No wonder Labour antisemitism got the Panorama treatment Tory racism is too much to fit into 1 hour - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15017675
@Kaiserschmarrn @noemon Any political party have a share of crazies and usually it's a matter of either keeping them quite, normalizing their behaviour or expelling them. For labour expelling them is not an option because many labour supporters are of the opinion that Israel shouldn't exist for example. I don't think that is very antisemitic but it is borderline honestly. The same people might do other stupid thing like shout "Jews are pigs" or something akin to that not to mention that you must absolutely make sure that it doesn't translate in to decision making/hiring/policy. Otherwise you are going to get in to hot water. The problem is that they do not recognize that what might be okay for some labour to do is not really okay for the rest of the people in the country. Look at our local labour supporters, they have overstepped the antiisrael position in to antijewish position on many occasions. So the situation is honestly not a surprise and it's labours fault honestly. They can learn a thing or two from the republicans on this.
#15017733
noemon wrote:You have not presented any evidence on your claim that Labour are accusing their opponents with unsubstantiated hearsay against unnamed individuals.

I don't think anybody could have missed the vilification of Brexiteers, whether it's the claim that they have unleashed shocking bigotry and hate in society, or being directly called racists, nazis, not fit to vote, etc.

JohnRawls wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn @noemon Any political party have a share of crazies and usually it's a matter of either keeping them quite, normalizing their behaviour or expelling them. For labour expelling them is not an option because many labour supporters are of the opinion that Israel shouldn't exist for example. I don't think that is very antisemitic but it is borderline honestly. The same people might do other stupid thing like shout "Jews are pigs" or something akin to that not to mention that you must absolutely make sure that it doesn't translate in to decision making/hiring/policy. Otherwise you are going to get in to hot water. The problem is that they do not recognize that what might be okay for some labour to do is not really okay for the rest of the people in the country. Look at our local labour supporters, they have overstepped the antiisrael position in to antijewish position on many occasions. So the situation is honestly not a surprise and it's labours fault honestly. They can learn a thing or two from the republicans on this.

Once you start looking and digging, especially at a lower level, you'll find people saying all kinds of stuff that would be unacceptable for national politicians. Sometimes this actually is prejudice and hate, but more often than not it's just people not weighing their words carefully. It can be just ignorance too. Recently, a union member used the words "rootless" and "cosmopolitan" in a sentence and people came down on him hard for his supposed anti-semitism, when it was pretty clear that he was unaware of the connotations. The left has made this kind of hyper-sensitivity and hyper-vigilance acceptable and has used it liberally as a weapon. They are now aghast and angry that it's used against them too.

One important rule is that once organisations that are supposed to represent a minority community and members of that community come out against you and, as has happened with the Labour party, make statements about how terrible the situation is for them within the party and that they were traumatised and harmed, etc. you are in dangerous territory. It's the same principle that underlies hate crime reporting in that the only thing that matters is the perception of the victims.

Personally, I certainly wish we didn't live in an environment where those with the thinnest skins and the most uncharitable interpretations were given as much of a say and platform, but in this case I get at least some entertainment from the reaction of those who thought they were immune to these attacks.
#15017786
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I don't think anybody could have missed the vilification of Brexiteers, whether it's the claim that they have unleashed shocking bigotry and hate in society, or being directly called racists, nazis, not fit to vote, etc.


I don't think that anyone has missed the fact that Jeremy Corbyn's Labour has been counted among those you deem "Brexiteers" in this respect. Your argument is wrong innuendo.

The left has made this kind of hyper-sensitivity and hyper-vigilance acceptable and has used it liberally as a weapon. They are now aghast and angry that it's used against them too. Personally, I certainly wish we didn't live in an environment where those with the thinnest skins and the most uncharitable interpretations were given as much of a say and platform, but in this case I get at least some entertainment from the reaction of those who thought they were immune to these attacks.


As above you are blaming the wrong person/organisation, you are implicitly supporting the weaponisation of this hyper-vigilance and you are reducing the standards of that hyper-vigilance as well in that even the "general left" you talk about at least names and shames the "racist, pedophile, predator" in question with a video of some type of action, or at least cites a study, poll, something. Here we have absolutely nothing at all. Your trolling comments are more suitable to the SJW thread rather than actively trying to turn this on-topic thread into the SJW thread with your own generalisations and innuendoes.

One important rule is that once organisations that are supposed to represent a minority community and members of that community come out against you and, as has happened with the Labour party, make statements about how terrible the situation is for them within the party and that they were traumatised and harmed, etc. you are in dangerous territory. It's the same principle that underlies hate crime reporting in that the only thing that matters is the perception of the victims.


One important rule that everyone should remember is that alleged victims should name their attackers and presumed actions otherwise there is no case, not even up for discussion.
#15017803
Rich wrote:Labour are not in the slightest bit anti-semitic, that is a filthy racist lie, if anything Labour are philo-semitic. They may be anti-Jewish, but that's another matter. Jewish supremacist racists pushed the use of the term anti-Semitism, in order to encode anti Arab racism into our language. The subliminal message is that the only Semites that really matter are Jews, even when the Jews aren't even Semites. Arguably modern Israeli Hebrew has actually been de-semticised, it has been Indo-Europeanised.

Jewish supremacists are very aware of the importance of setting the terminological terrain as a good military leader chooses the geographical terrain for a battle. Its funny because normally Marxists and Cultural Marxists are hyper aware of terminology. The Palestinian nationalist movement on the other hand must one of the most incompetent "liberation" movements ever to grace the face of the earth.

Well, no, you've just made all that up. The history of the term is well-known; it came from 19th century Germans trying to make their opposition to Jews sound philosophical or rational, rather than prejudiced:

Pseudoscientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. He coined the phrase "the Jews are our misfortune" which would later be widely used by Nazis. According to Avner Falk, Treitschke uses the term "Semitic" almost synonymously with "Jewish", in contrast to Renan's use of it to refer to a whole range of peoples, based generally on linguistic criteria.

According to Jonathan M. Hess, the term was originally used by its authors to "stress the radical difference between their own 'antisemitism' and earlier forms of antagonism toward Jews and Judaism."

In 1879 German journalist Wilhelm Marr published a pamphlet, Der Sieg des Judenthums über das Germanenthum. Vom nicht confessionellen Standpunkt aus betrachtet (The Victory of the Jewish Spirit over the Germanic Spirit. Observed from a non-religious perspective) in which he used the word Semitismus interchangeably with the word Judentum to denote both "Jewry" (the Jews as a collective) and "jewishness" (the quality of being Jewish, or the Jewish spirit).

This use of Semitismus was followed by a coining of "Antisemitismus" which was used to indicate opposition to the Jews as a people and opposition to the Jewish spirit, which Marr interpreted as infiltrating German culture. His next pamphlet, Der Weg zum Siege des Germanenthums über das Judenthum (The Way to Victory of the Germanic Spirit over the Jewish Spirit, 1880), presents a development of Marr's ideas further and may present the first published use of the German word Antisemitismus, "antisemitism".

The pamphlet became very popular, and in the same year he founded the Antisemiten-Liga (League of Antisemites), apparently named to follow the "Anti-Kanzler-Liga" (Anti-Chancellor League). The league was the first German organization committed specifically to combating the alleged threat to Germany and German culture posed by the Jews and their influence, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisemitism

There were, of course, hardly any Arabs living in Germany then (and they weren't significant in world politics, living mostly in areas controlled by the Ottomans, or being colonised by Europeans); it's obvious, to anyone who gives it a moment's thought, that it was directed against Jews. The irony is that, by pretending there is any misunderstanding of what everyone else means by 'antisemitism', it is you who is trying to "set the terminological terrain".
#15017859






Lol at rightwingers ITT trying to act as though Labour antisemitism isn't obviously manufactured nonsense coming from Israel. At least two of the characters in this episode of Panorama work(ed) for the Israeli embassy. Why did Panorama think nobody would notice they'd have these same people that were filmed undercover in The Lobby threatening to take down pro-Palestinian supporters and lawmakers? They really fucked up here and it remains hilarious. :lol:

Labour MPs/members under attack are those who support Palestine and are Corbyn allies. This is a way for the establishment to attack Corbyn, not much more. And it's very hard to take seriously the crying about antisemitism while supporting a racist ideology (Zionism).

This is nothing new.


JohnRawls wrote:blah blah blah because many labour supporters are of the opinion that Israel shouldn't exist for example.


Stating Palestinians should have the same rights as others in the land shouldn't be considered a crime.

Anyway, Labour policy on Israel supports the 2-state solution (even though that's absurd when you consider material reality, including the reality in recent years where Israel has stated outright its denial of a Palestinian state).

The same people might do other stupid thing like shout "Jews are pigs" or something akin to that


Stop making shit up.

Look at our local labour supporters, they have overstepped the antiisrael position in to antijewish position on many occasions.


Antizionism is not antisemitism.
#15017952
noemon wrote:I don't think that anyone has missed the fact that Jeremy Corbyn's Labour has been counted among those you deem "Brexiteers" in this respect. Your argument is wrong innuendo.

I agree that there's an element of the left eating itself here which only increases my amusement.

noemon wrote:As above you are blaming the wrong person/organisation, you are implicitly supporting the weaponisation of this hyper-vigilance and you are reducing the standards of that hyper-vigilance as well in that even the "general left" you talk about at least names and shames the "racist, pedophile, predator" in question with a video of some type of action, or at least cites a study, poll, something. Here we have absolutely nothing at all. Your trolling comments are more suitable to the SJW thread rather than actively trying to turn this on-topic thread into the SJW thread with your own generalisations and innuendoes.

One important rule that everyone should remember is that alleged victims should name their attackers and presumed actions otherwise there is no case, not even up for discussion.

Allegations of institutionalised anti-semitism don't require the naming of perpetrators. It permeates the Labour party to such an extent that people are not even aware of it, therefore protestations to the contrary are useless and might even be taken as proof for the alleged anti-semitism.
#15017957
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I agree that there's an element of the left eating itself here which only increases my amusement.


Allegations of institutionalised anti-semitism don't require the naming of perpetrators. It permeates the Labour party to such an extent that people are not even aware of it, therefore protestations to the contrary are useless and might even be taken as proof for the alleged anti-semitism.


Kind off that is why things are going the way they are: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nd-attacks

1/3rd of UK electorate thinks that Labour is anti-semitic. Peers are quitting because of this. Senior leadership are getting the way apparently. So basically many members don't understand that a large chunk of people consider their actions and situation anti-semitic, i guess this is just getting worse and worse for them. Whistle-blowers will probably sue Labour for this.
#15017958
JohnRawls wrote:Kind off that is why things are going the way they are: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... nd-attacks

1/3rd of UK electorate thinks that Labour is anti-semitic. Peers are quitting because of this. Senior leadership are getting the way apparently. So basically many members don't understand that a large chunk of people consider their actions and situation anti-semitic, i guess this is just getting worse and worse for them. Whistle-blowers will probably sue Labour for this.

I haven't looked into this in detail, although I've seen quite a lot claims like this:

That said, I think we can't discount the fact that New Labour wants to get rid of the hard left in the Labour party.

Some in the Labour party also seem to be ill-equipped in dealing with this:

"It's not fair" :lol:
#15017959
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I haven't looked into this in detail, although I've seen quite a lot claims like this:

That said, I think we can't discount the fact that New Labour wants to get rid of the hard left in the Labour party.

Some in the Labour party also seem to be ill-equipped in dealing with this:

"It's not fair" :lol:


I wonder if they understand how dumb/ludicrous they sound to most of the people out there. Especially people who don't really care about politics. I think it is a good benchmark, if you sound like a wacko to the average joe then you are doing something severely wrong.

And yeah, "It's not fair" is one of such cases. Political competition is probably the least fair form of competition in the world.
#15017963
JohnRawls wrote:
I wonder if they understand how dumb/ludicrous they sound to most of the people out there. Especially people who don't really care about politics. I think it is a good benchmark, if you sound like a wacko to the average joe then you are doing something severely wrong.

And yeah, "It's not fair" is one of such cases. Political competition is probably the least fair form of competition in the world.

It also suggests that most of them are not used to this kind of treatment and questioning. Farage or even most Tory MPs could probably teach them something.

-----------------------------------------------

As an example of an increasingly common way of left-wing reasoning, here's David Lammy doubling down on comparing the ERG to nazis.

#15018008
JohnRawls wrote:@Kaiserschmarrn @noemon Any political party have a share of crazies and usually it's a matter of either keeping them quite, normalizing their behaviour or expelling them. For labour expelling them is not an option because many labour supporters are of the opinion that Israel shouldn't exist for example. I don't think that is very antisemitic but it is borderline honestly. The same people might do other stupid thing like shout "Jews are pigs" or something akin to that not to mention that you must absolutely make sure that it doesn't translate in to decision making/hiring/policy. Otherwise you are going to get in to hot water. The problem is that they do not recognize that what might be okay for some labour to do is not really okay for the rest of the people in the country. Look at our local labour supporters, they have overstepped the antiisrael position in to antijewish position on many occasions. So the situation is honestly not a surprise and it's labours fault honestly. They can learn a thing or two from the republicans on this.


On a side note, I think the case of being anti-Semitic because of the atrocities done by Israel is stronger than being anti-China because of the Chinese Communist Party.

I, and in fact some figures of authority in my family / social circle, justify the latter because we have no faith in the possible regime(s) that replace the Commies, and the history of the Chinese in the last millennia had done a great part in twisting their minds in a wrong way. IMHO the Jewish people and the Israelite state face similar problems, and their (relatively) democratic system means that a large number of ordinary Israelites are probably in agreement with their ultra-nationalist policy makers, at least because loosening up right now would mean certain death.

Unless both sides learn that getting to peace and quelling their "crazies" is already necessary to simply open dialogue, I fail to see this ending well.
#15018331
Tory government illegally targets and deports Black people that have lived here for generations. Racist? Not at all.



Tory leadership hopeful makes astonishing racist remarks:

wiki wrote:Johnson described black people in The Telegraph as "piccaninnies" with "watermelon smiles" and his 2006 comparison between the frequently changing leadership of the Conservatives to cannibalism in Papua New Guinea drew criticism from the country's high commission.[60] In April 2016, in an article for The Sun, in response to the removal of a bust of Winston Churchill from the Oval Office following Barack Obama's inauguration, Johnson wrote that Obama was motivated by "the part-Kenyan president's ancestral dislike of the British Empire – of which Churchill had been such a fervent defender".[61] The comments were described as "deeply offensive" by Churchill's grandson, Conservative MP Sir Nicholas Soames, who called the article "deplorable" and "completely idiotic".[62] Obama called Johnson the British version of Donald Trump following the article, and was "taken aback" by the perceived racial connotations of Johnson's remarks.[61]


Tory party members:

OP wrote:Forty-two per cent of Conservative members believe “having people from a wide variety of racial and cultural backgrounds” has damaged British society. This will be why Conservative members idolise politicians prepared to protect the kind of British life a common person can relate to, such as wearing a monocle, reciting morning prayers in Latin and having 19 kids they never see until they’ve left Eton, giving them names like Septicaemia, and Greater Flamingo (Phoenicopterus Roseus).

Still, this is only the members and anyone who led the party would be vigilant in rooting out prejudice, in the same way they demand Corbyn takes on antisemitism. That’s why Boris Johnson approached the issue with stern determination, saying women in burqas look like letter boxes and bank robbers. If only Corbyn had been as thorough in opposing antisemitism, saying Hebrew sounds like the noise a car makes when the gearbox has gone, the Tories would never mention the issue again.

Fifteen Conservative councillors were suspended for comments such as describing Muslims as “cavemen” and “sand peasants”, and unlike Labour, the Conservatives acted quickly in these cases, because in a few weeks they were all reinstated. It shows the speed a party can move at if it tries.


Notice how the BBC in Kaiser's twitter link is absolutely aghast at the idea that the Tories could be racist and is basically telling David Lammy off for calling them as such despite being aware of all of the above and the use of language such as "Grand Wizard" in Mogg's website but the same BBC has spent public money trying to convince Britain that Labour is antisemitic because it has expelled only 15 people for antisemitism. "Appalling and disgusting" this was described by those interviewed.

This is for those who religiously believe that the MSM are "leftist" :lol:

Regarding Margaret Hodge, she is the one who insulted her own Labour party leader, was then sent a disciplinary notice for "bringing the party into disrepute" and compared that notice to the Jewish experience in Nazi Germany.
#15018382
noemon wrote:Tory government illegally targets and deports Black people that have lived here for generations. Racist? Not at all.

Tory leadership hopeful makes astonishing racist remarks:

Tory party members:

Notice how the BBC in Kaiser's twitter link is absolutely aghast at the idea that the Tories could be racist despite being aware of all of the above and the use of language such as "Grand Wizard" in Mogg's website but the same BBC has spent public money trying to convince Britain that Labour is antisemitic because it has expelled only 15 people for antisemitism. "Appalling and disgusting" this was described by those interviewed.

These are excellent examples of what I'm talking about and why I'm delighted to see the anti-semitism row continue.

noemon wrote:Regarding Margaret Hodge, she is the one who insulted her own Labour party leader, was then sent a disciplinary notice for "bringing the party into disrepute" and compared that notice to the Jewish experience in Nazi Germany.

Not a good look to attack the victim of anti-semitic verbal abuse.
#15018388
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:These are excellent examples of what I'm talking about and why I'm delighted to see the anti-semitism row continue.


You are supporting the Windrush scandal I understand and claim that real Tory racist policy is the same as anecdotes and innuendo? :hmm:

Not a good look to attack the victim of anti-semitic verbal abuse.


How is it an attack?

-----

As an aside it is quite disappointing reading such things from the same person who said this to another poster:

Kaiserschmarrn wrote:It looks like none of those who are insinuating that the protests were fabricated by the US/west seem to be prepared to put forward a concrete case, preferring to rely on innuendo, counter questions and dismissive or flippant comments in response to valid questions.


Why are you practicing the posting behaviour you are accusing others for?
#15018396
noemon wrote:You are supporting the Windrush scandal I understand and claim that real Tory racist policy is the same as anecdotes and innuendo? :hmm:

How is it an attack?

I'm playing by the established left-wing rules under which your comments about Hodge constitute an attack of a traumatised victim.

noemon wrote:As an aside it is quite disappointing reading such things from the same person who said this to another poster: Why are you practicing the posting behaviour you are accusing others for?

You misunderstand what I'm saying to skinster. She refused to make any claim at all.
#15018401
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:I'm playing by the established left-wing rules under which your comments about Hodge constitute an attack of a traumatised victim.


And I'm asking you how are my words an attack?

You misunderstand what I'm saying to skinster. She refused to make any claim at all.


She did make a claim. You 're not making any sense. You are behaving exactly like she was behaving in that thread with innuendo, anecdotes and flippancy.
#15018407
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Criticism of minorities who are victims of abuse is taken to be an attack.


How is what I wrote about Hodge in any way "a criticism"? You are not making any sense.

No.


You are not making any sense here either. Skinster did make a claim in other thread and relied on innuendo and flippancy to argue her claim that the Hong Kong protesters were US stooges/pawns rather than honest and real protesters for their own human rights. You are also using and abusing the exact same tactics in this thread and you are being proud about it too. :?:

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