[blackjack21]

Never mind the old a lot of these people would sacrifice their first born son if would get rid of Trump.

What would you expect from people who have abortions, because they think pregnancy is a career impediment? Death isn't nearly the problem for these people in the way they would have you believe.

Everyone of the potential victims of this lock down is not a tragedy for them, its a potential voter for Biden in November.

I don't think that's going to work out for them. Biden is out to lunch, and everyone knows it.

[Atlantis]

@Sivad, how many corpses do you need? Is 200,000 enough? Or do you want 2.2 millions? How many of our friends and relatives have to die? I reckon that 8 out of 16 of our close friends over 70 with one or more health issues could be dead in a couple of months if they catch it. How many tens of millions you want to die in poor countries?

As to the death rate, I have explained all there is to it a couple of months ago.

And don't think you are immune. This virus doesn't tolerate BS.

[Patrickov]

Yes. That article is directly from a Falun Gong news outlet. However, I'm seeing plausible numbers like this:

Delivery of 5,000 URNS to funeral home in coronavirus epicentre Wuhan raises fears China is underplaying nation's official 3,300 death toll
It would not surprise me if China is simply outright lying about cases right now.

I will say the death toll in China being in the order of 100,000 is more plausible. Many tend to forget that there are freaking 1.4 billion people in China. A death toll of 140,000 would mean a 1 in 10,000 death rate, not particularly terrifying, but much more reasonable given the initial spread rate.

[Rancid]

I think it's fair to assume China is lying through their teeth. There's a guy on our team that grew up in Wuhan. He doesn't even believe the wet market story. According to him, Wuhan/central China doesn't have a wild animal eating culture. He claims, that's just not a thing there. That's something you see in the south which has traditionally been more impoverished. For example, the first SARS outbreak came from the south (Guangdong). I think it probably is a China's lack of investment in public health in Wuhan (I've posted the data before), and I'm sure they are lying about over all deaths. Lots of countries are going to lie about their numbers, that's for sure.

China needs something they can use as a source of national pride and propaganda. To claim they have fewer deaths than the west fits that bill perfectly. You know... for a problem they started....

Even on LinkedIn I see propaganda floating around about how China is saving the world or whatever...

[blackjack21]

I will say the death toll in China being in the order of 100,000 is more plausible. Many tend to forget that there are freaking 1.4 billion people in China. A death toll of 140,000 would mean a 1 in 10,000 death rate, not particularly terrifying, but much more reasonable given the initial spread rate.

Given that the flu kills so many, it would seem that the panic over the numbers is a bit misplaced until they exceed that of the standard flu.

[Atlantis]

@Rancid, don't believe what Chinese people tell you. At this point people are totally biased one way or another. Reason has gone out of the window. Wuhan is a prosperous hub where the nouveaux riches are in constant search for new exotic culinary delights. From bat soup to live mice, anything goes.

Most countries are under reporting cases, none more so than the US. There is no reason for the Chinese to risk Wuhan 2.0 by letting the virus spread undetected once again. It's simple logic.

[Rancid]

don't believe what Chinese people tell you.

In my post, I implied that I do not believe him. I don't believe him.

There is no reason for the Chinese to risk Wuhan 2.0 by letting the virus spread undetected once again. It's simple logic.

I agree, but that is separate from lying about their numbers. That is ,they can still take measures to prevent a second wave, and still lie about it.

[QatzelOk]

...don't believe what Chinese people tell you....

...I think it's fair to assume China is lying through their teeth. ...

I will say the death toll in China being in the order of 100,000 is more plausible.

the WHO they are absolutely in the pocket of the CPC.

The Chinese Communist party, the WHO and their vast army of Cultural Marxist allies who have infested every institution in the West

This line of thought - that evil for'ners are behind all of your problems - is how the First Nations were killed, "witches" were burned, and it's why the USA and its allies have been in permanent kill-mode for centuries.

Rather than offering empathy and help, you guys are only able to spit out the same poisons you were spitting out before "everything changed," only now, your poison is much more visible to the naked eye.

https://caitlinjohnstone.com/2020/03/27 ... his-virus/

[Atlantis]

they can still take measures to prevent a second wave, and still lie about it.

No, that is the most important lesson people have to learn from Wuhan 1.0 (as well as from Iran, Italy and the US). Wherever the virus spreads undetected for a month or more, it'll run out of control. Even after more than 2 months of draconian lockdown, there are still people dying in Wuhan. To contain the virus once it's gone out of control requires a huge public effort that can't be hidden.

[Rancid]

No

What exactly precludes them about lying about deaths & cases?

They have a long history of lying about all sorts of numbers that they release. Why is this one different/special? They can most certaily stop the spread and still lie about the degree of success they've had by fudging the numbers. That is entirely possible (and likely in my opinion). There's nothing fundamental that is preventing them from both being successful at preventing spread, and then also lying about the numbers. Those two things are not completely at odds so long as the lying doesn't get to ridiculous levels (which it won't because they are smart, they do this with their economic data as well.

They are good at lying just enough to make themselves look good, but not so much that it becomes easy to challenge and dispute.

[Atlantis]

@Rancid, you can't lockdown a city without people noticing, you can't hide highly contagious corpses without relatives and funeral parlor staff noticing - not in a culture where ancestor worship is the most defining factor.

You have to see it from the perspective of Western leaders lying through the teeth and getting away with it.

[Rancid]

@Rancid, you can't lockdown a city without people noticing, you can't hide highly contagious corpses without relatives and funeral parlor staff noticing - not in a culture where ancestor worship is the most defining factor.

You have to see it from the perspective of Western leaders lying through the teeth and getting away with it.

It's odd that you think China wouldn't lie, and everyone else would. When the reality is, everyone will fucking lie. It's really more about degrees of lying here.

Not when you have a social credit system with prying eyes everywhere, mass media control, and a super centralized authoritarian government. It becomes much easier to tell lies and control/fudge data.

BTW, I also believe western governments too are lying. Though at least in the US, it can be a bit harder to lie, since the US system of governments are less centralized than say China. State/local authorities have a lot more power here and can give the federal government the middle finger (hell, local governments sue/challenge the federal government constantly). They all publish their own statistics which can be more easily cross checked for consistency/inconsistency example. Plus, there's a stronger culture and protection for wistleblowers in the west.

Decentralization, basically makes it harder to fudge/lie. This is besides the point.

[Rich]

This line of thought - that evil for'ners are behind all of your problems - is how the First Nations were killed, "witches" were burned, and it's why the USA and its allies have been in permanent kill-mode for centuries.

Rather than offering empathy and help, you guys are only able to spit out the same poisons you were spitting out before "everything changed," only now, your poison is much more visible to the naked eye.

Far from being against all things Chinese, let alone all things foreign, I am very appreciative of Chan (Zen) Buddhism, Taoist thought and practices and Wing Chung. However it must be noted that all three arose or survived in opposition to the dominant oppressive Han Confucian culture. We certainly should have the courage to condemn Roosevelt and Truman for losing China.

[Donna]

I think it's fair to assume China is lying through their teeth. There's a guy on our team that grew up in Wuhan. He doesn't even believe the wet market story. According to him, Wuhan/central China doesn't have a wild animal eating culture. He claims, that's just not a thing there. That's something you see in the south which has traditionally been more impoverished. For example, the first SARS outbreak came from the south (Guangdong). I think it probably is a China's lack of investment in public health in Wuhan (I've posted the data before), and I'm sure they are lying about over all deaths. Lots of countries are going to lie about their numbers, that's for sure.

China needs something they can use as a source of national pride and propaganda. To claim they have fewer deaths than the west fits that bill perfectly. You know... for a problem they started....

Even on LinkedIn I see propaganda floating around about how China is saving the world or whatever...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Se ... ale_Market

[Rancid]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huanan_Se ... ale_Market

i've already stated, I do not believe the guy at work....

[Donna]

i've already stated, I do not believe the guy at work....

Ah..It sounds like he likes to spin tall yarns to get folks going.

[Rancid]

Ah..It sounds like he likes to spin tall yarns to get folks going.

Maybe, I don't talk to him much. He did mention that they are lifting restrictions, and his family is allowed to do things like go to the grocery store.

[Atlantis]

@Rancid, where did i say that china could never lie?

china like every other nation lies to push it's national narrative

what needs to concern us here is that the western narrative has led to a worse situation than the chinese narrative

just look at the death figures

the first victim of every propaganda war is the truth

do you think the west can win by making decisions based on false premises?

after having failed to act in time, western leaders (especially trump and johnson) are desperate for more dead chinese to cover their own failure

the people are ready to serve as canon fodder, as always

[BeesKnee5]

Published today
https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lani ... 73-3099(20)30243-7/fulltext

'Our estimated overall infection fatality ratio for China was 0·66% (0·39–1·33)'

So for every death there are 150 infected, or in other words its 7 times more deadly than seasonal flu.

[Pants-of-dog]

If we all overreact now, slow the infection rate down a lot, we can keep the number of people going to the hospital to a minimum. This way, we have time to stretch our medical resources out until the moment we have a vaccine.

If we do this right, it does not have to be deadly at all.