African-American Asphyxiated by Police in Minneapolis - Page 164 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#15107387
@wat0n

1. There is no conspiracy. It is all legal and open and accepted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_l ... ted_States

Unless you are arguing that financial incentives are a conspiracy, this is an odd criticism.

2. Are you sure they were firing at him, or do you assume that they were firing at him because it makes sense?

3. So we agree that intent does not absolve someone from crime. And they were being shot at because they broke into a home without announcing themselves. Do you know what happened next?
#15107394
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. There is no conspiracy. It is all legal and open and accepted. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penal_l ... ted_States

Unless you are arguing that financial incentives are a conspiracy, this is an odd criticism.


Please show that these incentives are directed specifically towards African American labor.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Are you sure they were firing at him, or do you assume that they were firing at him because it makes sense?


They were firing at the house the fire was coming from.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. So we agree that intent does not absolve someone from crime. And they were being shot at because they broke into a home without announcing themselves. Do you know what happened next?


I know the story. Not even her family is seeking criminal charges, but a wrongful death suit only (a civil matter). I doubt a criminal conviction would hold in this case.
#15107405
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, that is not the number you quoted for unarmed black men.

Yes I did, 3 times. You have reading comprehension problems, or you're doing it on purpose on bad faith. Here's exactly what I said in a reply to you. This is THE LAST TIME i'm posting it. This is the 4th time FFS. READ IT PROPERLY:

"Read the stats I posted again: 14 unarmed black men were shot dead by cops in 2019. Of those 14, 5 of them were not attacking cops at the time, and of those 5, 2 were killed by white cops."

Anyway, please provide evidence that 9 pf these people were attacking cops when they were shot.

I posted my data source as evidence, the WP did the work already. They're a left-leaning paper that starting tracking the stats after Michael Brown was shot (because he was attacking a cop BTW) i assume in order to keep police to account. There's even a black researcher on the article. It's up to you discredit their numbers.

Again, there is no way of knowing the number since the police do not keep track.

Provide evidence that they don't keep track.
#15107412
Pants-of-dog wrote:You did not present evidence. You just posted a single link.

Elijah McClain is one unarmed black man killed by white cops.

Nekiylo Dawayne Graves is another.

Dennis Wayne Tuttle was armed, but since cops broke into his home and started shooting without identifying themselves, it is hard to justify this one.

D'Ettrick Griffin is another.

So we have at least three unarmed black men killed by police, Your numbers say two.

Note that I am only looking at the first few weeks of 2019 with the exception of Elijah McClain.

"According to a release Monday from the National Nuclear Security Administration, Graves had a “cylindrical object in hand” when he was shot. No object or weapon was mentioned in the sheriff’s office’s Wednesday release. Sheriff’s office spokesman David Boruchowitz said in an email Wednesday evening that information about whether Graves had a weapon is “not being released right now.” After Graves got out of the car, he didn’t comply with the officers’ commands and “continued to advance on the officers,” Wehrly said.
https://pvtimes.com/news/nye-sheriff-wehrly-provides-update-on-fatal-shooting-at-nevada-security-site-66538/

So Graves allegedly had an object in his hand and continued to advance on the cop and wouldn't comply when told to stop advancing. If I did that I'd expect to be shot. So he doesn't count. I couldn't find out more about the case later on.

D'Ettrick Griffin was killed while he stole the unmarked car of an off-duty officer. The database only tracks cops who kill while in the line of duty.
#15107413


wat0n wrote:@skinster

I don't recall defending racism, although you have been quite busy doing so in the 198 page-long Syrian war thread.


You don't recall it? How weird. A number of people have pointed it out and it's ongoing. I guess you lack even a smidgen on self-awareness. Re: Syria, you finally got to the correct thread (the Syria war thread) to accuse me of racism and left very quickly, so yeah, colour me convinced at you regurgitating the same shit. :lol:
#15107426
@skinster right, people without arguments did, just like you are now (although no one has ever been able to provide any quotes on it). On the other hand you have been quite busy defending and denying the use of chemical weapons against Sunni civilians by the Syrian regime. Do you have anything else to add?
#15107434
SpecialOlympian wrote:https://twitter.com/ChrisMegerian/status/1283132535816560641

If you defend the Confederate flag you are a stupid piece of shit.

Me, thinking about the parts of the Antebellum South that don't involve slavery: I liked... the... steamboats???


I agree with you to the extent that a few people are defending the cause of rebellion to this day.

Now I say that, there are scum who are defending new rebellions and seditions against the United States right now in the present day, and they are also definitely ''stupid piece of shit'' people as well.
#15107436
@wat0n

1. No, thank you. Racist intent is irrelevant. It is a fact that the prison system has incarcerated a significantly higher percentage of the population since the passing of the Civil Rights Act. This is true regardless of racist intent. It is a fact that this incarceration has disproportionately affected black people. This is also true regardless of racist intent. It is a fact that through the private system, prisons have a a financial incentive to use prisoners as forced labor. This also true regardless of racist intent. So even if there is no racist intent, there are still more black people in forced labour today than there were slaves in the antebellum South.

2. Exactly, they were firing into the house instead if aiming at anyone. They had absolutely no regard for the safety of the innocent occupants inside.

3. Perhaps we could skip to the part that justifies the killing of Ms. Breonna Taylor.

————————-

Unthinking Majority wrote:...
"Read the stats I posted again: 14 unarmed black men were shot dead by cops in 2019. Of those 14, 5 of them were not attacking cops at the time, and of those 5, 2 were killed by white cops."


There were 13 men shot. Not 14. There were 14 unarmed black people.

I posted my data source as evidence, the WP did the work already. They're a left-leaning paper that starting tracking the stats after Michael Brown was shot (because he was attacking a cop BTW) i assume in order to keep police to account. There's even a black researcher on the article. It's up to you discredit their numbers.


Again, I cannot access the WP databse. Please present the evidence that 9 of these unarmed people were attacking the police.

Provide evidence that they don't keep track.


    Spotlight on a blind spot
    In December 2014, spurred by unrest in the wake of Ferguson, then-US president, Barack Obama, created a task force to investigate policing practices. The group issued a report five months later, highlighting a need for “expanded research and data collection” (see go.nature.com/2kqoddk). The data historically collected by the federal government on fatal shootings were sorely lacking. Almost two years later, the US Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) responded with a pilot project to create an online national database of fatal and non-fatal use of force by law-enforcement officers. The FBI director at the time, James Comey, called the lack of comprehensive national data “unacceptable” and “embarrassing”.

    Full data collection started this year.
    But outsiders had already begun to gather the data in the interests of informing the public. The database considered to be the most complete is maintained by The Washington Post. In 2015, the newspaper began collecting information on fatal shootings from local news reports, public records and social media. Its records indicate that police officers shoot and kill around 1,000 civilians each year — about twice the number previously counted by the FBI.

    Recognizing that ‘lethal force’ does not always involve a gun and doesn’t always result in death, two other media organizations expanded on this approach. In 2015 and 2016, UK newspaper The Guardian combined its original reporting with crowdsourced information to record all fatal encounters with the police in the United States, and found around 1,100 civilian deaths per year. Online news site VICE News obtained data on both fatal and non-fatal shootings from the country’s 50 largest local police departments, finding that for every person shot and killed between 2010 and 2016, officers shot at two more people who survived. Extrapolating from that, the actual number of civilians shot by the police each year is likely to be upwards of 3,000.

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-02601-9

So we see that prior to this year, there was no systematic data collection of police killings and/or shootings.

Unthinking Majority wrote:
"According to a release Monday from the National Nuclear Security Administration, Graves had a “cylindrical object in hand” when he was shot. No object or weapon was mentioned in the sheriff’s office’s Wednesday release. Sheriff’s office spokesman David Boruchowitz said in an email Wednesday evening that information about whether Graves had a weapon is “not being released right now.” After Graves got out of the car, he didn’t comply with the officers’ commands and “continued to advance on the officers,” Wehrly said.
https://pvtimes.com/news/nye-sheriff-wehrly-provides-update-on-fatal-shooting-at-nevada-security-site-66538/

So Graves allegedly had an object in his hand and continued to advance on the cop and wouldn't comply when told to stop advancing. If I did that I'd expect to be shot. So he doesn't count. I couldn't find out more about the case later on.


So you have no idea if Mr. Graves had a weapon. I guess you are defining “unarmed” as “visibly and obviously not having anything at all in their hands or reaching for anything at all at any time during the process, even if the object may or may not be a weapon”.

He probably had a can of some beverage in his hand.

Is Elijah McClain considered to be “armed” because he supposedly reached for a gun, or does he count as one of the nine who “attacked” the police? Or is he one of the two who were shot by white police while neither armed nor attacking?

I assume that Atatiana Jefferson is one of the two unarmed people who was not attacking when shot to death by a white cop.

D'Ettrick Griffin was killed while he stole the unmarked car of an off-duty officer. The database only tracks cops who kill while in the line of duty.


So the numbers you provided are inaccurate.
#15107438
annatar1914 wrote:I agree with you to the extent that a few people are defending the cause of rebellion to this day.

Now I say that, there are scum who are defending new rebellions and seditions against the United States right now in the present day, and they are also definitely ''stupid piece of shit'' people as well.


Image
#15107441
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. No, thank you. Racist intent is irrelevant. It is a fact that the prison system has incarcerated a significantly higher percentage of the population since the passing of the Civil Rights Act. This is true regardless of racist intent. It is a fact that this incarceration has disproportionately affected black people. This is also true regardless of racist intent. It is a fact that through the private system, prisons have a a financial incentive to use prisoners as forced labor. This also true regardless of racist intent. So even if there is no racist intent, there are still more black people in forced labour today than there were slaves in the antebellum South.


Weak argument, and that's because the US population is a lot larger than it used to be in 1860. Also, claiming disparate treatment does require intent.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Exactly, they were firing into the house instead if aiming at anyone. They had absolutely no regard for the safety of the innocent occupants inside.


And that's because they were answering to gunfire. It's not like they had any way to check if there were any other unarmed civilians inside without risking their own lives while being under fire.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. Perhaps we could skip to the part that justifies the killing of Ms. Breonna Taylor.


You tried to claim there was criminal liability in this incident, but not even the Taylor family's lawyer agrees.
#15107445
SpecialOlympian wrote:Image


Lol...

I was pleased someone vandalized and tore down the statue of Confederate General Albert Pike;

https://www.foxnews.com/us/dc-protester ... lbert-pike

He was a real piece of shit. Headed up Scottish Rite Freemasonry and was a Luciferian, was one of the founding members of the pre-civil war Slaver secret society the ''Knights of the Golden Circle'', and of course, a confederate general. After the war he did just fine... How come many Right Winger pro-confederates don't like to mention him?

But don't forget that there were many Southern Union men, thousands fought in the Union Army, and many of them didn't get statues anywhere.
#15107446
@wat0n

1. No, the chart showing increasing incarceration is looking at number of prisomers per 100 000 residents. Absolute population increase has no effect.

2. Yes, the police created a situation where they were being shot at by innocents and there only possible option was to kill anyone in the area regardless of guilt.

3. So, how are they justified in the killing of Breonna Taylor and her boyfriend?
#15107449
Pants-of-dog wrote:@wat0n

1. No, the chart showing increasing incarceration is looking at number of prisomers per 100 000 residents. Absolute population increase has no effect.


You were comparing raw numbers when making comparisons with slavery in the antebellum South. The incarceration rate has already peaked according to your own graph.

Pants-of-dog wrote:2. Yes, the police created a situation where they were being shot at by innocents and there only possible option was to kill anyone in the area regardless of guilt.


They did have a permit for a no warrant arrest, perhaps because they believed the suspects would flee. In the end it seems their intelligence was wrong or at least outdated.

Pants-of-dog wrote:3. So, how are they justified in the killing of Breonna Taylor and her boyfriend?


Her boyfriend didn't die as far as I'm aware.

The killing was the result of an unfortunate situation, namely, she died in the crossfire between the cops and her boyfriend's gunfire. This at worst may lead to the wrongful death award (hence why her family is suing over this), and even then it would be the result of the poor intelligence they had. In that sense a wrongful death suit may as well hold.

@skinster weird, I thought you are the one who is in the "believe the victims" team, at least when they are not Jewish. But even in this case, the victims are not seeking criminal charges.
#15107453
@wat0n

1. That was just a related fact, but it is not my argument. Since you have no rebuttal of my argument, I will move on.

2. Yes, their own intelligence that they collected was wrong, and led to a situation where they were shooting blindly into a house of innocent people. The list of mistakes they made was very long.

3. Again, there was no crossfire. So that does not justify her death. The poor intelligence was their fault, and is compounded by the fact that they had arrested the actual suspect somewhere else that night. So that does not justify her death. What justifies her death?
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