[Drlee]

@Doug64 wrote:

@Pants-of-dog, personally, I don't think scientific organizations should be offering recommendations at all,....

Stopped reading there.

You got your wish with Trump. He ignored the experts which is pretty much the same thing.

You need to get a grip sun. That quote is perhaps the "stupid statement of the month" winner by a long shot.

[Pants-of-dog]

@Pants-of-dog, personally, I don't think scientific organizations should be offering recommendations at all, they should limit themselves to providing data along with an assessment of the data's reliability and leave the decisions to the politicians that are actually elected. But if they are going to be making recommendations to those making the actual decisions, those recommendations need to be based on the science and nothing else. It is their status as scientists--and therefore the science--that gives those recommendations weight.

This seems like a summary of what you would like to see happen. But as you already know, the world does not work that way.

Having said that, it is entirely possible for the CDC to make a recommendation about air travel without having any data specific to Covid 19 and air travel by vaccinated people, and to do based on the science and nothing else. They simply do this by making logical deductions based on similar scenarios and existing knowledge.

[Doug64]

You got your wish with Trump. He ignored the experts which is pretty much the same thing.

When did the Trump administration not follow the recommendations of the government's experts?

Having said that, it is entirely possible for the CDC to make a recommendation about air travel without having any data specific to Covid 19 and air travel by vaccinated people, and to do based on the science and nothing else. They simply do this by making logical deductions based on similar scenarios and existing knowledge.

So when he was asked for the science backing up his statements about the vaccinated not traveling why didn't Fauci point to the "similar scenarios and existing knowledge," rather than saying that "when you don’t have the data and you don’t have the actual evidence, then you’ve got to make a judgment call"?

[Drlee]

@Doug64 When did the Trump administration not follow the recommendations of the government's experts?

[Pants-of-dog]

...
So when he was asked for the science backing up his statements about the vaccinated not traveling why didn't Fauci point to the "similar scenarios and existing knowledge," rather than saying that "when you don’t have the data and you don’t have the actual evidence, then you’ve got to make a judgment call"?

It seems like your criticism is with Dr. Fauci’s wording rather than his point. I assume that Dr. Fauci and the members of the press who are interviewing him do not have time to have a dialogue about methodological limitations and how these affect practical decisions about complex behaviours in real time.

[Godstud]

"similar scenarios and existing knowledge,"

= Medical Doctor making a Judgement Call.


Get a clue, @Doug64. All you have is politics with which to battle science and reason.

[Drlee]

Next time Doug is ill, I suggest he get a medical opinion and then run it by his Mayor or Bishop. That way he can be sure the doctor's opinion and method of treatment is valid.

[QatzelOk]

He ignored the experts...

The Experts

In the late 1700s, the crown of England often made us of "experts" to determine how to handle "the Indian problem."

In the early years of the USA as an independent-of-England entity, George Washington often made use of "experts" to see how to manage the new state and its various inhabitants.

Why do people blindly assume that The Powers the Be have changed since this time? What gives our current commercial "experts" any more credibility than Jeffrey Amherst? (who lived to the age of 80 in wealth)

[Doug64]

It seems like your criticism is with Dr. Fauci’s wording rather than his point. I assume that Dr. Fauci and the members of the press who are interviewing him do not have time to have a dialogue about methodological limitations and how these affect practical decisions about complex behaviours in real time.

No, my problem is scientists like Dr. Fauci making recommendations based on judgment calls in the absence of actual evidence, which is what Fauci admitted they'd done.

And more blows keep coming for the teachers' unions trying to through the students under the bus, and the politicians that support them. I do have a problem with the first word of the article, though, instead of "new" it should be "additional." The new study just reinforces previous ones.

Schools weigh whether to seat students closer together

New evidence that it may be safe for schools to seat students 3 feet apart - half of the previous recommended distance - could offer a way to return more of the nation’s children to classrooms with limited space.

Even as more teachers receive vaccinations against COVID-19, social distancing guidelines have remained a major hurdle for districts across the U.S. Debate around the issue flared last week when a study suggested that masked students can be seated as close as 3 feet apart with no increased risk to them or teachers.

Published in the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases, the research looked at schools in Massachusetts, which has backed the 3-foot guideline for months. Illinois and Indiana are also allowing 3 feet of distance, and other states such as Oregon are considering doing the same.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention is now exploring the idea too. The agency’s director, Dr. Rochelle Walensky, said the 6-foot guideline is “among the biggest challenges” schools have faced in reopening.

The CDC included the larger spacing in its latest school guidelines, which were issued in February and concluded that schools can safely operate during the pandemic with masks, distancing and other precautions. It suggested 6 feet and said physical distancing “should be maximized to the greatest extent possible.”

Other organizations have issued more relaxed guidelines, including the World Health Organization, which urges 1 meter in schools. The American Academy of Pediatrics says to space desks “3 feet apart and ideally 6 feet apart.”

Dan Domenech, executive director of AASA, a national superintendents group, said he expects more states and schools to move to the 3-foot rule in coming weeks. With the larger guideline, he said, most schools only have space to bring back half of their students at a time. Moving to 3 feet could allow about 75% at a time, he said.

“There are districts that have been doing 3 feet for quite some time without experiencing any greater amount of infection,” he said.

In Illinois, health officials said last week that students can be seated 3 feet apart as long as their teachers are vaccinated. Before, state officials required 6 feet.

With the state’s blessing, the Barrington district near Chicago reopened middle schools Tuesday using the smaller spacing rule. Any student will be allowed to attend in-person classes, although the district expects roughly 30% to continue with remote learning.

Questions around spacing have led to a battle in Massachusetts, where teachers and some schools oppose a state plan to bring younger students back five days a week starting next month. The plan calls on schools to seat students 3 feet apart, although many have been using 6 feet as a standard. Districts that fail to meet the reopening deadline would risk losing state funding.

The Massachusetts Teachers Association, a statewide union, argues that seating students closer will increase the risk for everyone in the classroom. It also poses a problem for districts that have agreed to contracts with teachers adopting the 6-foot rule as a requirement.

“They can’t just throw 6 feet out the window. They can’t throw away what has been agreed upon,” said Merrie Najimy, president of the union. “If they can’t make it work, then they’re going to have to come to a new agreement.”

Public schools in Worcester are among those pushing back against the closer spacing. Tracy O’Connell Novick, a member of the district school committee, said switching to the 3-feet standard would be “betting the health” of thousands of students and staff.

In Boston’s public schools, desks will be spaced at least 3 feet apart, but teachers and staff will be asked to keep 6 feet from students and other staff when feasible, district spokesperson Xavier Andrews said. Schools will also use larger rooms and outdoor spaces to keep students at a safe distance, he said.

In some states that already allow 3-feet spacing, schools say they have seen no evidence of increased risk. School officials in Danville, Indiana, which moved to 3 feet in October, said students have been in the classroom all year with no uptick in virus transmission.

“It’s gone very well for us. I won’t say there has been no transmission, but it’s been staggeringly low - like one time or something like that,” said Tim McRoberts, vice president of the school board. “We’ve kept our doors open. We’ve had no temporary shutdowns.”

In Ohio, Cincinnati’s school board got an earful from parents and others last month when it proposed resuming in-person learning at the crowded Walnut Hills High School under a model that called for distancing of only 3 feet there while its other schools would use 6 feet.

The critics included Walnut Hills teacher Brandon Keller, who said the plan was dangerous. He warned the board that their decision “will have a body count.”

Board members backed off on reopening that school, then weeks later narrowly voted for a plan that included a phased reopening, but they also warned that the physical distancing might be less than 6 feet. Students also have options to continue learning virtually.

Seven superintendents in central Oregon sent a letter to Gov. Kate Brown last week asking the state to relax some of its social distancing rules - including the 6-foot barrier - so that more students can return to class full time.

Oregon’s Crook County School District, which has had students in classrooms most of the school year, has found that masks, contact tracing and sending students home when they show symptoms are the most effective means of combating the virus.

“The 6-feet rule doesn’t make as much sense as the other safety measures,” district spokesperson Jason Carr said. “What may have made sense two months ago or at the beginning of the year might not now.”

[Pants-of-dog]

No, my problem is scientists like Dr. Fauci making recommendations based on judgment calls in the absence of actual evidence, which is what Fauci admitted they'd done.

No, I do not agree with that interpretation.

Dr, Fauci was vague. To assume that he meant that he was not looking at evidence at all is to assume a specific interpretation that is not necessarily true.

[Politics_Observer]

@Doug64

In light of the hate crimes that have just taken place in Atlanta, is this a good idea to be calling this the "Wuhan virus?" Couldn't the name "Wuhan" be considered an ethic identifier and thus racist against Asian Americans the way it used in this context?

[Drlee]

Doug calls this the Wuhan virus because he is making what he believes to be a political statement. The fact that the rest of the world is more mature than this should come as no surprise to you.

Now Doug64 has castigated Fauci for offering an opinion without solid research BUT. When he is looking to feed his political bias he will grab any article or piece of opinion that suits he world view. In other words he does what he (in his ignorance of science) accuses Fauci of doing. Note the article he posted which is filled with opinions.

That is the thing about Trump supporters. They are long on bias and short on smarts.

[skinster]

I'm guessing the lockdown will continue beyond April 12th.

[Politics_Observer]

@Drlee

He is posting articles that he believes confirms his own biases. It's confirmation bias.

[MistyTiger]

@Doug64

In light of the hate crimes that have just taken place in Atlanta, is this a good idea to be calling this the "Wuhan virus?" Couldn't the name "Wuhan" be considered an ethic identifier and thus racist against Asian Americans the way it used in this context?

I agree. It should not be called the "Wuhan virus". Weeks ago an angry bigot tried to start a fight with my father in a grocery store. I am still pissed about that. If I had been there, I would have started yelling and demanded that the asshat get lost and go bathe in hot water. He could get the virus just from *gasp* breathing.

It is just too bad that my dad did not film it. We could have posted it on social media and humiliated the loser.

[Drlee]

Quite right Misty. And just to put a point on it, there is some doubt that it came from Wuhan. And further, the notion that it came from a weapons lab is nonsense.

Now we can add to the chagrin of the Trump supporters that the initial big government money that jump started research into MRNA vaccines came from a huge grant under....wait for it.......President Obama. He, not Trump, got this show on the road. Because of the Obama grants the work on this vaccine was already substantially done before Trump was even running for office. But never fear. Someone will find an article giving Trump credit.

[Stormsmith]

[url]|'They didn't run the plays': Ex-officials say Trump administration didn't use pandemic 'playbooks'[/url]

President Donald Trump proclaimed in late March that “nobody knew there’d be a pandemic or an epidemic of this proportion.” Confronted with criticism of a lethargic national response, he lamented “a system we inherited” from past administrations.

The problem with both statements, according to former public healthofficials, is that prior administrations not only “knew there’d be a pandemic,” they planned for it – extensively.

They did so by crafting so-called “playbooks” and engaging in “table-top exercises” for hypothetical outbreaks – the results of which bore a striking resemblance to gaps that have emerged in the federal government’s response to COVID-19.

President George W. Bush speaks about the administration's national strategy for pandemic influenza preparedness and response at William Natcher Center of the National Institutes of Health, Nov. 1, 2005, in Bethesda, Md.

“I think that this current pandemic has really played out in many ways similar to exercises and table-top simulations that we had done many years ago,” said Dr. James Lawler, a former White House National Security Council (NSC) official during both the George W. Bush and Barack Obamaadministrations who worked specifically on pandemic preparedness.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/run-plays-officials-trump-administration-pandemic-playbooks/story?id=71999769

[Doug64]

@Pants-of-dog, I think Fauci meant exactly what he said--when asked about the evidence backing his recommendation that the vaccinated not travel, he said, "When you don’t have the data and you don’t have the actual evidence, then you’ve got to make a judgment call." So he didn't have the data or actual evidence, so he made a judgment call. But without evidence or data, his opinion matters no more than anyone else's.

@Doug64

In light of the hate crimes that have just taken place in Atlanta, is this a good idea to be calling this the "Wuhan virus?" Couldn't the name "Wuhan" be considered an ethic identifier and thus racist against Asian Americans the way it used in this context?

First, I don't see why "Wuhan virus" is any more of an ethnic identifier than "Lyme disease." Certainly the MSM(D) had no problem using that label (along with "China virus") until the CCP complained and they realized they had another stick they could beat President Trump with. Second, are you referring to the killing spree by the sex addicted nutcase trying to eliminate the supposed source of his temptation? The one apprehended on the way to Florida, apparently intending to similarly attack a porn industry down there? I don't see how that has anything to do with racism. What does seem racist to me is the assumption that it was a racist hate crime without bothering to wait for the facts.

[Drlee]

@Doug64 "When you don’t have the data and you don’t have the actual evidence, then you’ve got to make a judgment call." So he didn't have the data or actual evidence, so he made a judgment call. But without evidence or data, his opinion matters no more than anyone else's.

Doug really does not see why this statement of his is simply idiotic. He just literally said that the judgment of one of the world's foremost experts on infectious diseases, aided by a staff of doctors and epidemiologists is "no more than anyone else's". That is simply a profoundly stupid thing to say. It is nonsensical. IT will appeal to Trump's less intelligent followers.

[late]

Doug really does not see why this statement of his is simply idiotic. He just literally said that the judgment of one of the world's foremost experts on infectious diseases, aided by a staff of doctors and epidemiologists is "no more than anyone else's". That is simply a profoundly stupid thing to say. It is nonsensical. IT will appeal to Trump's less intelligent followers.

The Right has become a bunch of degenerates.

Not only can they not think, they have literally no concept of governance.

Puppets.