Netanyahu: Iran had Nukes + If i'm elected, Jordan Valley is "officially" ours...... - Page 4 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15033409
Presvias wrote:With respect, tribal populations do tend to look after their own but only in certain ways, they're all different...and such doesn't mean they're not poor.


I'm not entirely sure that's anasawad's intentions here. His point is that most tribals don't struggle to meet basic needs which is false if most of the Jordanian population is tribal.

I'm convinced that tribal relations, while significant, aren't big factors in how Arabs or Jordanians make decisions. Tribes may influence behavior but they do not determine it. Tribes are also incredibly diverse so homogenously stating that they act in a specific way isn't useful.

Furthermore, Islamic charity & zakat in certain countries means you can often turn up at a stranger's door or friend's house and say 'feed me brother' and you will be helped - not everywhere you understand, but it exists in plenty of places, and again it's not uniform in any one country. (I'm not sure if any of that is relevant to the Jordanian tribes ans refers to though, but I suspect it probably is - almsgiving is highly encouraged amongst some Muslims)


That's not what zakat is (zakat is the institutionalized practice of wealth redistribution) but you're referring to a completely different practice. And you can't give hospitality if you have nothing. In Arab societies, the poor deal with the lack of an ability to meet the charitability standards that society expects of them.

If you were invited or asked for food from a poor family, they would give you pretty much all they have and do it with a smile but they'll be aching in their hearts.

That's not my anecdotal opinion gathered from the internet, it's what multiple Islamic friends from varying countries have told me face to face about how life differs from life in the west.


Yeah I know.

I was an anarchist when I was 19; you're 16. There are many aspects of anarchism that are fascinating both historically as well as philosophically, but I do not believe it is necessarily the most practicable system going..as borne out by the Spanish in Catalunya and the Makhnovishchina.


The lessons gained from Catalonia and other experiments can be used to develop better experiments in the future. Progress is an experimental process that is always changing.

And none of those anarchist societies survived long enough to make the assertion that they can't work. And don't claim that lack of survivability is an issue because they dealt with great amounts of pressure both economically and militarily and they still survived soooo.

With the utmost of respect, your life experiences are probably not as broad as ours; and the other poster is right...you do come across as not fully understanding the ME's very differing cultures and tribes.


I do. I just type on my phone so I can't go in too deep.
#15033410
@Palmyrene
Yeah I know. You said a couple. That's the emphasis here.

There are around 3 or so million Palestinians, so roughly a third. add the foreigners, and you get over half of the total population.

Then explain the poor tribal dude.

Not all define poverty the same way.
And I doubt there is an Egyptian guy who is tribal, have trouble getting food, but somehow can afford an internet line.

If 62% of the population is in a tribe and thus taken care of then they shouldn't have such large amounts of poverty.

62% of Jordanians.

This is what I said:
62% of Jordanians are tribal.


Jordanians aren't a majority in Jordan.

The current population of Jordan is a little over 10 million, around 10.5 million; Of those, around 2 million Syrians (primarily refugees), Million Iraqi and Egyptians, around half a million other nationalities, around 2.5-3 million Palestinians, and the rest ( over 4 million) are Jordanian.
Of Jordanians, 62% are active tribal members.
Noting that Palestinians with Jordanian passports are counted as 1948 Palestinians, and not full Jordanian citizens since they can't vote.

Jordanian tribes, as with all other tribes, extend beyond the borders of Jordan, simply their capitals are in Jordan.
This is why Banni Hassan has over a million members, yet they don't make up 10% of the population of Jordan, their capital is in Jordan however.

Added that the tribes own the majority of the land and all the major resources, foreigners primarily live in Amman and rarely outside of it.
#15033414
JohnRawls wrote:No. Corruption happens everywhere and you need to punish it. His other policies were very pro-Israel and pissed off 95% of the world. So blaming all sins on him and roasting him kinda solves some foreign relations for Israel. So why not?

I believe one must be proven guilty in a court, even in Israel, before punishment can be legally imposed. Netanyahu is standing up against the bad actors in the region. To me, that seems to be a good reason to re-elect him. All the Israeli settlers in the West Bank of the Jordan Valley should be happy with his campaign promise to annex it. He also gets along very well with President Trump. That should be a big plus for him.
Last edited by Hindsite on 12 Sep 2019 03:02, edited 1 time in total.
#15033417
anasawad wrote:@Palmyrene
There are around 3 or so million Palestinians, so roughly a third. add the foreigners, and you get over half of the total population.


Like I said, it's like blacks.

Not all define poverty the same way.
And I doubt there is an Egyptian guy who is tribal, have trouble getting food, but somehow can afford an internet line.


He can't afford an internet line. He goes to an internet cafe.


62% of Jordanians.

This is what I said:


Jordanians aren't a majority in Jordan.

The current population of Jordan is a little over 10 million, around 10.5 million; Of those, around 2 million Syrians (primarily refugees), Million Iraqi and Egyptians, around half a million other nationalities, around 2.5-3 million Palestinians, and the rest ( over 4 million) are Jordanian.
Of Jordanians, 62% are active tribal members.
Noting that Palestinians with Jordanian passports are counted as 1948 Palestinians, and not full Jordanian citizens since they can't vote.


Like I said, it doesn't explain poverty and the article specifically states Jordanian citizens.

Jordanian tribes, as with all other tribes, extend beyond the borders of Jordan, simply their capitals are in Jordan.
This is why Banni Hassan has over a million members, yet they don't make up 10% of the population of Jordan, their capital is in Jordan however.

Added that the tribes own the majority of the land and all the major resources, foreigners primarily live in Amman and rarely outside of it.


It isn't the tribes that own the land and major resources, it's individuals who hold land and major resources.

Regardless, tribes are highly complex and heterogeneous. Despite what you've said before, you do not write as if they were heterogeneous groups, you write as if they were homogenous.

Tribes aren't states. They're their own thing. It may look like they're states because states seem them as competitors but they're not states.
#15033422
Palmyrene wrote:I'm not entirely sure that's anasawad's intentions here. His point is that most tribals don't struggle to meet basic needs which is false if most of the Jordanian population is tribal.


You're not understanding his or my point, I think. You associate tribalism, wrongly, with poverty.

I'm convinced that tribal relations, while significant, aren't big factors in how Arabs or Jordanians make decisions. Tribes may influence behavior but they do not determine it. Tribes are also incredibly diverse so homogenously stating that they act in a specific way isn't useful.


Well, what hard evidence do you base your assertions on?

That's not what zakat is (zakat is the institutionalized practice of wealth redistribution) but you're referring to a completely different practice.


No I referred to 'Islamic charity & zakat' specifically & seperately to clarify my point.

If by institutionalised, you mean redistributed by the state, then you are ttechnically off the mark. According to the undp; jordanian zakat is both voluntary and there are several different organisations that offer such, not one big state agency; there are multi philanthropic ventures set up to disburse & collect zakat.

Plus, zakat funds don't mean official funds per se, there could easily be tribal areas that are very much cut off from the state; where community self-sufficiency is the only option. I think he referred to this already. Therefore, almsgiving and zakat would only be available locally.

I've read books on Islam, lived with Sunni Muslims and read part of the qu'ran. I'm not ignorant if this subject.

And you can't give hospitality if you have nothing. In Arab societies, the poor deal with the lack of an ability to meet the charitability standards that society expects of them.


Where does your assertion come from that these Jordanian tribes 'have nothing' to give?

If you were invited or asked for food from a poor family, they would give you pretty much all they have and do it with a smile but they'll be aching in their hearts.


If you're referring to Islamic countries, that's possible but by no means the norm. You're making rather large generalizations. Some poor families have an abundance of food but no access to healthcare, or an abundance of both but poor quality shelter, or any number of other things.

You have to factor these things in.

The lessons gained from Catalonia and other experiments can be used to develop better experiments in the future. Progress is an experimental process that is always changing.

And none of those anarchist societies survived long enough to make the assertion that they can't work. And don't claim that lack of survivability is an issue because they dealt with great amounts of pressure both economically and militarily and they still survived soooo.


Perhaps. But you place too much weight in one ideology and you'll be disappointed 9 times out of 10. Most if not all ideologies are impracticable in reality, yet they probably could work if the world was just 1% different. The same is true for capitalism.

Most if not all ideologies just lead to some kind of dictatorship/tyranny and total monopoly; power corrupts. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"
#15033423
@Palmyrene
Like I said, it's like blacks.

When will stop with this bullshit comparison.
Palestinians, in both Lebanon and Jordan, are foreign refugees, They're not Lebanese nor Jordanians. It's in the name, PALESTINIANS.

He can't afford an internet line. He goes to an internet cafe.

:|

Like I said, it doesn't explain poverty and the article specifically states Jordanian citizens.

Look at the areas and origins.

Poverty, by national standards is barely existing in tribal areas. It's concentrated in Amman and, recently, Mafraq with Syrians coming along.

By national standards, they consider a person poor only if he\she can barely afford food and does below minimum wage, which gets you around 35% of the overall population.
Everytime you increase the standard, the rate goes up, by the time you raise it to just below middle class, you start getting tribal areas in.

It isn't the tribes that own the land and major resources, it's individuals who hold land and major resources.

And who are those individuals?

Regardless, tribes are highly complex and heterogeneous. Despite what you've said before, you do not write as if they were heterogeneous groups, you write as if they were homogenous.

They're not homogenous. But the tribes in the Levant all, with minor exceptions, have social safety nets.
And tribes, in general, help their own. It's why they still exist, those that don't have been pacified and dissolved long ago.

That doesn't mean they're homogenous, not all systems are the same and even social safety nets and welfare programs differ from one nation to the next.

Somehow interpreting me saying they have safety nets or have armies as me saying they're homogenous is simply stupid.

Tribes aren't states. They're their own thing. It may look like they're states because states seem them as competitors but they're not states.

They're states, just not nation-states, tribal-states.
The royal families, councils, chains of command, etc should tell you that there is a government there.
Last edited by anasawad on 12 Sep 2019 03:30, edited 1 time in total.
#15033427
https://www.zakat.org/en/12-tips-imams- ... dy-part_1/

Establish a Zakat committee – How can Muslims pay their Zakat in their local communities to benefit the poor and needy if there is no structure to distribute their contribution to those who need it?

Establish a Zakat committee at your Masjid which will take care of collecting and distributing Zakat. This committee will keep a private list of the poor and needy who are eligible for Zakat in your community.

Don’t forget to be careful in distributing the Zakat. Make sure you are not giving only to those people you know personally who are in need, or even worse, only those people who are part of your ethnic group. Remember that there are those who are the poor and needy from all backgrounds and they have a right to Zakat money too. There are also those who don’t make their neediness and poverty obvious, so they need to be discreetly sought out and given Zakat money.

A note of caution: make sure the committee follows proper guidelines when approaching and distributing to those who are in need of Zakat funds


I know that zakat collections happen in reality at mosques.

It's not just internet disinformation posing as fact.
#15033432
Hindsite wrote:I suppose it is a cafe that has WiFi so customers can connect to the internet while they eat or have coffee.


??

No.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_caf%C3%A9#

It's a Shop, Convenience Store or Cafe that has its own set of public computers with pre-paid internet access. Or he could just be at a public library using the internet too.

Since your country has internet cafes all over too, I'll assume you must living in a basement somewhere, or haven't visited a major city in a long long long long time.
#15033440
colliric wrote:??

No.....

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_caf%C3%A9#

It's a Shop, Convenience Store or Cafe that has its own set of public computers with pre-paid internet access. Or he could just be at a public library using the internet too.

Since your country has internet cafes all over too, I'll assume you must living in a basement somewhere, or haven't visited a major city in a long long long long time.

The poor guy has to pay for for use of a public computer and internet access at an internet cafe? Where does he get the money?
#15033444
Hindsite wrote:The poor guy has to pay for for use of a public computer and internet access at an internet cafe? Where does he get the money?


?

It's a solitary buck for 10 mins in Australia most of the time, maybe $2 at max.

Plus he could be at a public library instead....
#15033539
Presvias wrote:You're not understanding his or my point, I think. You associate tribalism, wrongly, with poverty.


No I don't. I said that most Jordanians are in poverty and he claimed that most Jordanians aren't in actual poverty because they're tribal.

You've missed the point.

Well, what hard evidence do you base your assertions on?


My life and the London School of Economic's series on tribes in the Islamic world.

No I referred to 'Islamic charity & zakat' specifically & seperately to clarify my point.


Then that's something different. The whole "inviting people into your home" practice isn't specifically zakat.

If by institutionalised, you mean redistributed by the state, then you are ttechnically off the mark. According to the undp; jordanian zakat is both voluntary and there are several different organisations that offer such, not one big state agency; there are multi philanthropic ventures set up to disburse & collect zakat.


Institutionalized just means that institutions or organizations do it not regular people. Zakat is wealth redistribution.

Plus, zakat funds don't mean official funds per se, there could easily be tribal areas that are very much cut off from the state; where community self-sufficiency is the only option. I think he referred to this already. Therefore, almsgiving and zakat would only be available locally.


This is right but it's irrelevant to the practice of hospitality in Arab countries.

I've read books on Islam, lived with Sunni Muslims and read part of the qu'ran. I'm not ignorant if this subject.


You've confused one practice with another. I'm not saying your ignorant, just that you confused the two.

Where does your assertion come from that these Jordanian tribes 'have nothing' to give?


I didn't say that. I said that about Jordanian families and individuals.

If you're referring to Islamic countries, that's possible but by no means the norm. You're making rather large generalizations. Some poor families have an abundance of food but no access to healthcare, or an abundance of both but poor quality shelter, or any number of other things.


Depends on the family but generally people struggle in some way to fulfill their needs.

Perhaps. But you place too much weight in one ideology and you'll be disappointed 9 times out of 10. Most if not all ideologies are impracticable in reality, yet they probably could work if the world was just 1% different. The same is true for capitalism.


Anarchism isn't one ideology.

Most if not all ideologies just lead to some kind of dictatorship/tyranny and total monopoly; power corrupts. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss"


Unless you remove bosses altogether.

@anasawad

When will stop with this bullshit comparison.
Palestinians, in both Lebanon and Jordan, are foreign refugees, They're not Lebanese nor Jordanians. It's in the name, PALESTINIANS.


Yeah I know. I'm not saying they are blacks. I'm saying that, like blacks, they are more likely to be in poverty but they aren't the only people in poverty.

Look at the areas and origins.


You might be right about that.

And who are those individuals?


Private property isn't owned communally by the tribe it's owned by individuals who are a part of the tribe.

Somehow interpreting me saying they have safety nets or have armies as me saying they're homogenous is simply stupid.


I didn't interpret it like that, I said that the tribes are poor so the extent of the safety nets is completely different.

They're states, just not nation-states, tribal-states.
The royal families, councils, chains of command, etc should tell you that there is a government there.


They organize differently from states and are very similar to kinship networks.
#15033555
Palmyrene wrote:No I don't. I said that most Jordanians are in poverty and he claimed that most Jordanians aren't in actual poverty because they're tribal.

You've missed the point.


Ok let me be more specific.. your definitions of poverty are very narrow; and you're applying this universal one-definition where it's not applicable.

My life and the London School of Economic's series on tribes in the Islamic world.


Would you care to provide us with some proof for your assertions then? Citations?

Then that's something different. The whole "inviting people into your home" practice isn't specifically zakat.


But you're interpreting this in a very robotic way.
I said 'Islamic charity and zakat' not just zakat. Not 'having your hand tied to your neck' is intrinsic in their faith; You understand that charity begins at home, but also includes looking after the stranger. And that's just what it's like.

This is right but it's irrelevant to the practice of hospitality in Arab countries.


But you raised the point of what really constitutes zakat, I'm just clarifying it.

You've confused one practice with another. I'm not saying your ignorant, just that you confused the two.


I really haven't.
Did you read the subsequent post about local collections & distributions in mosques?

I didn't say that. I said that about Jordanian families and individuals.


Very well, what's that assertion based on?

Depends on the family but generally people struggle in some way to fulfill their needs.


That's a very general point.

Anarchism isn't one ideology.


Whichever strand of anarchism you abide by; it's applicable.

Unless you remove bosses altogether.


"mob rule"/"tyranny of the majority" are real possibilities too.

You're not really extrapolating on your points much, I know it's hard to reply on a phone, but one line replies to each point end up reducing debates to very generalised, undetailed back and forths; which answer neither side's questions, nor asks the right ones in the first place.
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