China's Wuhan shuts down transport as global alarm mounts over virus spread - Page 24 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15067378
What is the sudden death symptom about?


IT appears this rumor comes from a youtube video by a conspiracy theorist and has been flagged by Facebook. I know of no evidence that supports the claim of sudden death as a symptom of this disease.



A couple of doctors in China are reporting that people who appear to have recovered are reinfected and die. This would not be unusual in some rare cases with other viruses. Flu for example. We have four other noteworthy corona viruses in circulation and eventually immunity fades. With them it certainly is not fading in a matter of days or weeks. It is far to early to really know much about that anyway. We can guess that if it was the case that significant numbers of people were reacquiring the disease, the death toll would be far higher than it is.

I have no particular knowledge of this stuff but the published information speaks against either scenario happening in any significant number of cases.
#15067428
Drlee wrote:IT appears this rumor comes from a youtube video by a conspiracy theorist and has been flagged by Facebook. I know of no evidence that supports the claim of sudden death as a symptom of this disease.


We don't know that they were dead. They may just have suddenly fainted, which is after all strange in a viral infection where symptoms increase gradually. The only thing I can imagine is that people for some reasons kept on going despite feeling ill or because they couldn't find any place to treat them and then suddenly collapsed in the street or in some public place.

There are too many of these videos to discard it as rumor. That did happen and it did happen in Wuhan during the viral outbreak.

One idea is that hypoxia may have caused organ failure. Apparently, the viral infection can lead to kidney or heart damage. Hypoxia is caused due to a lack of oxygen, when the lungs don't take in enough oxygen or when the blood pressure is too low to transport it to the organs.

@Rancid, I used Greece as an example. I didn't say the US is in the same situation. Nevertheless, the increase in debt and the deficit is concerning - both are obviously related. It is interesting that Yankee imperialists assume that the US can do whatever it wants and that the rest of the world will somehow have to bail them out, or if nothing else works, they'll just start another war. That just goes to show that the US is the greatest danger to the world.

On the political front in China, the spike in infections reported for Hubei coincides with a change of the political leadership. The Hubei party chief and a couple of other leaders have been sacked to be replaced by close allies of Xi Jinping. This also shows that Xi is tightening the reins and can even use the crises to strengthen his hold on power. They decided to change the method of reporting confirmed infections and deaths to unload the backlog of unreported cases before the new leaders took office. That will put the blame on the old leadership and give the new leaders the opportunity to shine when reported cases drop in the coming days or weeks.
#15067437
Atlantis wrote:@Rancid, I used Greece as an example. I didn't say the US is in the same situation. Nevertheless, the increase in debt and the deficit is concerning - both are obviously related. It is interesting that Yankee imperialists assume that the US can do whatever it wants and that the rest of the world will somehow have to bail them out, or if nothing else works, they'll just start another war. That just goes to show that the US is the greatest danger to the world.


I think you are still misunderstanding.

First, I'm not a yankee imperialist just because I'm pointing how things work in the current global financial capitalist system.
Second, you seem to be conflating two separate points/issues. You are making a broad point as an argument against my very specific point. I don't think it's right to do that. My point is with respect to this virus and its affect on the global economy. Further, I just explained to Dr. Lee why hypothetically, if China sold off bonds to raise capital so they could fund/compensate for the economic loss this virus is bringing to them; does not automatically mean this would not be a bad thing for the US (or anyone else for that matter).

You are making a broader point about US debt and the deficit, which is fine. However, that is not what I'm talking about, and it is not a counter point to my points about this virus and its effect on the global economy. If that's what you want to talk about, we can do that in another thread.

Further, I never suggested, said, or supported the idea that "the US is expecting the world to bail them out." Further, that, in itself is an over simplification of how things would work in a hypothetical global financial crisis triggered by US fiscal irresponsibility (the US doesn't have that much economic power anyway). That's for another thread though.

Not sure why you are throwing around accusations that I'm some sort of US imperialist. :?:
Last edited by Rancid on 15 Feb 2020 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
#15067451
@Drlee I agree with @Atlantis.

There are too many videos from other sources that show the same sudden collapse and then convulsions. Also, the Chinese authorities seem to have only been counting cardiac arrest from Corona virus and ignoring pneumonia related deaths until recently. So there seems to be something to it. But Western sources seem to not know much about it. Possibly because there has only been one case outside China, in HK. The death in the Philippines looked like secondary infect (golden staph might have got him). I haven’t looked at the SG case yet.

In the videos it looks like cardiac arrest. My first theory was that these people had been taking something dangerous as medication that caused cardiac arrest. But the following video covers research about smoking, the ACE2 receptor site, and it’s implications for explaining observed symptoms. Also touches on the reinfection issue. No good news for people who get the virus if this research proves correct, I’m afraid.

Starts from 12:30 and takes most of the rest of the video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MwJ5thwr4C8

Regarding reinfection, this shouldn’t be happening. But we have an example or two of 24 day incubation. This is likely back to back infections, rather than one big one. Also the German cases had high viral loads even after symptoms subsided. The immune system should have cut down numbers of virus by that stage, hence end of symptoms. Was that too a new infection being detected there?

Admittedly, I am no expert. But I would say there are at least two versions to get that observed behaviour. But who knows what the real explanation is. Maybe the virus can change its spots that quickly. Or maybe there is something else going on.

We won’t know until these things happen in the West where they can be studied and even then, it could take years for the final analysis to come out.

Just to end on a happy note, the Spanish flu of 1918 started out about as a ‘not too bad’ virus, similar in lethality to this new virus. As it spread around the world it mutated into nastier forms with all sorts of horrible symptoms.


@Rancid , do you think those guys in the hazmat suits with the guns in @Zionist Nationalist ‘s video were actually shooting the undead that had been getting back up again?

Just kidding!
#15068470
JohnRawls wrote:Its not exactly evidence but an example:


No John, that's no evidence. For example, there is still debate about the origin of the Spanish flu. It's not possible to say with certainty that it originated in China. I expect many of the others are of the same order.

Back to Covid-19, the latest news is that there are two deaths due to the virus in the city of Quom in Iran. Iran hadn't even announced any infections, and now suddenly there are two deaths. With a death rate of 2%, that could suggest there are a hundred cases. Aside from the Diamond Princess, that would be the biggest cluster of infections outside of China. Boom, from zero to top position. We really don't know how big the iceberg of unaccounted infections really is. Some countries can't even test for the virus.
#15068474
Very true @Atlantis

We really don't know. China is leaning toward saying that it is slowing down but given the gargantuan efforts they have made for a slight down tick, this but is a real bad one.

I am extremely surprised that the US has not discovered more. It will be an interesting spring.

Buy masks. Lay in a supply of long-lived foods. Get exam or food service gloves.

Wash your hands obsessively.

Stay away from Maltese Hookers.
#15068482
Apparently, the two Iranians from Qom (not Quom) were local residents of the city without any travel history. So, there must be H2H transmission in Iran. Qom is a holy city where Shia Muslims from distant places come to visit, which could spread the virus.

Qom is a center for Islamic studies attracting scholars from Iran and beyond.

However, the head of the health ministry's contagious diseases unit said the pair who died were Qom residents who were not known to have left Iran.

"These two were from Qom and visited (us) two days ago after falling ill...they didn't even have a history of going abroad," IRNA quoted Mohammad Mehdi Gouya as saying.

Another official in Qom said people suspected of being infected with the coronavirus would be put into quarantine in two hospitals.

Mohammadreza Ghadir, head of the city's medical sciences unit, told IRNA that "the spread of coronavirus in Qom has been controlled and we want the people not to worry about it."


So the infection is "under control" but they have no idea how the two residents who never traveled were infected. :?:

If officials were to spend more energy on containing the virus than on containing information, I would feel more comfortable.
#15068542
Drlee wrote:We really don't know. China is leaning toward saying that it is slowing down but given the gargantuan efforts they have made for a slight down tick, this but is a real bad one.

I am extremely surprised that the US has not discovered more. It will be an interesting spring.

Buy masks. Lay in a supply of long-lived foods. Get exam or food service gloves.

Wash your hands obsessively.

Stay away from Maltese Hookers.


All very good advise, especially about the Maltese Hookers.

We really don't know if this is going to be a pandemic, but there is a real chance that it will. Therefore, it's foolish not to prepare. There is no harm in preparing now. The supply chains are still working and shops can order more if people lay in stocks. It'll boost the economy and it'll alleviate the run on the shops if the epidemic does come near you.

I could self-isolate for months or even years since we grow most of our own food and live in a very remote rural area with no neighbor in sight. On the downside, the health system is inadequate in the best of times. If the epidemic does strike here, I wouldn't be able to get treatment. So my best chance is by avoiding infection.

According to a Chinese case analysis of the recorded infections, the death rate varies between 0.2% for young healthy people and 8% to 15% for old people. The overall death rate for men and women is 2.6% and 1.7%, respectively. People with chronic conditions such as diabetes, high blood pressure, asthma, etc., have a higher death rate. In the case of a full-blown epidemic, many people will die because they can't get treatment. About 18% get severely ill and need hospitalization, of which 5% need intensive care. Experts estimate that if the outbreak isn't controlled 60% of the total population could be infected. That would result in millions of severe cases. There is no health system in the world that can cope with that.

The Epidemiological Characteristics of an Outbreak of 2019 Novel Coronavirus Diseases (COVID-19) — China, 2020

Iran has reported 3 more cases, bringing the total to 5. They are also quarantining people and have closed the schools in Qom. There are unconfirmed reports from Kamkar hospital in Qom that 20 have died of the virus.

I'm utterly disgusted by how badly Japan has handled the situation on the Diamond Princess and in the country. This really shows that the reflex to cover up is universal and not limited to China, where it is institutionalized. In Japan, critical opinions are suppressed to the point of censorship. Kentaro Iwata, an infectious disease specialist who had criticized the condition on-board the ship, was forced to recant and delete his video from the Internet.

The Koreans seem to take the virus outbreak a bit more seriously but they just passed the 100 infections mark, probably due to close relations with China and an outbreak at a Church. The mayor of Daegu has asked people to stay at home.

In China, the reported new infections are down, but the deaths are up. We don't know if infections are down due to the containment measures or if the figures are massaged to show that the new leaders in Hubei are succeeding in their task.

India is starting to curb exports of medical equipment including masks and drugs that could be needed in a epidemic. So, it's every country to itself and god against all. A perfect recipe for disaster.
#15068544
Atlantis wrote:India is starting to curb exports of medical equipment including masks and drugs that could be needed in a epidemic. So, it's every country to itself and god against all. A perfect recipe for disaster.

I met with two expatriates who are bosses in the garments sector here in Bangladesh.
Both refuse to travel even for work.
One sent 30,000 masks to his China office.
The other one send a package of masks to his girl friend in Thailand but the package was seized by the Thai Authorities. They said it is a strategic item and they have the right to seize it.
Some orders for garments to Europe are already indefinitely delayed, more cancellations are inevitable if China does not open its factories immediately to supply raw materials.
#15068556
Ter wrote:I met with two expatriates who are bosses in the garments sector here in Bangladesh.
Both refuse to travel even for work.
One sent 30,000 masks to his China office.
The other one send a package of masks to his girl friend in Thailand but the package was seized by the Thai Authorities. They said it is a strategic item and they have the right to seize it.
Some orders for garments to Europe are already indefinitely delayed, more cancellations are inevitable if China does not open its factories immediately to supply raw materials.


This is going to have huge implications in the case of a pandemic. The US depends on China for its medical supplies. If supplies are disrupted during an epidemics, there could be shortages in basic medical supplies.

Now it seems clear why the number of infections in China is down. They again changed their accounting methods, shaving 80% off the record. Looks like the virus is winning the propaganda war. :knife:

"Confirmed case" definition changes: All official coronavirus cases from today must now be formally diagnosed before they are added to the totals.

The National Health Commission earlier explained that confirmed cases in Hubei province would now only include people who had positive lab test results from patient samples that match in nucleic acid and genetic sequencing for the virus.
#15068558
Atlantis wrote:
This is going to have huge implications in the case of a pandemic. The US depends on China for its medical supplies. If supplies are disrupted during an epidemics, there could be shortages in basic medical supplies.

Now it seems clear why the number of infections in China is down. They again changed their accounting methods, shaving 80% off the record. Looks like the virus is winning the propaganda war. :knife:

Which means China is lying over and over again. The World must stop them.
#15068583
I'm utterly disgusted by how badly Japan has handled the situation on the Diamond Princess and in the country. This really shows that the reflex to cover up is universal and not limited to China, where it is institutionalized. In Japan, critical opinions are suppressed to the point of censorship. Kentaro Iwata, an infectious disease specialist who had criticized the condition on-board the ship, was forced to recant and delete his video from the Internet.


Terrible.

This is getting out of control. There is still some question as to whether Chinese goods being transported to the US when the factories open can carry the virus. If this is the case we are in seriously deep shit. The US is doing nothing that I can see to prepare. We are literally ignoring this other than for a few folks whose job it is and some of we boomers who remember measles outbreaks.

I see no problem with frightening a few if not all people. Sure will will see the usual 'worried well' coming in to be reassured but that is a small price to pay for vigilance. There is no excuse ever, and particularly now, for any clinic that does not mask every patient who presents with URI symptoms. Every practitioner should be the hand wash police in the clinics.

I am going to the clinic this AM and we will see perhaps 20-30 homeless people. Some will present with URI/influenza symptoms. I will put every one of them in a mask as have them use hand sanitizer. What could possibly be wrong with that corona virus or not?

Y'all do what you want but I have laid in a supply of stuff. If there is a pandemic before a vaccine I am probably screwed anyway. I am an old man. I think that many Americans believe that our medical system is superior to China's with regard to dealing with a Pandemic. I disagree with this assessment. In many ways we are far worse.
#15068585
Drlee wrote:Terrible.

This is getting out of control. There is still some question as to whether Chinese goods being transported to the US when the factories open can carry the virus. If this is the case we are in seriously deep shit. The US is doing nothing that I can see to prepare. We are literally ignoring this other than for a few folks whose job it is and some of we boomers who remember measles outbreaks.

I see no problem with frightening a few if not all people. Sure will will see the usual 'worried well' coming in to be reassured but that is a small price to pay for vigilance. There is no excuse ever, and particularly now, for any clinic that does not mask every patient who presents with URI symptoms. Every practitioner should be the hand wash police in the clinics.

I am going to the clinic this AM and we will see perhaps 20-30 homeless people. Some will present with URI/influenza symptoms. I will put every one of them in a mask as have them use hand sanitizer. What could possibly be wrong with that corona virus or not?

Y'all do what you want but I have laid in a supply of stuff. If there is a pandemic before a vaccine I am probably screwed anyway. I am an old man. I think that many Americans believe that our medical system is superior to China's with regard to dealing with a Pandemic. I disagree with this assessment. In many ways we are far worse.


Drlee I thought Mexico would be in serious trouble with this Coronavirus. Especially here in the Yucatan. We got so many viruses, bacterial infections, etc. The heat and the humidity encourages illness here. Yet here the native Yucatecans are super clean and conscientious people. They wash their hands and their toilet facilities in public areas are usually spotlessly clean and well kept. I see those face masks and hand sanitizers everywhere here.

I hope that Mexico doesn't get it in a mass wave. But it might. I am very easy to pick up illness due to my chronic condition.

Stay safe Drlee. I have grown to care about you a lot over the years. Don't let some opportunistic virus take you from us early. If you have to? Go and rest and forget about being the hero for a while. I would rather you were here for us for as long as you could be.

Cuidate Drlee y que vayas con Dios...siempre.
#15068588
Tainari88 wrote:
I hope that Mexico doesn't get it in a mass wave. But it might. I am very easy to pick up illness due to my chronic condition.

Stay safe Drlee. I have grown to care about you a lot over the years. Don't let some opportunistic virus take you from us early. If you have to? Go and rest and forget about being the hero for a while. I would rather you were here for us for as long as you could be.



Typically, more fresh air means less transmission of disease. Flu rampages in the winter, nearly vanishes in the summer.

So your warm climate should help limiting the spread of the disease.

Maybe.
#15068592
late wrote:Typically, more fresh air means less transmission of disease. Flu rampages in the winter, nearly vanishes in the summer.

So your warm climate should help limiting the spread of the disease.

Maybe.


I don't know late. Pandemics or epidemics have wiped out many a civilization. Look at the Spaniards bringing smallpox to the New World? It wiped out from 80-92% of all the native pre-Hispanic peoples.

We fly around now. That air cabin air is recirculated air and many ways for a stubborn virus to get air borne and ready to rumble.

Anything can happen. I just hope nothing happens to Drlee.

At his core he is a true doctor. I can't say the same about many others nowadays who enter the profession strictly to get rich.
#15068599
Drlee wrote:There is still some question as to whether Chinese goods being transported to the US when the factories open can carry the virus.


Apparently, the virus is an enveloped virus and can survive outside the body on a smooth surface at low temperature for days, perhaps 2 to 9 days. So it's probably just a matter of waiting long enough or keeping the goods at higher temperatures to avoid the risk of infection.

I see no problem with frightening a few if not all people.


I agree, there will always be people eager for conspiracies and doomsday stories, but complacency and downplaying the risk is more dangerous, because it instills a false sense of security and if the virus does spread, there will be widespread panic because people lose trust in the authorities to do the right thing.

We can only do so much for our own security. Imposing a travel ban is beyond our individual control. When people experience a loss of control and realize that the government has no control either, there will be panic.

I am going to the clinic this AM and we will see perhaps 20-30 homeless people. Some will present with URI/influenza symptoms. I will put every one of them in a mask as have them use hand sanitizer. What could possibly be wrong with that corona virus or not?


It's great that you can use your skills to help people. Most of all, don't forget your own safety. You can't help others if you get sick too and medical people are at great risk of infection. More than 1,700 have been infected in China and some have died. I hope that, in the event of an epidemic, authorities (federal, state, or community) will provide for all those who don't have health insurance in the US.
#15068704
A Canadian woman allegedly caught the virus on a trip to Iran. If that's true, it must be very widespread in Iran already. There have been unconfirmed reports about a number of deaths in addition to the 2 deaths in Qom admitted by the Iranian news agency, but it's hard to know if it's true. There are anti-regime news sources that'll say anything to spread panic. Luckily, Iran isn't very integrated in the global economy and can more easily be isolated. Iraq has already closed its border with Iran.



Korea is going through the roof too with 156 confirmed cases. It's worse than Beijing at this point.

I'm starting to lose hope that this can be contained.
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