Vast protest in Hong Kong against extradition law - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15011343
Patrickov wrote:You underestimated how much some of the Chinese want to "avenge" their ancestors of the "humiliation" in these 200 years (from what I see now, they still totally deserve it).

The Commies primarily were somewhat born out of this semtiment, feeded on this, and now have no choice but to serve this. Many of their supporters see Hongkongers as traitors and will eagerly annihilate us even if that means they have to go through turmoil again.

I don't think they can be stopped by anything short of a good spanking (or even worse, annhilation), if such persecution happens that is.


Soviet Union was stopped by Finland. Now you need to understand that you don't need to win. You just need to not loose which in modern terms means cause more problems than the benefit that can be extracted.

The time is not bad, China is at its weakest in 2 decades. It wants stability but can't afford being isolated right now when it needs to reform the economy from 1 model to another. Do not forget, ultimately this was one of the main causes why the USSR collapsed. The reform itself could have been sucessful in USSR but global isolation made sure it wasn't.

Now having said that, what about everything else? I mean preferably HK wants this to be as bloodless as possible but is it possible? I do not think a war/military conflict is something HK will ever consider but in worst case Chinese crackdown can be pretty brutal. Will it be though? They can't realistically start jailing people in mass and hope that the region will remain pro-Chinese long term unless it reaches Mao/Stalin level. (Which again, is hardly possible for China not to be a Pariah)

So as much as i see it, Chinese options are pretty non-existant against HK if you openly rebel. Small acts they can cover up or jail/remove politicians. But in case of a bigger action there is simply no good way they can react without suffering massive losses. And this is how you basically not loose. And i am not talking about independance or joining back to the UK. There can be measures between the the extremes of bowing down to the Chinese government and fully mocking it.

You need to find the most painful mocking/protest that you can think off and push it down their throat using your local government. You can make China look like a really bad country and make it in to a pariah over time like this. In a sense you want them to backlash but you want to control the size of the backlash not to push them to far in to bloodshed.

Too put it in to simpler words. Marching against a law is fine and dandy but you are playing on the defensive. Take the lead and start causing trouble for the Chinese government by saying something like "We are not represented by the Chinese government", "We ain't gonna pay taxes because of your backwards system", "Chinese government is violating the agreement with the UK", "Come visit us Winie the Pooh" or whatever else what HK people can think of better than me probably.
#15011369
JohnRawls wrote:Soviet Union was stopped by Finland. Now you need to understand that you don't need to win. You just need to not loose which in modern terms means cause more problems than the benefit that can be extracted.

The time is not bad, China is at its weakest in 2 decades. It wants stability but can't afford being isolated right now when it needs to reform the economy from 1 model to another. Do not forget, ultimately this was one of the main causes why the USSR collapsed. The reform itself could have been sucessful in USSR but global isolation made sure it wasn't.

Now having said that, what about everything else? I mean preferably HK wants this to be as bloodless as possible but is it possible? I do not think a war/military conflict is something HK will ever consider but in worst case Chinese crackdown can be pretty brutal. Will it be though? They can't realistically start jailing people in mass and hope that the region will remain pro-Chinese long term unless it reaches Mao/Stalin level. (Which again, is hardly possible for China not to be a Pariah)

So as much as i see it, Chinese options are pretty non-existant against HK if you openly rebel. Small acts they can cover up or jail/remove politicians. But in case of a bigger action there is simply no good way they can react without suffering massive losses. And this is how you basically not loose. And i am not talking about independance or joining back to the UK. There can be measures between the the extremes of bowing down to the Chinese government and fully mocking it.

You need to find the most painful mocking/protest that you can think off and push it down their throat using your local government. You can make China look like a really bad country and make it in to a pariah over time like this. In a sense you want them to backlash but you want to control the size of the backlash not to push them to far in to bloodshed.

Too put it in to simpler words. Marching against a law is fine and dandy but you are playing on the defensive. Take the lead and start causing trouble for the Chinese government by saying something like "We are not represented by the Chinese government", "We ain't gonna pay taxes because of your backwards system", "Chinese government is violating the agreement with the UK", "Come visit us Winie the Pooh" or whatever else what HK people can think of better than me probably.


I am not an activist but they surely do better than I do. AFAIK some small firms are joining a market strike tomorrow. Whether people call for a general strike like Sudan depends on how things go IMO.

Not paying tax is a bit harder because most still fear jail.
#15011388
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Hong ... l_protests

Great write up by whatever Wikipedia editors contributed.

Fuck the CCP.

Politics_Observer wrote:Yeah, the world was watching when Tiannamen Square happened and taking heart didn't seem to do any good for the folks at Tiannamen Square when they were massacred. These communists ARE psychopathic. They're crazy! I can see why the citizens in Hong Kong are concerned. i would be too if I was them.


The Mainland Chinese Government are illegitimate bastards. First HK, then Taiwan is next.

The British didn't have any options in 1997(couldn't afford to run it anymore, didn't need it strategically), but bloody hell I wish they did.
#15011655
Patrickov wrote:The pro-Beijing controlled legislative council merely cancelled the vote but didn't retract. Protesters are not fooled. However, with things going on like this death and destruction is only a matter of time.


Not really. Hong Kong is more naturally isolated and protected (mostly by natural elements) than most people who haven't been there realise. If the CCP attempted to take military control, I think they'd be in major trouble finally. Not as simple an operation, even with today's technology, as people think it is(otherwise they would done that in the 60s-70s under Mao already).

But Carrie Lam needs to be swiftly removed. She is too cosy with the mainlanders. The Hong Kong legislators should remove her from power. She has got to go now.
#15011656
colliric wrote:Not really. Hong Kong is more naturally isolated and protected (mostly by natural elements) than most people who haven't been there realise. If the CCP attempted to take military control, I think they'd be in major trouble finally. Not as simple an operation, even with today's technology, as people think it is(otherwise they would done that in the 60s-70s under Mao already).

But Carrie Lam needs to be swiftly removed. She is too cosy with the mainlanders. The Hong Kong legislators should remove her from power. She has got to go now.


A majority of Hong Kong legislators are more pro-Beijing than she is. (Edit:) They have to be removed as well.

In fact I start to think that Lam might be a bigger double-agent than Donald Tsang (NOT Trump), who got punished by Beijing for not enforcing anything advancing Beijing interests. Lam exposed how Hong Kong are utterly anti-CCP, more than her predecessor. It's possible that she does this on purpose.

One thing to bear in mind is that pro-Beijing politicians are actually under bigger threat under this bill than us.
#15011780
Beren wrote:Sorry guys, but HK will be part of China as Shanghai is, for example, simply because it's China and nobody will do anything about it. Same with Taiwan, it's just a matter of more time and effort.


That's what Mao said.....

Couldn't do it....
#15011784
Beren wrote:Sorry guys, but HK will be part of China as Shanghai is, for example, simply because it's China and nobody will do anything about it. Same with Taiwan, it's just a matter of more time and effort.


Frankly, if the effort is correct (e.g. the Chinese making their society more fair, open and moral), not only it isn't a matter whether HK and TW are under Chinese rule or not, I possibly would even consider moving back inland.

It's not that they didn't work hard, but rather they work hard to be wrong. In that case, not only I am rejecting it, I want it defeated as well.
#15011879
Beren wrote:But they've been getting closer since Mao, haven't they? Which is the point here: time works for China. So the best you could hope for is that it won't happen in your lifetime.


With the people so eager to escape the country, I think the reverse is also possible if not more likely.
#15011881
Patrickov wrote:With the people so eager to escape the country, I think the reverse is also possible if not more likely.

Good for you then, however, I'd still rather bet both HK and Taiwan will be parts of China sooner or later, so if you don't want to live in China or don't want your descendants to live in China, then you'd better leave or prepare to do so.
#15011883
Today seems to be a pause. It's amazing how the protesters free up the place in just a night.

The pro-Beijing force controlled Legislative Council is not going to meet for the rest of the week, while a new protest is proposed on Sunday.

======

For a person so belligerent to China these days, Trumps sounds rather lenient to the oppressors in response to our lament.

I can guess he's trying to play "Good Cop", leaving the dirty work to the Congress; but if Xi Jinping, Carrie Lam or whoever behind this plays hard, they will probably be in big trouble because Trump can be at times no less face-saving than Xi (whose face-saving characteristics are, IMO, to blame for many of challenges China is facing in recent years).


Global backing for protest rights as Trump hopes Hong Kong can ‘work it out’

Donald Trump has said he is sure China and Hong Kong “will be able to work it out” as the international community has called for protesters’ rights to be respected and demonstrators vowed not to retreat over their calls for the extradition bill to be scrapped.

On Wednesday police used used rubber bullets, batons and teargas against people in Hong Kong protesting against the bill that would tighten Beijing’s grip on the semi-autonomous territory.

The US president, who is engaged in a major trade war with Beijing, said he hoped the protesters could “work it out” with Beijing. “I understand the reason for the demonstration, but I’m sure they will be able to work it out.” He did not say how he thought the issue would be resolved.

Speaking at the White House, Trump said the demonstrations were massive. “That was a million people. That was as big a demonstration as I’ve ever seen,” he said.

“So, I hope it all works out for China and for Hong Kong,” Trump added. “I understand the reason for the demonstration but I’m sure they will be able to work it out. I hope they’re going to be able to work it out with China.”


The European Union said rights “need to be respected” in Hong Kong. “Over the past days, the people of Hong Kong have exercised their fundamental right to assemble and express themselves freely and peacefully. These rights need to be respected,” the EU’s external affairs ministry statement said.

“Restraint should be exercised by all sides; violence and escalatory responses must be avoided,” it added.


The outgoing British prime minister, Theresa May, called for the rights and freedoms set out in the 1984 Sino-British agreement on Hong Kong’s future to be respected.

“It is vital that those extradition arrangements in Hong Kong are in line with the rights and freedoms that were set down in the Sino-British joint declaration,” May told parliament in London.

The British foreign secretary, Jeremy Hunt, echoed her words, urging the Hong Kong government to “listen to the concerns of its people and its friends in the international community and to pause and reflect on these controversial measures”.

“It is essential that the authorities engage in meaningful dialogue and take steps to preserve Hong Kong’s rights and freedoms and high degree of autonomy, which underpin its international reputation,” Hunt said.


US Representative James McGovern, a Democrat, said he and Republican co-sponsors planned to put forward legislation on Wednesday or Thursday that would likely raise the standard for determining whether Hong Kong was sufficiently autonomous to receive special treatment from the US on trade and economics.

“The president should look at the reaction in Congress,” McGovern said. “There is bipartisan outrage over what is happening ... peaceful protesters being met with terrible violence by Hong Kong security forces. It’s unacceptable.”


The Australian government raised concerns about the proposed amendments to the extradition laws and supported the right to peaceful protest and urged restraint on all sides.

Foreign affairs minister Marise Payne said: “The Australian government believes it is important that any changes to Hong Kong’s extradition arrangements are ... resolved in a way that fully respects Hong Kong’s high degree of autonomy and upholds the rights and freedoms enshrined in Hong Kon’g Basic Law under the ‘one country, two systems’ framework.”


On Wednesday, Hong Kong’s leader, chief executive Carrie Lam, called the protests “dangerous and life threatening acts”. She noted that some young people in the crowd had expressed their views peacefully, but said the protest had devolved into a “blatant, organised riot”.


Taiwan’s president, Tsai Ing-wen, said her nation supported the protesters. “You may feel your demands for freedom seem to fall on deaf ears, please know that all like-minded friends in #Taiwan & around the world are standing with you,” she tweeted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/jun/13/global-reaction-hong-kong-protest-rights-trump-may
#15011884
Beren wrote:Good for you then, however, I'd still rather bet both HK and Taiwan will be parts of China sooner or later, so if you don't want to live in China or don't want your descendants to live in China, then you'd better leave or prepare to do so.


Not me. Leaving will mean admitting defeat. Better find a way to win, or at least witness those I hope to win rolling in.
#15011972
fuser wrote:lol supporters of colonialism being pissed at PRC, that can mean only one thing, PRC is doing absolutely fine. Good for PRC and all Chinese people.


You are mixing up something, although seeing you quote Karl Marx of all people it's rather predictable.

No one is saying they support colonialism by default. Instead, PRC keep pissing people off is the reason that some thinks colonialism is better.

The Chinese System advocates nepotism and bribery, as well as violence of the authority especially if your action threatens their priviledged position (regardless of whether you intend to undermine them or not). British Colonialism, at least at the times since Murray MacLehose, seemed much more benevolent and reasonable. Chris Patten even let us experience what true democracy should be.
#15011976
Zionist Nationalist wrote:You have no chance against China either you obey or you are getting fucked.
it doesn't matter how many protesters there will be they dont give a shit about your opinion


This is truth. In due time, Hong Kong will become another Mandarin speaking city.

@Patrickov, Will Cantonese survive as a language and culture when Hong Kong is lost?
#15011977
Rancid wrote:This is truth. In due time, Hong Kong will become another Mandarin speaking city.


No it won't. It's too isolated from the mainland.

Patrickov wrote:Will Cantonese survive as a language and culture when Hong Kong is lost?


Yes it will. Cantonese Chinese still dominate the diaspora communities.
Last edited by colliric on 14 Jun 2019 03:13, edited 1 time in total.

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