[Impulse]

THE Gaza Strip has been turned into a "concentration camp" by two weeks of Israeli bombardments, said a senior Vatican official.

Cardinal Renato Martino, the Vatican's justice and peace minister, was quoted by the online Italian daily Il Sussidiario.

"Let's look at the conditions in Gaza: these increasingly resemble a big concentration camp," said Cardinal Martino.

Cardinal Martino said it was in neither parties interest to carry on fighting and urged both to show more willingness to hold peace talks.

"If they can't come to an agreement, then someone else should do it (for them). The world cannot sit back and watch without doing anything.

"We Christians are not the only ones to call this land 'holy', Jews and Muslims do so too. The fact that this land is the scene of bloodshed seems a great tragedy," he added.

Israel's offensive on Gaza has killed almost 700 Palestinians, including 220 children, and injured 3000 since December 27, according to Gaza medics.

Aid agencies have declared a total humanitarian crisis in Gaza, owing to the ailing stocks of basic food, water and medical supplies.

In response Israel said the comments were "based on Hamas propaganda".

"Making remarks that seem to be based on Hamas propaganda while ignoring its numerous crimes ... does not bring the people closer to truth and peace," foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor told AFP.

http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Vatican_G ... _0107.html

[Vera Politica]

This is an interesting move, considering Catholics often side with Israel unquestionably.
I read about this last week on BBC news. I don't think, however, that it is as significant as it may seem. Unless the pope himself would utter such words, the story will continue to be buried and not even heard by Catholics across the world.

Shit Israel, when the Vatican is coming against you, I think you need to reevaluate what you're doing or, at the very least, evaluate your propaganda campaign. It may be premature to say this, but I think that Israel has lost the propaganda war, which is a considerable proposition if you ask me.

[redcarpet]

Making remarks that seem to be based on Hamas propaganda

'Seem' to whom? Who cares, what matters is what the facts are. Doesn't matter who utters them.

Gazans have been suffering eversince Israel initiated by the blockade. We're not talking about sanctions against the Hamas govt; there never was a Hamas ambassador to expell in the first place. When you refuse to allow trade, countries suffer. And when your forces open fire on UN buildings and vhiecles your country is discredited. Derr

[Verv]

Yeah, because they are all fenced off and performing menial, physical labor details for the Israelis until they are unfit to perform them and then executed?

This is one definite reason why I am not a Catholic.

[W01f]

Yeah, because they are all fenced off and performing menial, physical labor details for the Israelis until they are unfit to perform them and then executed?

Do you even know what a concentration camp is?

concentration camp
n.

1. A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions.


The Oxford English Dictionary, 2nd ed. defines concentration camp as: a camp where non-combatants of a district are accommodated, such as those instituted by Lord Kitchener during the South African war of 1899-1902; one for the internment of political prisoners, foreign nationals, etc., esp. as organized by the Nazi regime in Germany before and during the war of 1939-45.

[pikachu]

Gaza is not a camp, not an institution administered by Israel for the situation to be comparable, it is a territory where Palestinians naturally live. If one really wanted to draw parallels, I suppose it would be more comparable to a ghetto, like the Warsaw ghetto et al, still a very sketchy comparison though. And then again, the Palestinians aren't exactly making efforts to improve their situation, unless they think wars like these actually help them in some way. Maybe that what's really happening here, the Palestinians are hoping to win the world public opinion to their side and thus force Israel into more concessions that way?

[Stipe]

It's not as out of character as it seems. Maybe American Catholics tend to broadly support Israel, but that's more a symptom of being American than Catholic, I think. This is far from the first time that the Vatican has been openly critical of Israeli policies towards the Palestinians. The particular language used here is what makes this one stand out though.

[Sapper]

Yeah, because they are all fenced off and performing menial, physical labor details for the Israelis until they are unfit to perform them and then executed?

Obviously not.

I only have a common knowledge of what the Warsaw Ghetto was -- Jews stuck in a terrible place, unable to move away by state authority, massive humanitarian and employment problems not correctable, lack of basic institutions such as schools or hospitals due to the authorities directly or indirectly. This is what Gaza has been like for a while. It is now being bombed as well.

The only difference of conditions there, based on my admittingly weak knowledge, is that Jews were put in the Ghetto rather than just being stuck there, as is the case. It is a slightly mitigating fact for Israel... but not very, IMO.

This might be justified by Israel-supporters because there were rockets being fired from the territory. However, this would lend the Nazis justification for the Warsaw Ghetto because of the existence of anti-Nazi resistance. I do not think I want to lend the Nazis this justification, and I presume many Israel supporters will agree with me.

That Israel is of course not Nazi Germany is irrelevant to this comparison because we are concerned with "Is collective punishment OK if a state is being attacked?" These are both instances of a state being attacked, and of collective punishment. It is therefore a valid comparison, and appropriate to set all other things aside.

Nonetheless, it is clear Gaza has been collectively punished in a terrible manner, whether one thinks it is justified or not. It really isn't necessary to call it a concentration camp or make Nazi comparisons -- it is an imposed-ghetto.

[QatzelOk]

Gaza is not a camp, not an institution administered by Israel for the situation to be comparable, it is a territory where Palestinians naturally live.

So it's more of a zoo than a camp, where Palestinians "naturally" live in a territory confined by walls and defined by ethnicity?

And the bombings from Israel mean that it's independent of Israel?

[Maas]

Gaza is not a camp, not an institution administered by Israel for the situation to be comparable

like warsaw used to be an institution for Jews where they naturally lived....
until the communists got hold of it

[pikachu]

like warsaw used to be an institution for Jews where they naturally lived....
until the communists got hold of it

lulz what? Jews didn't live in the ghetto naturally because they had practically no self-government and they were isolated from the rest of Warsaw, which, according to some of our more hardline judophobic members, is equivalent to what Israel does to the Palestine.

[Thompson_NCL]

If living in wretched and impoverished conditions is comparable to a concentration camp, someone really ought to do something about Liverpool. It's absolutley absurd to compare Gaza to a concentration camp and totally irresponsible on the part of the Vatican.

[Sapper]

Nonetheless, it is clear Gaza has been collectively punished in a terrible manner, whether one thinks it is justified or not. It really isn't necessary to call it a concentration camp or make Nazi comparisons -- it is an imposed-ghetto.

[Vera Politica]

The sad thing is here, conservatives tend to think that when the word 'concentration camp' is used it likens to the good ol' days of Nazi Germany certainly not the case (and what Wo1f said).... I always thought it was a place for kids with A.D.D

[Maas]

lulz what? Jews didn't live in the ghetto naturally because they had practically no self-government and they were isolated from the rest of Warsaw, which, according to some of our more hardline judophobic members, is equivalent to what Israel does to the Palestine.

You don't even have to be hardline judophobic. If somebody like the pope sais it's like a concentrationcamp... on camera. He'll be just like a "hardline judophobic" when online incognito on a forum just like this one.

The sad thing is here, conservatives tend to think that when the word 'concentration camp' is used it likens to the good ol' days of Nazi Germany certainly not the case (and what Wo1f said).... I always thought it was a place for kids with A.D.D

indeed. You had concetration like camps for POW's who lived to tell the tale kind of okay....
yet they never had good memories about them days, due to nasty maltreatment.

[pikachu]

You don't even have to be hardline judophobic. If somebody like the pope sais it's like a concentrationcamp... on camera.

The Papacy doesn't exactly have a history of good relations with the Jewish peoples, but anyway, his statement is just empty rhetoric. It's like when western media insists on mentioning Putin in the same sentence as Stalin, or linking Ahmadinejad to Hitler. No one with brains actually believes any of it, it's just a mud-slinging campaign in attempt do discredit one side or another for some dubious political purposes.

[Maas]

The Papacy doesn't exactly have a history of good relations with the Jewish peoples

funny how Catholics think there is some kind of bond with the Jews.

No one with brains actually believes any of it, it's just a mud-slinging campaign in attempt do discredit one side or another for some dubious political purposes.

as for Palestinians being in some kind of ghetto in a warsaw WWII kind of setting....
I honestly don't think the comparison can be made. Oh yeah shure, it isn't a perfect match.
But there are a lot of simularities. I think a lot of pro-zionist don't even want to discuss them,
eventhough they are rather obvious.

[Nets]

funny how Catholics think there is some kind of bond with the Jews.

News to me.

[Sapper]

Maas, explain to me what was wrong with the Warsaw Ghetto.

[QatzelOk]

funny how Catholics think there is some kind of bond with the Jews.

I also know of no such bond.

Protestants, on the other hand, tend to believe in the same kind of relationship with other people; competition for material symbols of success. Catholics typically think there is something more important than gold.