[Kaiserschmarrn]

There are many Europeans that do care, yourself certainly not among them so unable to speak for them.

I certainly don't care as much about Greeks as I care about Autstrians and Britons, far from it. But I'm the rule, not the exception.

You are not making any sense on the other bit, kicking the can down the road is a formula that exists only for the political career of Merkel and co. It is not a formula that exists because of the EU or the eurozone, the EU institutions have actually helped Greece in the crisis with financial(through the budget for grants to small businesses and exceptional students), moral and political support by constraining Merkel and co.

Throw somebody into a hole with no food. If you then throw down some scraps, I'm sure the person would be grateful too.

[QatzelOk]

What was Europe before the EU? Was it a continent with competing nations making wars with each other and colonising others? What would Europe be without the EU? You talk about the EU as if Europe were heaven on earth without it. It must be the EU that prevents Europe from being your dreamland!

No. It wasn't like this just before the EU.

Just before the EU was created, Europe was a continent of nations picking up the pieces of themselves after WW2 and all the greed and international meddling that caused it.

But with the EU, the European elites thought that they could "go back" to their glory days (and everyone else's immiseration) by imitating the USA's winning formula - selling out national autonomy to predatorial (but fast-talking) multinationals.

What a bad idea, and what a load of positive propaganda from our friendly neighborhood bankster media outlets.

[noemon]

I certainly don't care as much about Greeks as I care about Autstrians and Britons, far from it. But I'm the rule, not the exception.

I highly doubt you care about anybody in Europe and you are certainly not on the position of knowing what is the rule in Europe as you are totally ignorant on the European peoples, you are of Austrian ancestry in New Zealand who from what I recall only visits Austria once in a blue moon. You are the last person on earth to profess an opinion on what is the rule and the exception in Europe. I am under the impression that I have more Austrian friends with a regular relationship than you do and you can be rest assured, you are not the rule but as exceptional and opportunistic as Rei.

Throw somebody into a hole with no food. If you then throw down some scraps, I'm sure the person would be grateful too.

I'm not sure it's your style to be channeling Rei with such non-sense. If that is all you have to come back then we can be rest assured that you don't actually have an argument. In case you forget you have to explain how Greece's creditors would be better people if Greece and her creditors were not in the EU.

[Beren]

No. It wasn't like this just before the EU.

Just before the EU was created, Europe was a continent of nations picking up the pieces of themselves after WW2 and all the greed and international meddling that caused it.

But with the EU, the European elites thought that they could "go back" to their glory days (and everyone else's immiseration) by imitating the USA's winning formula - selling out national autonomy to predatorial (but fast-talking) multinationals.

What a bad idea, and what a load of positive propaganda from our friendly neighborhood bankster media outlets.

The USA didn't really invent anything new, they just made it perfect what they inherited from Europe.
However, I still don't see how Europe would be a better place without the EU. In the real world I mean.

[Hong Wu]

Honestly, people could keep the EU if the elites who are generally safe from marauding Arabs, or at least too doped up on anti-anxiety medication to care, would stop putting their self-aggrandizing principles ahead of the masses' peace of mind.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I highly doubt you care about anybody in Europe and you are certainly not on the position of knowing what is the rule in Europe as you are totally ignorant on the European peoples, you are of Austrian ancestry in New Zealand who from what I recall only visits Austria once in a blue moon. You are the last person on earth to profess an opinion on what is the rule and the exception in Europe. I am under the impression that I have more Austrian friends with a regular relationship than you do and you can be rest assured, you are not the rule but as exceptional and opportunistic as Rei.

They "care" a lot, noemon, as long as it doesn't hit their wallets. You can be sure to get plenty of Facebook solidarity though.

I'm not sure it's your style to be channeling Rei with such non-sense. If that is all you have to come back then we can be rest assured that you don't actually have an argument.

Well, it describes Greek's position and relationship with the EU.

[QatzelOk]

The USA didn't really invent anything new, they just made it perfect what they inherited from Europe.
However, I still don't see how Europe would be a better place without the EU. In the real world I mean.

I don't want to live in a world where "real" and "perfect" means that multinationals destroy everything in pursuit of zombie GNP growth.

In my "fake" world (where humans have a chance at survival), the post-genocide non-culture of the USA doesn't serve as any kind of positive model.

I realize that Disney World is more real than survival is... for many media viewers.

[noemon]

Well, it describes Greek's position and relationship with the EU.

In case you forget you have to explain how Greece's creditors would be better people if Greece and her creditors were not in the EU.

You can be sure to get plenty of Facebook solidarity though.

I don't do facebook, I do relationships in real life. The many Austrians I know and have known in real life have been great people that love Greece and the Greeks, who spend their money in Greece and who disagree with the "treatment" that you agreed with yet now appropriate it for other ends pretending to cry pofo(akin to facebook) tears. Austrians willing and ready to hurt their abstract "taxpayer" wallets.

[Beren]

I don't want to live in a world where "real" and "perfect" means that multinationals destroy everything in pursuit of zombie GNP growth.

In my "fake" world (where humans have a chance at survival), the post-genocide non-culture of the USA doesn't serve as any kind of positive model.

I realize that Disney World is more real than survival is... for many media viewers.

Have you realised you still haven't managed to save the world, despite all the biking and posting on internet forums? If you don't want to live in the real world and you also don't have anything real to add to the real world, why not give up living in the real world? Why keep suffering?

[Kaiserschmarrn]

In case you forget you have to explain how Greece's creditors would be better people if Greece and her creditors were not in the EU.

I don't think they would be better people. Why would anybody expect that anyway?

I don't do facebook, I do relationships in real life. The many Austrians I know and have known in real life have been great people that love Greece and the Greeks, who spend their money in Greece and who disagree with the "treatment" that you agreed with yet now appropriate it for other ends pretending to cry pofo(akin to facebook) tears. Austrians willing and ready to hurt their abstract "taxpayer" wallets.

They are great people, and so are Greeks. That they look out for themselves and their own much more so than others doesn't change that fact.

Make no mistake, even basic life support for Greece has no majority support in the populations of countries like Austria, Germany and Finland.

[Hong Wu]

Have you realised you still haven't managed to save the world, despite all the biking and posting on internet forums? If you don't want to live in the real world and you also don't have anything real to add to the real world, why not give up living in the real world? Why keep suffering?

That's not cool man, Qatz is the real deal. He's consistently advocating for what he thinks is right, he's not a hypocrite unlike most of us and I think we should respect that.

[noemon]

I don't think they would be better people. Why would anybody expect that anyway?

You know what I mean, how would the Greece/creditor relationship be any better outside the EU as you claimed?

Make no mistake, even basic life support for Greece has no majority support in the populations of countries like Austria, Germany and Finland.

Make no mistake indeed, racist propaganda is widespread, supported and sanctioned by the political establishment in these countries but still pluralities in these countries do support Greece.

[ingliz]

how would the Greece/creditor relationship be any better outside the EU

Greece could default on its debt and adopt a national currency (the drachma?]. What can Germany do, declare war, I don't think so. Your problems are solved.

[Atlantis]

What was Europe before the EU? Was it a continent with competing nations making wars with each other and colonising others? What would Europe be without the EU? You talk about the EU as if Europe were heaven on earth without it. It must be the EU that prevents Europe from being your dreamland!

I think Europe owes great gratitude to the UK for showing that Brexit does not lead to heaven on earth. The aftermath of the vote shows well that even the populists don't believe in their own lies. They bolt or go into hiding until they can find somebody to guide them out of the mess they have created.

The effect on the elections in Spain is very telling.

[Atlantis]

Greece could default on its debt and adopt a national currency (the drachma?]. What can Germany do, declare war, I don't think so. Your problems are solved.

Germany offered them the exit and wipe their debt clean in the process. They didn't want it. For Greece to leave the euro would completely destroy their economy and might even lead to civil war, which nobody in Europe wants.

All the theories about how wonderful it is to default we hear on this forum are completely devoid of any reality. People talk about theories not about the real Greek economy, which you obviously ignore. What is shocking is that theorists like Varoufakis et al had no idea about how the euro or the EU works. He didn't even have a clue about the Greek economy. He took the country into two more years of recession after it had already started to improve. He himself admitted that, but said it was worth it. Worth what? To flatter his ego? To have his two minutes of fame and ruin his country? Spoiled upper-class prats. Traitors be hanged!

The workers of this continent have to pay with their labor for the mess these no-good upper-class theorists are creating. And I'm truly sick and tired of it.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

You know what I mean, how would the Greece/creditor relationship be any better outside the EU as you claimed?

No, I didn't and still don't know what you mean.

pluralities in these countries do support Greece.

No, it's usually pluralities or outright majorities against the bailouts. Whenever bailout negotiations come up these polls appear in the newspapers and objections to the bailout has shown up consistently over the years. I haven't seen a single one showing support even by a plurality, but if you have come across one, I'd be interested to see it. People just don't believe that they will be paid back, hence the opposition.

But this is just the bailouts, i.e. the pure minimum that Greece needs to stay afloat. Most people don't even want to risk money for that.

I think Europe owes great gratitude to the UK for showing that Brexit does not lead to heaven on earth.

It definitely won't be heaven on earth. But it will also show, together with other European countries outside the EU, that it's not the end of the world. And perhaps one day other Europeans will realise that it does not have to be a yes/no or in/out choice and that they have been robbed of options to decide their own future. At that time we might be able to get rid of the colossus that currently suffocates Europe and replace it with something sane.

[Beren]

This sums up the whole story pretty well.

[youtube]uNsxCU0glHw[/youtube]

[Dr Cosmo]

[noemon]

No, I didn't and still don't know what you mean.

You claimed that during the debt crisis, Greece would be better off outside the EU, you should explain yourself.

But this is just the bailouts, i.e. the pure minimum that Greece needs to stay afloat. Most people don't even want to risk money for that.

If your argument is that people against the Greek bailout deals are anti-Greeks(or simply people who are not willing to sacrifice something for Greece/Europe/EU), then the majority of Greece must be consistently anti-Greek as well.

[Albert]

If Greeks in government really did care for Europe and its people, they would either; fix their economic situation already or leave the Euro Union so as to not be leeches on the system. Otherwise right now they are dishonouring Greece with their actions. Not to mention they allowed Europe to be flooded by migrants. Is this how much Greeks care for their European cousins? It is a shame to think this nation once was cradle of European civilization. Why did Greeks defeat Persians at Marathon? Only to be flooded by orients anyways down the line. So they can make fortunes selling drugs in Europe and destroy our people that way?