[ArtAllm]

So besides ignoring contemporary scientific evidence, trusting 19th century pseudo-science and being a conspiracy theorist, ArtAllm is a liar too. Cool!

The most stupid conspiracy theory is "Anti-Semitism".

Many fools still believe in this "Anti-Semitic-Conspiracy".

[Kaiserschmarrn]

And what is your opinion?

Do "them Muslims" control our media, our banking system and our politicians

I find no evidence that the media, banking or politics are dominated, let alone controlled, by either Muslims or Jews. If anything, the people in charge in the major German political parties, media outlets and large banks are mostly Christian, at least notionally.

Regarding the circumcision case, it was rather obvious that Germany would pass a law making an exception for circumcision based on religious freedom even without the lobbying of any particular group. People who got their hopes up and are so distraught now need a reality check.

Personally, I hope this practice will become less and less common since it is an unnecessary medical procedure and the health benefits for somebody living in the developed world are insignificant. However, calling it mutilation and getting so worked up about it, strikes me as out of proportion.

[QatzelOk]

A lot of the negative/positive judgments regarding the sexual damage done by circumcision neglects to include personal observation.

As a gay man who's had sex with many men who were uncut and many who were cut, I can honestly testify that the uncut - those who still have their full penis foreskin - enjoy sex a lot more than men who have had it snipped off.

There's no comparison. The cut penis has been damaged and is less sensitive. I suppose Jewish women like this about their men: it takes them longer to come to an orgasm.

I find no evidence that the media, banking or politics are dominated, let alone controlled, by either Muslims or Jews. If anything, the people in charge in the major German political parties, media outlets and large banks are mostly Christian, at least notionally.

And this is true because...

[ArtAllm]

I find no evidence that the media, banking or politics are dominated, let alone controlled, by either Muslims or Jews.

How old are you?

Do you believe that prominent professors, like Norman Finkelstein, Israel Shahak, John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt and Kevin Macdonald, to mention only a few, who published well footnoted works, proving that American and all western Media and the political process are controlled by the Israel Lobby, made any mistakes?

I think that they are right, because somebody has to be blind when he finds no evidence for the dominance of the Israel Lobby.

Even the fact that Germany had to pass a law that contradicts the German constitution in order to please the Jews is one more prove that the Israel Lobby controls the political process in Germany.

If anything, the people in charge in the major German political parties, media outlets and large banks are mostly Christian...

These "Christians" genuflect before the Israel Lobby. They are pre-selected by this lobby, and they know that this lobby can ruin their career.

Regarding the circumcision case, it was rather obvious that Germany would pass a law making an exception for circumcision based on religious freedom....

No, it was not obvious. They would have never passed a law making an exception of female genital mutilation, which is also a religious traditions, but not a JEWISH religious tradition. And they will never pass a law making an exception for forced marriages and other "religious traditions" that violate the human rights of children, but are not part of the Jewish tradition any more.

German politicians genuflected, because Jews played the Holocaust card.

Personally, I hope this practice will become less and less common since it is an unnecessary medical procedure and the health benefits for somebody living in the developed world are insignificant.

No, it will now become more and more common, because it was legalised, and religious traditions have nothing to do with health benefits.

All kinds of religious fundamentalism are on the rise because of the spineless politicians who are afraid to call a spade a spade.

Jewish religious fundamentalism and extremism becomes mainstream in Israel, and in will become mainstream in any western country, because of the Holocaust Industry.

[wat0n]

Do you believe that prominent professors, like Norman Finkelstein, John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt and Kevin Macdonald, to mention only a few, who published well footnoted works, proving that American and all western Media and the political process are controlled by the Israel Lobby, made any mistakes?

I think that they are right, because somebody has to be blind when he finds no evidence for the dominance of the Israel Lobby.

Even the fact that Germany had to pass a law that contradicts the German constitution in order to please the Jews is one more prove that the Israel Lobby controls the political process in Germany.

Walt and Mearsheimer don't say the Israel Lobby controls the United States' political process. What they do say is that they are great at lobbying, but they don't believe in the kind of conspiracy bullshit you believe in:

Sources of Power

The United States has a divided government that offers many ways to influence the policy process. As a result, interest groups can shape policy in many different ways—by lobbying elected representatives and members of the executive branch, making campaign contributions, voting in elections, molding public opinion, etc.

Furthermore, special interest groups enjoy disproportionate power when they are committed to a particular issue and the bulk of the population is indifferent. Policymakers will tend to accommodate those who care about the issue in question, even if their numbers are small, confident that the rest of the population will not penalize them.

The Israel Lobby’s power flows from its unmatched ability to play this game of interest group politics. In its basic operations, it is no different from interest groups like the Farm Lobby, steel and textile workers, and other ethnic lobbies. What sets the Israel Lobby apart is its extraordinary effectiveness. But there is nothing improper about American Jews and their Christian allies attempting to sway U.S. policy towards Israel. The Lobby’s activities are not the sort of conspiracy depicted in anti‐Semitic tracts like the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. For the most part, the individuals and groups that comprise the Lobby are doing what other special interest groups do, just much better. Moreover, pro‐Arab interest groups are weak to non‐existent, which makes the Lobby’s task even easier.68

Of course, it shouldn't be surprising at all to see a liar like you doing what you do best, that is, to lie - because that's what your ridiculous arguments in this thread have fallen to, once it has become evident that scientific evidence on circumcision doesn't support your arguments and that reality doesn't support your conspiracy theories either

[ArtAllm]

Walt and Mearsheimer don't say the Israel Lobby controls the United States' political process. What they do say is that they are great at lobbying, but they don't believe in the kind of conspiracy bullshit you believe in:
....

Of course, it shouldn't be surprising at all to see a liar like you doing what you do best, that is, to lie - because that's what your ridiculous arguments in this thread have fallen to, once it has become evident that scientific evidence on circumcision doesn't support your arguments and that reality doesn't support your conspiracy theories either

Wow!



Have you read their work?

It is great that you think that they a good and diligent scientist.


Most Zionists, who have read the work, believe these professors are "Anti-Semites" that believe in the "myth" about the "Jewish Control" of the USA.
Here are some examples:

Yes, It's Anti-Semitic
...
Mearsheimer and Walt conceive of The Lobby as a conspiracy between the Washington Times and the New York Times, the Democratic-leaning Brookings Institution and Republican-leaning American Enterprise Institute, architects of the Oslo accords and their most vigorous opponents. In this world Douglas Feith manipulates Don Rumsfeld, and Dick Cheney takes orders from Richard Perle.

By Eliot A. Cohen
The writer is a professor at Johns Hopkins University's School of Advanced International Studies.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01282.html

The essay by John J. Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago and Stephen M. Walt of the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard on “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy” and the 2006 book Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid by former President Jimmy Carter have lent an alarming veneer of credibility to these accusations, which are little more than paranoid fantasies that reinforce persistent, anti-Semitic myths.

In The Deadliest Lies: The Israel Lobby and The Myth of Jewish Control (Palgrave Macmillan, September 2007), Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Anti-Defamation League, reveals these ideas for the falsehoods they are. In particular, he demolishes the claims of an all powerful Israel Lobby and a global Jewish conspiracy, revealing their historic roots in the most virulent forms of bigotry. He shows how hateful anti-Semitic stereotypes are once again resurfacing and becoming dangerously mainstream. From Jimmy Carter to Mearsheimer and Walt, he addresses head-on the public figures who irresponsibly inspire these ideas and unfairly single out Jews for criticism.

http://www.adl.org/Anti_semitism/deadliest_lies/

Why does ADL talk about the "myth" about the "Jewish control" when referring to “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”, and why do they call the authors an "Anti-Semites"?

And here is what Nixon said about Jewish power in the USA:

The president of the USA says in a private phone conversations that Jews control the USA.
But he never dared to say this openly, because he knew that this would be the end of his career!
The last president that defied the Israel Lobby was JFK, and that was not good for his health.

[wat0n]

Wow!



Have you read their work?

Yes, and you clearly haven't

It is great that you think that they a good and diligent scientist.

Where did I say that?

Most Zionists, who have read the work, believe these professors are "Anti-Semites" that believe in the "myth" about the "Jewish Control" of the USA.
Here are some examples:

Why does ADL talk about the "myth" about the "Jewish control" when referring to “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”, and why do they call the authors an "Anti-Semites"?

I don't know, actually, but at least Mearsheimer and Walt don't seem to believe that:

One of the most prominent charges against us is that we see the lobby as a well-organised Jewish conspiracy. Jeffrey Herf and Andrei Markovits, for example, begin by noting that ‘accusations of powerful Jews behind the scenes are part of the most dangerous traditions of modern anti-semitism’ (Letters, 6 April). It is a tradition we deplore and that we explicitly rejected in our article. Instead, we described the lobby as a loose coalition of individuals and organisations without a central headquarters. It includes gentiles as well as Jews, and many Jewish-Americans do not endorse its positions on some or all issues. Most important, the Israel lobby is not a secret, clandestine cabal; on the contrary, it is openly engaged in interest-group politics and there is nothing conspiratorial or illicit about its behaviour. Thus, we can easily believe that Daniel Pipes has never ‘taken orders’ from the lobby, because the Leninist caricature of the lobby depicted in his letter is one that we clearly dismissed. Readers will also note that Pipes does not deny that his organisation, Campus Watch, was created in order to monitor what academics say, write and teach, so as to discourage them from engaging in open discourse about the Middle East.

And here is what Nixon said about Jewish power in the USA:

The president of the USA says in a private phone conversations that Jews control the USA.
But he never dared to say this openly, because he knew that this would be the end of his career!
The last president that defied the Israel Lobby was JFK, and that was not good for his health.

Yes, yes, it's known Nixon wasn't fond off Democrat-voting Jews. So what?

Also, are you now saying Zionists killed JFK? Is this yet another silly conspiracy theory of yours?

[ArtAllm]

ArtAllm:
Most Zionists, who have read the work, believe these professors are "Anti-Semites" that believe in the "myth" about the "Jewish Control" of the USA.
Here are some examples:

Why does ADL talk about the "myth" about the "Jewish control" when referring to “The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy”, and why do they call the authors an "Anti-Semites?
----

I don't know, actually, but at least Mearsheimer and Walt don't seem to believe that:

It seems that you are unable to understand plain English.
Zionists accuse Wall and Mersheimer of promoting a myth and a conspiracy theory.

But Mearsheimer and Walt say that this is not a conspiracy theory, but an open and obvious fact.


Quote: "Most important, the Israel lobby is not a secret, clandestine cabal; on the contrary, it is openly engaged in interest-group politics and there is nothing conspiratorial or illicit about its behaviour".


Yes, it is legal to bribe the politicians in the USA, who pays the money, owns the politicians. I agree with this statement. The Israel Lobby subverted the legal system of the USA and legalised bribery.

Yes, yes, it's known Nixon wasn't fond off Democrat-voting Jews.

Nixon was not talking about Democrat -voting Jews, dude, he talked about the grip of Jews on US media and political process.

They predicted, that if this grip will not be broken, USA will go down the drain, what is happening now.

The Israel Lobby owns the candidates of both parties, and it owns the major media outlet in the USA and in the entire western world, not to mention the Federal Reserve, the private Jewish bank system that control the world finances and is the major responsible for the present financial melt down.

[Dormin]

We own all of this?

So where's my dime? :<

[wat0n]

It seems that you are unable to understand plain English.
Zionists accuse Wall and Mersheimer of promoting a myth and a conspiracy theory.

But Mearsheimer and Walt say that this is not a conspiracy theory, but an open and obvious fact.


Quote: "Most important, the Israel lobby is not a secret, clandestine cabal; on the contrary, it is openly engaged in interest-group politics and there is nothing conspiratorial or illicit about its behaviour".


Yes, it is legal to bribe the politicians in the USA, who pays the money, owns the politicians. I agree with this statement. The Israel Lobby subverted the legal system of the USA and legalised bribery.

They don't say the Israel Lobby control the USA, it seems the person who doesn't understand plain English here is you - or maybe you do, but you are trying to distort what they are saying, just as you dishonestly misquoted what the German medical associations had to say about ear-piercings. I wonder which one is it?

What they do say is that, according to them, it is powerful - but even the arguments they give and the sources they cite don't allow you to conclude that. An obvious example, which you would know of if you had actually read their paper:

Jewish‐Americans have formed an impressive array of organizations to influence American foreign policy, of which AIPAC is the most powerful and well‐known. In 1997, Fortune magazine asked members of Congress and their staffs to list the most powerful lobbies in Washington.65 AIPAC was ranked second behind the American Association of Retired People (AARP), but ahead of heavyweight lobbies like the AFL‐CIO and the National Rifle Association. A National Journal study in March 2005 reached a similar conclusion, placing AIPAC in second place (tied with AARP) in the Washington’s “muscle rankings.”66

So the American Association of Retired People (AARP) is at least as powerful as AIPAC. I wonder, now, does the AARP control the US political system? I don't think Mearsheimer and Walt believe that, do they?

Nixon was not talking about Democrat -voting Jews, dude, he talked about the grip of Jews on US media and political process.

They predicted, that if this grip will not be broken, USA will go down the drain, what is happening now.

The Israel Lobby owns the candidates of both parties, and it owns the major media outlet in the USA and in the entire western world, not to mention the Federal Reserve, the private Jewish bank system that control the world finances and is the major responsible for the present financial melt down.

Aha, and these Jews he talks about usually voted and still vote for Democrats. There's nothing new there.

The rest of what you said is just a baseless conspiracy theory.

[Maas]

So the American Association of Retired People (AARP) is at least as powerful as AIPAC. I wonder, now, does the AARP control the US political system? I don't think Mearsheimer and Walt believe that, do they?

AARP influence things for internal matters, which don't conflict with AIPAC. And what you think about what Measheimer and Walt believe, is a silly opinion unfounded by any argument.

[ArtAllm]

They don't say the Israel Lobby control the USA...

Let's see, what they say:

Why has the United States been willing to set aside its own security in order to advance the interests of another state?
...
Like virtually all the neoconservatives, Feith is deeply committed to Israel. He also has long‐standing ties to the Likud Party. He wrote articles in the 1990s supporting the settlements and arguing that Israel should retain the occupied territories.170

More importantly, along with Perle and Wurmser, he wrote the famous “Clean Break” report in June 1996 for the incoming Israeli Prime Minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.171 Among other things, it recommended that Netanyahu “focus on removing Saddam Hussein from power in Iraq ‐‐ an important Israeli strategic objective in its own right.” It also called for Israel to take steps to reorder the entire Middle East. Netanyahu did not implement their advice, but Feith, Perle and Wurmser were soon advocating that the Bush Administration pursue those same goals. This situation prompted Ha’aretz columnist Akiva Eldar to warn that Feith and Perle “are walking a fine line between their loyalty to American governments … and Israeli interests.”172
...


It is AIPAC itself, however, that forms the core of the Lobby’s influence in Congress. AIPAC’s success is due to its ability to reward legislators and congressional candidates who support its agenda, and to punish those who challenge it.

Money is critical to U.S. elections (as the recent scandal over lobbyist Jack Abramoff’s various shady dealings reminds us), and AIPAC makes sure that its friends get strong financial support from the myriad pro‐Israel political action committees. Those seen as hostile to Israel, on the other hand, can be sure that AIPAC will direct campaign contributions to their political opponents. AIPAC also organizes letter‐writing campaigns and encourages newspaper editors to endorse pro‐Israel candidates.
...

First, it wields significant influence in Washington, pressuring both Congress and the Executive branch to support Israel down the line. Whatever an individual lawmaker or policymaker’s own views, the Lobby tries to make supporting Israel the “smart” political choice.

Second, the Lobby strives to ensure that public discourse about Israel portrays it in a positive light, by repeating myths about Israel and its founding and by publicizing Israel’s side in the policy debates of the day. The goal is to prevent critical commentary about Israel from getting a fair hearing in the political arena. Controlling the debate is essential to guaranteeing U.S. support, because a 16 candid discussion of U.S.‐Israeli relations might lead Americans to favor a different policy.
...
Perhaps the most disturbing aspect of this campaign to eliminate criticism of Israel from college campuses is the effort by Jewish groups to push Congress to establish mechanisms that monitor what professors say about Israel.99 Schools judged to have an anti‐Israel bias would be denied Federal funding.
...

mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

So the American Association of Retired People (AARP) is at least as powerful as AIPAC. I wonder, now, does the AARP control the US political system?

AARP is not a lobby that supports the interests of a foreign country and betrays the interests of the USA, dude.
AIPAC is an ethno-religous lobby that supports the interests of a foreign country, and that leads to cases, like the Pollard Case, and prominent Jewish lawyers, like the supporter of torture Alan Dersoewitz, leads the compain for freeing the traitor, that damaged the USA more than any other spy.

The core of the Lobby is comprised of American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel’s interests. Their activities go beyond merely voting for candidates who are pro‐Israel to include letter‐writing, financial contributions, and supporting pro‐Israel organizations.

...
AIPAC and its allies (including Christian Zionists) have no serious opponents in the lobbying world. They know it has become more difficult to make Israel’s case today, and they are responding by expanding their activities and staffs.211 Moreover, American politicians remain acutely sensitive to campaign contributions and other forms of political pressure and major media outlets are likely to remain sympathetic to Israel no matter what it does.

mearsheimer.uchicago.edu/pdfs/A0040.pdf

Aha, and these Jews he talks about usually voted and still vote for Democrats. There's nothing new there.

Both democrats and republicans are bribed by Jewish money, that is a well-known fact. It does not matter what party wins, both candidates have to genuflect before the AIPAC and promise that they will support Israel, if they want to be elected.

Financial figures

A summary of pro-Israel campaign donations for the period of 1990–2008 collected by Center for Responsive Politics indicates current totals and a general increase in proportional donations to the US Republican party since 1996.[44] The Washington Post summarized the Center for Responsive Politics' 1990–2006 data and concluded that "Pro-Israel interests have contributed $56.8 million in individual, group and soft money donations to federal candidates and party committees since 1990."[45] In contrast, Arab-Americans and Muslim PACs contributed slightly less than $800,000 during the same (1990–2006) period.[46]

J.J. Goldberg wrote in his 1994 book Jewish Power that 45% of the Democratic Party’s fundraising and 25% of that for the Republican Party came from Jewish-funded Political Action Committees.[47]

Richard Cohen, a columnist for the Washington Post, updated those figures in 2006 citing figures of 60% and 35% respectively for the Democratic and Republican Parties.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_lob ... ted_States

[wat0n]

AARP influence things for internal matters, which don't conflict with AIPAC.

So? I don't see anyone saying AARP controls the United states. Certainly not Mearsheimer and Walt. Yet the AARP is at least as powerful (if not more) as AIPAC according to them, what do you think it says about what they believe regarding its power?

And what you think about what Measheimer and Walt believe, is a silly opinion unfounded by any argument.

It's not about what I think, it's about what they say. And it is clear they are not saying the pro-Israel Lobby controls the United States as ArtAllm is claiming

Let's see, what they say:

I don't see them saying AIPAC controls the United States, all they are saying is that in their opinion it is very influential.

AARP is not a lobby that supports the interests of a foreign country and betrays the interests of the USA, dude.

No, but they don't claim AARP controls the US yet they do seem to believe it is at least as influential as AIPAC, if not more. What does it say to you? Are they claiming AIPAC controls the US?

AIPAC is an ethno-religous lobby that supports the interests of a foreign country, and that leads to cases, like the Pollard Case, and prominent Jewish lawyers, like the supporter of torture Alan Dersoewitz, leads the compain for freeing the traitor, that damaged the USA more than any other spy.

It doesn't matter whether they are an ethnic lobby or not, the fact is that Mearsheimer and Walt didn't say it controls the United States - period.

And actually, the Pollard case is a perfect example of how the Israel Lobby fails to be influential enough to decide American policy - it's not like he has been released, has he? It is also evidence against Mearsheimer and Walt's theory of how influential the Israel Lobby really is, if it cannot succeed in releasing a low-key spy then it's even less likely it has any meaningful influence in a matter as delicate as the United States' foreign policy. And it's not the only failure it has had, not at all:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel–United_States_relations#The_Reassessment_Crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US/Saudi_AWACS_Sale

Both democrats and republicans are bribed by Jewish money, that is a well-known fact. It does not matter what party wins, both candidates have to genuflect before the AIPAC and promise that they will support Israel, if they want to be elected.

That's a rather low amount of money considering how much the Lobby industry spends. As such, politicians could as well sell themselves to all sort of corporate lobbies if they want to be elected, without really needing AIPAC's funding to succeed at all.

It seems facts once again clash with your conspiracy theories

[ArtAllm]

AARP influence things for internal matters, which don't conflict with AIPAC.

So? I don't see anyone saying AARP controls the United states. Certainly not Mearsheimer and Walt.

You seem to suffer from a grave form of faulty logic.

AARP is USA, that is not a lobby of a foreign country, there are no loyalty-issues with this lobby.

What to the Israel Lobby, it is a lobby of a foreign country, this country was caught red-handed spying against the USA, Israel even planned terrorist acts against the USA.

Google for Pollard Case, Lavon Affair, USS-Liberty, only to mention a couple of well known cases.

I don't see them saying AIPAC controls the United States, all they are saying is that in their opinion it is very influential.

Are you trolling?

AIPAC is only the tip of the iceberg, and they say in plain English that American politicians and journalists are bought with Jewish money, and who is not corrupt and wants to be loyal to the USA, those are called "Anti-Semites" or "Racists", and their career is ruined.

It doesn't matter whether they are an ethnic lobby or not...

It is obvious that it DOES matter.

And actually, the Pollard case is a perfect example of how the Israel Lobby fails to be influential enough to decide American policy ...

Wow!

Pollard was not executed for his crime, and American Jews who dare to fight for the release of this traitor are not called traitors, and you have the nerve to say that the Israel Lobby does not control the USA?

What would convince you? Do Americans have to release Pollard and apologize for their "Anti-Semitism"?

I will not be surprised if this will happen soon!

Benjamin Netanyahu has been particularly vocal in lobbying for Pollard's release, visiting Pollard in prison in 2002.[3][64] Netanyahu raised the issue with President Bill Clinton during the Wye River peace talks in 1998.[65] In his autobiography, Clinton wrote that he was inclined to release Pollard, but the objections of U.S. intelligence officials were too strong:

For all the sympathy Pollard generated in Israel, he was a hard case to push in America; he had sold our country's secrets for money, not conviction, and for years had not shown any remorse. When I talked to Sandy Berger and George Tenet, they were adamantly opposed to letting Pollard go, as was Madeleine Albright.[66]

Alan Dershowitz has been among Pollard's high-profile supporters, both in the courtroom as a lawyer and in various print media. Characterizing the sentence as "excessive," Dershowitz writes in an article reprinted in his bestselling book Chutzpah!, "As an American, and as a Jew, I hereby express my outrage at Jonathan Pollard's sentence of life imprisonment for the crime to which he pleaded guilty."[67]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_Pollard

As we see. Zionists managed to bribe Clinton and any other president who came after Clinton, but they cannot bribe the intelligent services yet.

BTW, that is the reason why the lapdog of Israel (USA) has not started a war against Iran yet. The American intelligence services know that Iran has no intentions to build an atomic bomb and they are against another war for Israel.

As such, politicians could as well sell themselves to all sort of corporate lobbies if they want to be elected, without really needing

If you are unable to understand that an industrial lobby of your own country and a lobby that represents the interests of a foreign country are two different things, then there is no use to discuss more complicated matters.



Heck, it is always the same, the hasbara-drones are either delusional, dishonest, dimwitted, or some combination thereof.

[wat0n]

You seem to suffer from a grave form of faulty logic.

Odd claim coming from someone who believes in 19th century pseudo-science.

AARP is USA, that is not a lobby of a foreign country, there are no loyalty-issues with this lobby.

What to the Israel Lobby, it is a lobby of a foreign country, this country was caught red-handed spying against the USA, Israel even planned terrorist acts against the USA.

Google for Pollard Case, Lavon Affair, USS-Liberty, only to mention a couple of well known cases.

It is obvious that it DOES matter.

If you are unable to understand that an industrial lobby of your own country and a lobby that represents the interests of a foreign country are two different things, then there is no use to discuss more complicated matters.

Irrelevant, whether the pro-Israel Lobby is an ethnic and/or a foreign lobby has absolutely nothing to do with the claim that the pro-Israel Lobby controls US policy.

This is a Non-sequitur, an actual logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_(logic)

It could also be considered to be a Red Herring, which also an actual logical fallacy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_herring_(fallacy)

Are you trolling?

AIPAC is only the tip of the iceberg, and they say in plain English that American politicians and journalists are bought with Jewish money, and who is not corrupt and wants to be loyal to the USA, those are called "Anti-Semites" or "Racists", and their career is ruined.

Actually what they say is that the pro-Israel Lobby is very influential and that American politicians avoid messing with it, they do not say that it controls the United States' foreign policy.

And as my examples show, the truth is that Mearsheimer and Walt are exaggerating the pro-Israel Lobby's influence - the actual facts show they are wrong.

Wow!

Pollard was not executed for his crime, and American Jews who dare to fight for the release of this traitor are not called traitors, and you have the nerve to say that the Israel Lobby does not control the USA?

As we see. Zionists managed to bribe Clinton and any other president who came after Clinton, but they cannot bribe the intelligent services yet.

BTW, that is the reason why the lapdog of Israel (USA) has not started a war against Iran yet. The American intelligence services know that Iran has no intentions to build an atomic bomb and they are against another war for Israel.

The pro-Israel Lobby has failed in getting him release despite its constant efforts to get him free, that certainly shows it cannot determine the US' policies or else Pollard would be free.

Also, death penalty is a rather rare punishment for spying in the US, so I'm not surprised he has not been executed.

What would convince you? Do Americans have to release Pollard and apologize for their "Anti-Semitism"?

I will not be surprised if this will happen soon!

I never said Pollard should be released, sorry.

Considering that he has been locked for a few decades now I doubt he'll be pardoned anytime soon.

Heck, it is always the same, the hasbara-drones are either delusional, dishonest, dimwitted, or some combination thereof.

Said by someone who was actually caught deliberately mistranslating what German medical associations said regarding earrings on children and who has engaged in logical fallacies to discuss the power of the pro-Israel Lobby in the United States, and this is not counting that he has deliberately disregarded the scientific evidence on male circumcision (the original topic of this thread, you know).

Maybe you could actually try to show any of your arguments holds any water instead of holding an obviously misplaced sense of authority which only makes you look like an idiot.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Do you believe that prominent professors, like Norman Finkelstein, Israel Shahak, John Mearsheimer, Stephen Walt and Kevin Macdonald, to mention only a few, who published well footnoted works, proving that American and all western Media and the political process are controlled by the Israel Lobby, made any mistakes?

I think that they are right, because somebody has to be blind when he finds no evidence for the dominance of the Israel Lobby.

If any of these people actually claim that Israel or Jews are in control, then yes, I'd call their opinion nonsense.

Even the fact that Germany had to pass a law that contradicts the German constitution in order to please the Jews is one more prove that the Israel Lobby controls the political process in Germany.

If you believe this law violates the constitution you better bring this case before the constitutional court. But let me guess, the court is also controlled by Jews...

These "Christians" genuflect before the Israel Lobby. They are pre-selected by this lobby, and they know that this lobby can ruin their career.

I have a hard time understanding how somebody can actually believe this. There is no evidence for it whatsoever.

No, it was not obvious. They would have never passed a law making an exception of female genital mutilation, which is also a religious traditions, but not a JEWISH religious tradition. And they will never pass a law making an exception for forced marriages and other "religious traditions" that violate the human rights of children, but are not part of the Jewish tradition any more.

Circumcision is a legacy religious ritual that has been viewed differently than all the other traditions mainly because it was (and still is recommended for high risk populations, btw.) thought to have health benefits and because it has become a cultural tradition in the US. It isn't banned in any European country as far as I know. I know this will not reach you, but you are giving far too much credit to Jewish influence.

No, it will now become more and more common, because it was legalised, and religious traditions have nothing to do with health benefits.

All kinds of religious fundamentalism are on the rise because of the spineless politicians who are afraid to call a spade a spade.

Jewish religious fundamentalism and extremism becomes mainstream in Israel, and in will become mainstream in any western country, because of the Holocaust Industry.

Circumcision rates have been dropping even in the US where it is legal and which is, according to you, utterly controlled by the Israel lobby. It is and has also been legal in Europe while rates have been dropping.

[Dormin]

Jewish religious fundamentalism and extremism becomes mainstream in Israel, and in will become mainstream in any western country, because of the Holocaust Industry.

Oh lordy, you know, I didn't botherd to get into the whole Jewish Lobby thing because it seems Waton is doing a great job handling your case.

But this...again, oh lordy.

Are you are aware that these religious extremists are now suffering from the same prosecution they had back in europe, just now by the seculer jews? we are going to elections now over the fact pepople are sick of seeing them leech out of society without giving anything in return.

They aren't becoming mainstream, they are being excommunicated from society.

[ArtAllm]

If any of these people actually claim that Israel or Jews are in control, then yes, I'd call their opinion nonsense.

Ignorance is bliss!



I have talked to many religious fanatics. If you say to a religious fanatic: "Look, here is the scientific evidence, humans existed already 300 000 years ago, though according to your holy books they stem from Adam and Eve".

What is the usual reaction of a religious fanatic?
He usually says that if science contradicts their religious nonsense, then the science is nonsense and the sciientists are bad guys.

The same with you.

Without reading the books and addressing the arguments and facts you just call the facts "nonsense".

But let me guess, the court is also controlled by Jews...

Well, who controls the money, controls everything.
As one prominent banker said:
"Permit me to issue and control the money and I care not who makes the laws."

Here is a good picture that illustrates this phenomenon:

http://www.spiegel.de/spiegel/print/index-2011-50.html

Circumcision is a legacy religious ritual that has been viewed differently than all the other traditions mainly because it was (and still is recommended for high risk populations, btw.) thought to have health benefits and because it has become a cultural tradition in the US.

It became a cultural tradition in the USA because Jewish doctors fooled the non-Jewish population. That was good for their money pockets, and it made this barbaric tradition acceptable for non-Jews.

It isn't banned in any European country as far as I know.

Well, no mutilation is banned in any civilized country, if the person mutilates himself.

But it is prohibited to forcefully mutilate other persons. And the forced circumcision of infants is precisely forced circumcision.

But were is no claimant, there is no judge.

All these facts were already many times repeated in this thread, but it seems that you just ignore all arguments and repeat your mantra.

Many western countries have laws that make the forced circumcision of infants punishable.

According to Australian law a child can sue his parents and the doctors at a later date, when he becomes a man.

In Bulgaria and almost all East-European countries the forced circumcision of children was banned till these countries became part of the "free world", were children can be freely mutilated and nobody is punished, if nobody complains.

But this is changing.

In the UK a victim of circumcision is suing his father, many lawyers believe that forced circumcision is illegal in the UK, but there were no legal cases yet.

In Finland a mother was sued for the circumcision of a four-year old boy. The husband sued his wife.

In Norway a law is proposed that outlaws the circumcision of males under eighteen.

In Sweden you cannot circumcise a baby till he is 2 month old and without the the authorisation of the health department.

In France a victim of circumcision can sue the perpetrators when he becomes an man.

Is this enough?

Circumcision rates have been dropping even in the US where it is legal and which is, according to you, utterly controlled by the Israel lobby. It is and has also been legal in Europe while rates have been dropping.

Another straw man?

The ritual circumcision rate in the USA or any other country are NOT dropping.
Only Christians are now waking up, because they realised that they were fooled by Jewish doctors.

Irrelevant, whether the pro-Israel Lobby is an ethnic and/or a foreign lobby has absolutely nothing to do with the claim that the pro-Israel Lobby controls US policy.

Well, you said that the Rifle Lobby has more power than the Israel Lobby, but you are unable to understand that the Rifle Lobby is not a lobby of a foreign country, and a Rifle Lobby cannot force America into another war for the benefit of another country.

Because of loyalty issues it IS relevant if we are talking about an American lobby, or about an Israel Lobby.

That is a no-brainer, isn't it?

Also, death penalty is a rather rare punishment for spying in the US, so I'm not surprised he has not been executed.

Well, he inflicted a huge damage to the security of the USA, he damaged the USA more than any spy did in the history of the USA (except the Rosenbergs, another Zionist Jews), and he showed no remorse. He continued betraying the USA even after he was put into prison.

The federal government retains the death penalty for such non-murder offences as treason, and espionage, but because of the pressure of the Israel Lobby Pllard was not executed.

Said by someone who was actually caught deliberately mistranslating what German medical associations ...

How can somebody, who has big difficulties in understanding English texts judge about the content of German texts?

Maybe you could actually try to show any of your arguments holds any water....

I used to discuss with religious fanatics, but I could never convince any of them.

Any religious fanatic believes that all scientific evidence and all facts do not hold any water, and that all non-religious scientists are conspiring against the poor and innocent religious nutters just in order to piss them off and destroy their believe system.

[wat0n]

Well, you said that the Rifle Lobby has more power than the Israel Lobby,

No, Mearsheimer and Walt quoted two external sources arguing the Pensioners Lobby has at least as much power as the Israel Lobby.

but you are unable to understand that the Rifle Lobby is not a lobby of a foreign country, and a Rifle Lobby cannot force America into another war for the benefit of another country.

Irrelevant, and actually local lobbies can perfectly vouch for wars against other countries, even those who are not centered on foreign policy.

Likewise this has nothing to do with the alleged power of the Israel Lobby, to say it is a de facto foreign lobby and present it as evidence of its power is a non-sequitur.

Because of loyalty issues it IS relevant if we are talking about an American lobby, or about an Israel Lobby.

That is a no-brainer, isn't it?

Irrelevant as far as your claim that the Israel Lobby controls American policy goes, this is a classical red herring.

And actually, the Israel Lobby is far from being the only foreign-policy centered lobby yet it is invariably the only one that gets its loyalty questioned, interestingly by people who believe the average American is dumb just as you do. I wonder why would that be?

Well, he inflicted a huge damage to the security of the USA, he damaged the USA more than any spy did in the history of the USA (except the Rosenbergs, another Zionist Jews), and he showed no remorse. He continued betraying the USA even after he was put into prison.

The federal government retains the death penalty for such non-murder offences as treason, and espionage, but because of the pressure of the Israel Lobby Pllard was not executed.

Actually, the other spies who were part of Julius Rosenberg's ring weren't executed and got softer sentences than Pollard.

How can somebody, who has big difficulties in understanding English texts judge about the content of German texts?

Wait, do you want me to point out how bad your English is? As for your mistranslation, Kaiserschmarrn caught you and you admitted to mistranslating the text.

I used to discuss with religious fanatics, but I could never convince any of them.

Any religious fanatic believes that all scientific evidence and all facts do not hold any water, and that all non-religious scientists are conspiring against the poor and innocent religious nutters just in order to piss them off and destroy their believe system.

Sorry, the only one who has hinted of a conspiracy lead by Jewish doctors to get public support for circumcision in this thread has been you. So far I have actually cited scientific literature in the issue - which you have chosen to ignore - to support my point that male circumcision doesn't seem to have any meaningful positive or negative effects on health as it is the most reasonable conclusion considering the literature is mixed.

[ArtAllm]

No, Mearsheimer and Walt quoted two external sources arguing the Pensioners Lobby has at least as much power as the Israel Lobby.

So what?
These pensioners are Americans, not Israelis, their interests do not contradict the interests of their country.

...local lobbies can perfectly vouch for wars against other countries, even those who are not centered on foreign policy.

Well, they are part of the country, and if they lobby for wars, then these wars are in their interests and in the interests of their country.

The Israel Lobby is a lobby that represents the interests of a foreign country, and that has to do with loyalty issues.

Irrelevant as far as your claim that the Israel Lobby controls American policy goes, this is a classical red herring.

Well, Jews constantly brag about it in their media, American presidents admit that, and American professors confirmed that with their well footnoted works.

But some WatOn and Kaiser-Schmarrn deny this obvious fact. They refuse to see the 800 pound gorilla in the room.

Big deal! Who cares!






Benjamin Netanyahu was received by the bribed American congress like Brezhnev was received in his party meetings by the corrupt Communist apparatchiks.

And actually, the Israel Lobby is far from being the only foreign-policy centered lobby...

What other lobby, that lobbies for the interests of a foreign country, can rival the power of the Israel Lobby?


yet it is invariably the only one that gets its loyalty questioned, interestingly by people who believe the average American is dumb just as you do. I wonder why would that be?

As for your mistranslation, Kaiserschmarrn caught you and you admitted to mistranslating the text.

I was not translating the text, duede, I have just told what the text was about.

And German doctors use the word "Schädigung" (damage) and "Verletzung" in their statements.

Natürlich sei eine Beschneidung ein noch wesentlich weitergehender Eingriff, aber auch ein Loch im Ohrläppchen sei eine nicht mehr rückgängig zu machende Schädigung, da es nicht mehr zuwachse.

http://www.focus.de/gesundheit/baby/kle ... 11424.html

If German is really the native language of Kaiserschmarrn and if she or her is an honest person, she or her has to admit that I am right.

And here is the meaning of the word mutilation:

Mutilation or maiming is an act of physical injury that degrades the appearance or function ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutilation

So if you damage the genitalia and degrade the function of the penis (and this is precisely the case by circumcision, that is even admitted by the most famous Jewish doctor and theologian Moses Maimonides), then circumcision IS mutilation.

It is obvious to anybody with an average IQ that German paediatricians were talking about mutilation, thought they used another word, they were talking about "irreversible damage".

But if the penis is damaged in order to reduced its functionality, to prevent masturbation and to reduce sexual pleasure, then this organ IS MUTILATED, period!

Here is the definition of the FMG:

Female genital mutilation (FGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the female genital organs for non-medical reasons.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

So what will be wrong with this definition?

Male genital mutilation (MGM) includes procedures that intentionally alter or cause injury to the male genital organs for non-medical reasons.

It is obvious to anybody but idiots that MGM is the same as FMG, but because the MGM happens to be a Jewish traditions, Jews feel offended if you call a spade a spade, and doctors have to use euphemisms, because they are very afraid of being called "Anti-Semites".

Sorry, the only one who has hinted of a conspiracy lead by Jewish doctors to get public support for circumcision in this thread has been you.

That was an obvious pragmatical approach, and quotes were already provided.

Jewish doctors promoted in Jewish controlled media the opinion that circumcision is good for the health of boys and prevents masturbation. It is obvious that this disinformation was good for the Jewish doctors and Rabbis.

The main reason for the sudden enthusiasm for Jewish child rearing practices was the impression that Jewish boys did not masturbate, a contention widely debated in the medical journals of the time but eagerly confirmed by Jewish doctors, who were understandably delighted that the gentile world was at last beginning to respect a ritual it had traditionally despised.

In seeking evidence for the effects of circumcision, the medical profession naturally looked to the Jewish community, whose own doctors were only too happy to assure them that Jewish boys did not masturbate, or not as much as the uncircumcised. As Dr M.J. Moses advised:

As an Israelite, I desire to ventilate the subject.... I refer to masturbation as one of the effects of a long prepuce; not that this vice is entirely absent in those who have undergone circumcision, though I never saw an instance in a Jewish child of very tender years except as the result of association with children whose covered glans have naturally impelled them to the habit. (60)

Support for preventive circumcision was strengthened by reports that Jews also presented with lower rates of syphilis and cancer of the penis, and it was assumed that the absence of the foreskin must account for the difference.
(62)

http://www.cirp.org/library/history/darby4/