better than it was 100 years ago, despite what people think, sometimes.
#15057064
Agent Steel wrote:I don't know where to start. I feel like I've looked into many different points from both sides and I see good points on both sides.

I'm just looking for someone to help me understand which position I should take.


Sorry, I have never came across any good points for paying for health and education. Mainly because it increases costs due to them being essential services (supply and demand) and you know... profit. Please provide any and I will explain why they are wrong.

I think @SSDR has said it perfectly but ultimately in terms of state enhancement, and educated society is an improved society and pricing education limits this to class and hence limits this improvement. And health shouldn't be a lottery and those with the losing ticket will testify this to your face. If you happen to pick up a losing ticket and poor in America you'll soon see what side of this fence you should be sitting on.
#15057078
Pants-of-dog wrote:Cuba can do it on the budget of a developing country.


Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc.. Especially those doctors that are sent overseas. I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.

My point is, the truth is never clear cut. There are pros and cons to everything. Cuban isn't perfect, nor is Europe, nor is the US.

Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand.


If you like the status quo, you would actually support free education and free healthcare. Here's why:

Free education allows those in the lower classes to have a chance at getting out of their situation. Thus, they are less likely to cause unrest. Because, hey, they do have opportunities, so why fuck that up? Same goes with healthcare, if even the poorest are getting the healthcare they need, they will not want to fuck that up either. Effectively, free education and healthcare will pacify poor people. This prevents them from fucking it up for those that are in the higher socioeconomic classes.

My thesis is, that by offering free education and free healthcare, we can continue to maintain the current overall system. Hence, conservatives should really support this. The alternative is the path we are on now. Which leads to more inequality and more unhappiness among the lower classes, and eventually.... revolution.

Basically, the current mainstream conservative position will encourage the dramatic change they don't want, where as the current mainstream liberal position will actually maintain the status quo that they don't want. :lol: Both side have it EXACTLY backwards.

This is why I support free healthcare and education. I also argue that supporting these is actually more conservative than liberal (in the American sense of those words).

With respect to healthcare and education, I am a true conservative by supporting them. :lol:
#15057126
Rancid wrote:Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc.. Especially those doctors that are sent overseas. I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.

My point is, the truth is never clear cut. There are pros and cons to everything. Cuban isn't perfect, nor is Europe, nor is the US.



If you like the status quo, you would actually support free education and free healthcare. Here's why:

Free education allows those in the lower classes to have a chance at getting out of their situation. Thus, they are less likely to cause unrest. Because, hey, they do have opportunities, so why fuck that up? Same goes with healthcare, if even the poorest are getting the healthcare they need, they will not want to fuck that up either. Effectively, free education and healthcare will pacify poor people. This prevents them from fucking it up for those that are in the higher socioeconomic classes.

My thesis is, that by offering free education and free healthcare, we can continue to maintain the current overall system. Hence, conservatives should really support this. The alternative is the path we are on now. Which leads to more inequality and more unhappiness among the lower classes, and eventually.... revolution.

Basically, the current mainstream conservative position will encourage the dramatic change they don't want, where as the current mainstream liberal position will actually maintain the status quo that they don't want. :lol: Both side have it EXACTLY backwards.

This is why I support free healthcare and education. I also argue that supporting these is actually more conservative than liberal (in the American sense of those words).

With respect to healthcare and education, I am a true conservative by supporting them. :lol:


I am 100% in for free college for people that are academically gifted and poor. There is no point in offering free tuition to to people that are not college material. Give them free tuition for votech.

Medicare for all would work better than Medicare for the old and disabled. By definition everybody in the Medicare pool is sick and hence the system loses a lot of money. Private insurance makes money by insuring young healthy people. I say move those healthy people to the Medicare insurance pool and medicare could actually make money to pay for the old and disabled.

Or simply take health insurance (the middle man) out of the equation and do what Kaiser does. Have patients buy coverage directly from the providers and not the middle man (who provides zero care).
#15057142
Julian658 wrote:I am 100% in for free college for people that are academically gifted and poor. There is no point in offering free tuition to to people that are not college material. Give them free tuition for votech.


I agree, we should not lower the bar to get into college, that is for sure. EVeryone else can go to trade school.
#15057150
ness31 wrote:The reality is that we have an aging population that will bleed us dry.

But it’s okay. Karma will deal with them.



Sweetie, you sound as if you've got the blues. I hope it passes quickly.

Now, that aging population...they, and those no longer winning with us gave our society a treasure-trove of goods and knowledge and services. They've fought wars, financed education, medical care, the infrastructure for themselves and for those who follow. The roads, tunnels, ferries, even the sidewalks that children skateboard to their schools for their free education was paid for by those senior to them. They paid for hospitals, medical research which lead to new drugs, new methodology for procedures eg from x-rays to transplants, cat scans, pet scans etc. The list is long. I gather you too are on the over 27 list, off the freebies list, and on the chip-in-for-the-common-good list. So am i. So is mom. She pays more in taxes than most workers earn. (Edit: this sounds rather grand, but it's statistically true due to wage surpression)

Even when we lived in caves, it is within our nature to be caring, sharing hunters' goods, minding the children of others etc. And they cared for the disabled and elderly. Paying taxes is easier to swallow if you consider the good they do.

Chin up, lovie.
#15057151
Yes and yes. Why would things that benefit all not be good things?

Rancid wrote:Don't kid yourself that Cuba has the perfect medical system. I'm sure it's not bad, but don't get carried away.


Not sure how what POD said about Cuban healthcare = getting "carried away".

But since you mentioned that, in Cuba all Cubans have free healthcare and Cuba shares its medical resources around the world. In America tens of millions don't have healthcare because they're too poor, people are killed because of that, made bankrupt, commit suicide etc. and America's involvement in healthcare around the world seems to so far be limited to sometimes bombing hospitals and more recently, helping with the selling off of the NHS to U.S. healthcare companies.

They have been known to inflate their numbers on things like lives saved, cancers cured, etc..


Citation needed.

I recall reading about that stuff in this BBC article (I know it doesn't count to you because it's BBC) where they interview a former Cuban doctor and her experience as a doctor overseas. She was sexually harassed, and her managers didn't give a shit to boot. Sound horrible. Anyway, I'm sure you would just brush this off as lies or an outlier.


Your anecdote about Western propaganda on Cuba was amusing to read.
#15057393
Ter wrote:Health care and education (including university) are free or almost free in many European countries.
The people benefiting from this are paying through their income tax, which amounts to 50% and more depending on the level of income.
I used to pay 53% of my basic income as income tax when I used to work for my government.
There are rules and limits in free health care.
For instance, persons above the age of 64 are not entitled to kidney transplants (that is just one example I happen to know about because I overheard a conversation).
Thank you for reading and continue your deliberations.


How much money do you make?
#15057403
Let me start by dismissing out of hand Ness31's ideas about old people. His position is absurd. He would have me die rather than pay for my health care but I spent a goodly part of today providing health care for people much younger than I. I employ young people. Unless I miss my guess, probably pay more in taxes than he earns. Suffice it to say that one day he will be older and his perspective will change. Note for Ter. About a quarter of kidney transplants in the US are in people over 65. All other things being equal they actually do better than younger people in the area of rejection. Kidney transplants save money in the long haul..

Health care is too important to leave in the hands of free enterprise. They had their shot and they blew it. The question is far more complicated than trying to figure out who uses more services. Universal health care offers many advantages not usually considered by those taking a cursory look. There are economies of scale which is even more profound in rural settings. There are economies of scaling that eliminate redundancy in congested markets. There is the value of preventive care. There are mental health costs associated by long term concerns about medical care and the issue of paying for it. (Didn't think about that...most of you.) So universal health care serves us all. For the conservatives perhaps they can take comfort in the fact that the savings a single payer system will provide will be stimulative.

With regards to education I think we are forgetting that we have already decided this. We have had "free" public schools forever. When we hear this question most of us here assume we are speaking of university educations. What is the difference between 12th grade and 13th grade? One is free the other bloody expensive. And if college is not a foregone conclusion it will change the focus of High School....or ought to.

Education in the US is simply far too expensive and ought to be taxpayer funded. Students should get two shots at succeeding in college. One at the taxpayer's expense and succeeding tries at their own expense.
#15057404
@Drlee

I know when I become a senior citizen and I am old, I hope people treat me well and don't just let me die un-necessarily. I honestly and genuinely think it's very important to take care of our elderly and be sure they have decent healthcare so that they can live long, happy lives. Our elderly deserve to be happy and healthy. None of us of course are going to live forever. But still, our society owes it to our elderly to be sure they get the best healthcare available so they can live long happy lives. I don't mind paying taxes to ensure that. When I ran my own business for 7 years, I actually went out of my way to pay taxes as I wanted to contribute. I didn't try to find fancy ways to dodge taxes or any sort of thing like that, like some business folks do. I felt much better as a business man contributing towards social security, medicare and paying federal income taxes on my share of the business profits. Plus my company paid a ton of money in taxes to various different states as well as licensing fees.
#15057741
Agent Steel wrote:I'm really torn on this topic and I can't make up my mind where I stand. I need help. Can someone please help me figure out the answer to this question?


I think both should be completely free, but free education is going to need some sort of contract between the payer/payee, the keep the price down.
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