[Freedom]

At least seven Iraqi police recruits where killed and many others injured by faceless insurgents.

Never mind kicking out the occupiers, they're killing Iraqis now WOOHOO.

Vive la resistance...and so forth

[Yeddi]

did you ever think the murderers could be US/UK/AUs/polish special forces or something?

[Boondock Saint]

Yes, it only makes sense that US special forces kill Iraqi police men ...

Anyway, there is no shock that there is a criminal element that is rampant in Iraq right now. Any nation in Iraqs situation would have its streets flooded with criminals and bad people. At the same time there are honest citezens angered by their current situation and they are not afraid to act out.

I doubt the police were killed by anyone other then criminals ... its most unfortunate.

Perhaps if the US spent half the money rebuilding Iraq as it did destroying it then we wouldnt see so much violence.

[Freedom]

did you ever think the murderers could be US/UK/AUs/polish special forces or something?

No no no it was some warmongering oil tycoon who was going to build an oil drill right where the police officers where standing so he RPG'd them...

I would believe that except all the evidence points the other way...

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Hmm...the iraqi police today...consists of the SAME people who were the Iraqi police 6 months ago.

Back then they were murderers and Baathist party thugs who hanged people from treeps and oppressed the Iraqi people...

...now they are our beloved innocent virgen angels with wings friends...

F ucking hypocrite...


You cooperate with the American occupation forces...you will die!!!

Vive la Resistance!

[Freedom]

Well thats how they rebuilt Germany...it would be impossible to create a new state in Iraq without involving some lower member Baath party members in the time people have given the Coalition, the Americans cant leave until they install at least a transitional government with a security force, they cant train up tens of thousands of new policemen from scratch in the 6 months or so some factions in Iraq have given them.
What do you want the Americans to do slaughter them? Kill all 400,000 Iraqi armymen? Slaughter all the police men? come on man be realistic. This is only able to be done in Kurdistan since they have been semi autonomous for the last decade or so.

But how do you know these guys where baathists? They couldve been newly trained. I duuno but i think if the "guerrillas" start killing Iraqis then they will lose a lot of support.


If the Iraqi people dont cooperate with the Americans well...just look at Somalia.

You dont want occupiers, you dont want Baathist your the hypocrite

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Thats right...I don't want the Americans...I don't want the Baathist...I want the Iraqi PEOPLE...to run the country...

Is this a foreing concept to you...letteing the people decide for themselves...but you don't even do that in AMerica...so of course you won't do that in Iraq.

You know...and I know...that if the Iraqi people decided on their own...90% of them would chose an Iranian-style government...an Islamic democracy...and frankly...I would support them 100% in that choice.


You can't allow that...the Baathists can't allow that. Just like they killed and oppressed the Iraqi people to keep them from having their choice...so do you.


There can be no possibility of "democracy"...no possibility of a "transitional governemnt" in Iraq...as ong as YOU are there...as long as your puppet Chalabi regime or whoever you place there stays.


Look at Afghanistan...a complete failure. The government is a weak puppet with no power at all...the country is in the hands of various warlords...some payed off by the US...others paied off by Pakistan or Russia or India or whoever. Its a powder keg waiting to explode under you...and the US knows this very well...thats why it only has about 15.000 soldiers who don't venture out of their bases...becsaue they know what happens to them if they do.


Killing the Iraqis that cooperate with the US...will not decrease the resistance. The iraqi people do not have any love for Iraqis that cooperate with the US. Those who cooperate with the US...are in 90% of cases exile Iraqis...brought there by the US.


All the Islamic clergy in Iraq is calling for attacks on the US.

You have gotten yourself into a VERY BAD situation...and it will only get worse.

We worned you...don't get into Iraq...let the Iraqi people solve their problems themselves. You think they wouldn't have done this by themselves?? Saddam has had assasination attempts on him on a regular bases...even his own military was turning against him (in a recent case...an Iraqi MiG-23 was send to bomb the palace Saddam was stayingin..but was shot down by Saddam's guards). A couple of years ago
..Iran launched several duzen Scud missiles against the Iraqi positions on its borders.

The US knew very well Saddam's reign was almost over...and the Iraqi people would rise and overthrow him...The only problem was...if that happened...an Iranian-type government would take hold in Iraq.

To prevent this...the US attacked first and removed Saddam itself.

And now...you will pay for it...


This is an occupation...of a people who do not want you there under any circumstance...and they will resist you for as long as is necessary. Did you learn nothing from the Iranian revolution...the 8 year war you had against those people...the 10 year sanctions and bombings you had on Iraq??? Apparently nothing...

And do you think the Iraqi people are stupid??? You think they don't know WHO supported Saddam back in the 80s?? You think they don't know of the help the US gave to Saddam??? I think an Iraqi man said it best...when asked where he thought Saddam was:

"Saddam? I think he is with the CIA or CNN...whatever you call it"


How right he was...


Rummy, Cheney, Bush...the Regan Bunch...the people who supplied Saddam with weapons to kill Iranians and Iraqis...are now in Iraqi to bring "democracy". ANd you think the Iraqi people are stupid??? WHat democracy is that?? Bringing a bastard Chalabi to iraq...a thug and agent of the US...handpicking him to run the coutnry...alongside a US general
and the US military...and THAT you call democracy??


This is better than a Greek tragedy...

I wonder...20 years from now...if the US will again attack Iraq becasue evil dictator Chalabi is building WMD...and you think the Iraqi people will again forget???

[Freedom]

but you don't even do that in AMerica

I dont live in America

90% of them would chose an Iranian-style government

90% are you mad? Forgetting the fact that a larger proportion than 10%isnt Islamic. Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims are two different types of religions with different beliefs which wont work in a Theocracy.
Even saying that 60% of the Shia population are sheep to the Clerics call is a little prejudice.
Iran is a fuck up, Iran has become nothing more then a dictatorship.

so do you

I didnt do anything, i'm not even there.

All the Islamic clergy in Iraq is calling for attacks on the US.

Dont be silly one of the most Famous Ayatollah wants to give the Americans a little more time.

the 8 year war you had against those people

Again i didnt do anything and again i dont live in America if that is what you are talking about.

ANd you think the Iraqi people are stupid???

Well apparently you think they are all sheep to the call of the Clerics.

Actually i think the Iraqi people know that every Western country with a little power sold weapons to Iraq. France, Germany, America, Britan whichever...even Chirac sold Iraq a nuclear facility. Saying it is only America is ignoring the Facts, Saddam was the worlds puppet dictator.

Chalabi

The Americans have been holding talks with many factions in Iraq...SCIRI and the Kurdish groups come to mind.

Look at Afghanistan...a complete failure

Well not really, considering the 10 years the Russians stayed their and the fact that Afganistan was one of the poorest countries in world anyway. Afganistan was always run by "Warlords" and has been in a constant state of war for 25 years or their abouts. Considering the history, the infastructure and the nightmare of the Taliban rule things are going reasonably well.

Just because their have been assination attempts at Saddam doesnt mean those who tried it would've been any better. At least like this the international community can help shape a country based on inclusiveness and freedom rather than oppression religious or military.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

I dont live in America

Oh...I knew it...you are French. Isn't that what they call the French now???...Freedom (freedom fries...freedom toast)

Sunni Muslims and Shia Muslims are two different types of religions with different beliefs

They are virtually identical...and they do work in Iran...which also has a large Suni population.

Dont be silly one of the most Famous Ayatollah wants to give the Americans a little more time.

If he's so famous...what's his name?? The clergy throughout Iraq..have indeed called for resistance against the US.

Actually i think the Iraqi people know that every Western country with a little power sold weapons to Iraq. France, Germany, America, Britan whichever...even Chirac sold Iraq a nuclear facility. Saying it is only America is ignoring the Facts, Saddam was the worlds puppet dictator.

True..but the French and the Germans aren't there...the American and British are...so they get the blame of the population.

Considering the history, the infastructure and the nightmare of the Taliban rule things are going reasonably well.

Things are actually no different at all...the only good thing is that the farmers can now grow more poppy for cocaine...Same warlords are still there...still fighting...now its just that another warlord...the US...has been added.

Just because their have been assination attempts at Saddam doesnt mean those who tried it would've been any better

And it doesn't mean that now it is any better...or that America will do it any better.

Who is to say what is "better" for the Iraqi people??? How about the Iraqi people??? What a wild idea...

At least like this the international community can help shape a country based on inclusiveness and freedom rather than oppression religious or military

Hehe...what international community??? The USMC??

Inclusivness and freedom??? And who will do this??? The US put in charge of cities and ministries...the exact same people who were in those positions during Saddam's rule. The man who led the crushing of the Shi'ite uprisings...is now mayor of a city.

US isn't interested in freedom...US is interested in control. If US gives freedom to the Iraqi people...they will kick it out of Iraq and join Iran's revolution.

Inclusivness...that at least they brought...becasue US bullets do not discrimate between Sunni or Shi'ite....

[Gothmog]

Well thats how they rebuilt Germany...it would be impossible to create a new state in Iraq without involving some lower member Baath party members in the time people have given the Coalition, the Americans cant leave until they install at least a transitional government with a security force, they cant train up tens of thousands of new policemen from scratch in the 6 months or so some factions in Iraq have given them.

-Well, that´s a big trouble. US forces must use Baahtists to run the state. However, those guys are not very popular.....this actually may give more legitimacy to resistance. I think Iraqis who are cooperating with US troops are a legitimate target. And they WILL be targeted, since they are easier to kill than the "armored" US soldiers.

But how do you know these guys where baathists? They couldve been newly trained. I duuno but i think if the "guerrillas" start killing Iraqis then they will lose a lot of support.

-They can win a lot of support by murdering colaborationists.....

If the Iraqi people dont cooperate with the Americans well...just look at Somalia.

-Hmmmm....Iraq has oil. It won´t become another Somalia....but what will happen if the Iraqis cooperate with US?

[Gothmog]

Dont be silly one of the most Famous Ayatollah wants to give the Americans a little more time.

-But it seems the USA want more time than the Iraqi people is willing to give.....

Well apparently you think they are all sheep to the call of the Clerics.

-In the vaccum power that followed Sadam´s fall, the clerics will surely gain some power. Against, the USA is feeding the beast, just like they did in Afghanistan.

Well not really, considering the 10 years the Russians stayed their and the fact that Afganistan was one of the poorest countries in world anyway. Afganistan was always run by "Warlords" and has been in a constant state of war for 25 years or their abouts. Considering the history, the infastructure and the nightmare of the Taliban rule things are going reasonably well.

-I beg to disagree with you. The US puppet regimen has no authority beyond Kabul, drug trade is soaring and Taliban is rebuilding its forces. Thinks are just goign well for heroin traders

Just because their have been assination attempts at Saddam doesnt mean those who tried it would've been any better. At least like this the international community can help shape a country based on inclusiveness and freedom rather than oppression religious or military.

-I think you shouldn´t have illusions on humanitarian imperialism. Even if the USA was sincere in his intent to liberate Iraq, they would be faced with erious troubles (ethnic rivalries, crime, armed resistance and so on) who would make that task impossible. Nation building simply don´t exist.

[Khenlein]

We executed Operation: Iraqi Freedom primarily to remove a threat to U.S Security and rid Iraq and the world from the Hussein Family regime.


Any other theories on our intent in the military action is pure speculation. Not the sort where you'll find gold either.

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

With the only problem of course being...that Iraq was NOT a threat to US security...

So logic dictates...that if the reason for going after Iraq was because it was a threat...but in fact it was not a threat in any imaginable way....than that cannot be the real reason.

[CasX]

What TS? Didn't you know that the Coalition had specific information and pictures showing WMD that could be launched within 45 minutes?
Yeah Right.

We executed Operation: Iraqi Freedom primarily to remove a threat to U.S Security and rid Iraq and the world from the Hussein Family regime.

Any other theories on our intent in the military action is pure speculation. Not the sort where you'll find gold either.

Actually, it's all speculation in my opinion. Did the US really invade Iraq to get rid of Hussein? We can only speculate.

[Khenlein]

No speculation is necessary, the President has stated very clearly on many occasions our intentions, to remove Hussein and thereby remove the threat.

To pretend to know why a man made a decisision, when he has stated it himself,,

thats jut theories over speculations over guesses thrown in with some paranoia.

Edit: Ill start a thread later with the question I edited out,, its a whole nother topic

[Tovarish Spetsnaz]

Oh well...el presidente stated it. How can we question in than???

So if the aim was to remove Saddam...and Saddam has been removed...why don't you leave now?? The Iraqi people can take care of themselves...no need for you to "rebuild" their country. Go now...you are not needed...

El Presidente's stated goal has been achieved....now leave

[Proctor]

Yeah, but that would be just as bad for America's image as staying on, because then everyone will cry "Look at the mess you left in Iraq in!", instead of "Get the fuck out of Iraq!" They just can't win.

[CasX]

They would win in my books if they said "We've destroyed the major infrastructure in Iraq, but we don't seem to b so good at rebuilding it. This is where the UN comes in, and we give sole power of rebuilding Iraq, and directing rebuilding contracts...to the UN. We will contribute monetarily to this reconstruction, seeing as how we destroyed the place anyway".

It's not perfect, but it's a lot better than the yanks running the show.

[Boondock Saint]

Damn it ... CasX makes all the points I would have made ...

I am not ashamed ... I am an American, we here in teh US are really good at blowing shit up and destroying everything and anything ... but when it comes to fixing shit ... feck that ... we would jsut rather knock more shit down.

Bring in the UN ... btw in case anyone doesnt know, the US populace also wants the UN to take over now ... just in case no one knew that.

[Khenlein]

We couldn't possibly leave Iraq in the state its in, thats not really debatable.


I have absolutely no issue with bringing in the U.N as a partner, or even to have it soley take over the process of rebuilding the infrastructure and implentating a vibrant democracy in Iraq.

I did and do disagree with the policy put forth by the State Department that because we did the "dirty work", we are entitled to the benefits or "spoils of war". I don't see it like that, I feel that rebuilding Iraq is a burden and not a priviledge.

I wonder, if the violent segments left of the Iraqi population would hesitate to fire on a western soldier if his helmet was U.N blue as opposed to desert Khaki?