Russian Secessionists in Ukraine Call Upon Putin for Aid - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14388951
Separatists in east Ukraine call on Putin for help, Kiev warns of force
by Thomas Grove
Reuters
LUHANSK, Ukraine Wed Apr 9, 2014 6:00pm EDT

(Reuters) - Pro-Russian separatists reinforced barricades around the state security building in the eastern Ukrainian city of Luhansk on Wednesday and called on President Vladimir Putin for help after the government warned it could use force to restore order.
Protesters were also engaged in talks to ease the standoff, which Kiev has said could provide a pretext for a Russian invasion, and lawmakers from eastern Ukraine proposed an amnesty for protesters to defuse tension.
The former KGB headquarters is one of three government buildings seized this week in eastern Ukraine by protesters demanding regional referendums on independence from Kiev.

Tensions have risen in the mainly Russian-speaking east since the overthrow of Ukraine's Moscow-backed president and the installation of a new pro-European government.
"Of course we must ask Russia to take us in because I don't see an alternative," said a man dressed in camouflage who gave his name as Vasiliy and said he was the commandant of the building. "Putin help us!" he said.

In a news conference held inside the occupied building late on Wednesday, Valery Bolikov, who said he was a representative of headquarters of the Southern and Eastern Army, said talks with authorities had failed to yet bring an agreement.
"Talks are continuing there are a few issues which are being dealt with but they haven't come to their logical conclusion," he said in Ukraine's Security Services ornate conference hall.
While some protesters have championed the idea of joining Russia like Crimea, Bolikov said that their demands went no further than a referendum to vote whether to give Luhansk more autonomy as part of a federal structure in Ukraine.
"(We will leave the building) only after the fulfillment of our demands of the carrying out of a referendum on federalization," he said.

Outside of the conference hall, masked men armed with kalashnikovs, pistols and guns lined the building's many corridors. Tensions around the seizure of the building rose after the protesters broke into the security service's arsenal.
One protesters put the arsenal at around 200-300 rifles.
Local police spokeswoman Tatyana Pogukai said that police were not taking any action while negotiations were ongoing.
"We don't want any violence. No one needs any death or blood," she said over the telephone.

FORCEFUL ANSWER'
Protesters in Donetsk, to the south, remain in control of the main regional authority building, but authorities have ended the occupation in the city of Kharkiv.
"A resolution to this crisis will be found within the next 48 hours," Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told reporters in the capital Kiev.
"For those who want dialogue, we propose talks and a political solution. For the minority who want conflict they will get a forceful answer from the Ukrainian authorities," he said.

Ukraine's state security service said that 50 people had left the building in Luhansk overnight. Protesters confirmed that some had left.
"Those who left were not ready to stay and fight," said Vasiliy, who said his "soldiers" would fight on until a referendum on independence from Kiev was held.

Occupation leaders said those who stayed behind were trained soldiers who had fought in Chechnya and Afghanistan.
"We won't be the first ones to fire a shot but we will defend ourselves," said Pavel Strupchevsky.

Protesters insist that they have no help from Russia and that no Russians are among their ranks, but Ukraine's government says the actions are part of a Russian-led plan to dismember the country, a charge Moscow denies.

U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry accused Russian agents and special forces on Tuesday of stirring up separatist unrest and said Moscow could be trying to prepare for military action as it had in Crimea.
Russia denied the accusations on Wednesday and dismissed concerns over a troop buildup near the border with Ukraine in what has become the worst East-West crisis since the end of the Cold War in 1991.
"Russia has stated many times that it is not carrying out any unusual or unplanned activity on its territory near the border with Ukraine that would be of military significance," the Russian Foreign Ministry said.

A lawmaker from the most popular political party in the east, the Party of Regions, on Wednesday said he planned to ask parliament to amnesty the protesters, following the success of a similar move to reduce tension in Kiev two months ago.
"The situation is so tense and complex that one stray word might cause a flare-up," said Oleksandr Yefremov. "To prevent people suffering ... we are proposing a draft law on an amnesty."

(Additional reporting by Pavel Polityuk and Richard Balmforth; Writing by Conor Humphries and Tom Grove; Editing by Giles Elgood and Andrew Hay)
#14389418
He introduces vice team as "a trustworthy network"? Bizzare. This guy looks like a miner, clearly he must have not watched a lot of Vice coverage of anything he actually has personal knowledge of. For example, if he had only known that his face would appear in a segment called "Russian Roulette: The Invasion of Ukraine", I think he would have had something else to say to these crew members lol, something involving fists maybe.
#14390067
As a Russian myself, everyone I know who lived during the soviet times feels hurt by the fact that our ancient state was broken up in such a hurry that some people said it was like one day you owned a soviet passport and the next they handed you an Ukrainian passport, the money you saved all your life was now worthless and monthly salaries where enough to buy a loaf of bread, you heard on tv that democracy was the way to go but everything around you collapsed for the worse and Russia has still not returned to it's prior strength.

Western Ukraine has always been a separatist nation even when it was under the Russian Empire and during the Soviet Union. The 5 year plans where installed by Stalin to essentially bind these areas to Moscow on top of this, the famine in Ukraine was forced by the Soviet officials due to the simple fact that the Ukrainians where defiant of Soviet authority. When the Nazi scum crossed the border onto the ancient lands of Rus', they managed to get a large number of recruits to form the ROA "Russian Liberation Army" and the Crimean Tatars even where allowed to form their own SS regiments, and thus ever since world war 2, Russia has bound itself to Ukraine just like many ex soviet states. With NATO crawling onto Russia's "friend" (who still make helicopter parts and help produce and maintain the Soviet Satan rockets in the eastern regions of Ukraine [happens to be the most industrialized area too]). So Russia obviously feels threatened and for the Russian people who lost half the total deaths from World War 2 when an openly neo-nazi government VIOLENTLY overthrows a democratically elected president who knew he could not break the bond between Russia and Ukraine without ruining the country as a whole(look at it now) who made remarks to murder all the ethnic Russians in Ukraine as well as leave only burned land for the Russians and all of this was/is backed by the West (NATO).

If a territory from a country wants to separate, then it IS legal well only when it benefits America (Kosovo is a prime example) but when the most important areas of a country that America wants to install missiles and a port happens to disprove of what has happened in the capital and decides to join the country it's bound to economically, ethnically and emotionally, then it's considered ILLEGAL and an annexation.

With these 3 points, as well as the threat of violence from the Kiev authorities I can understand why those people ask for Russian support. If I remember from a BBC article that their where snipers who killed people and escalated the problem in Kiev, but no one told you who was killed. Professors, students, elderly, middle age women and children, does that ring a bell? The majority of who where killed happened to be the protesters who where less likely to throw molotovs at the police, but instead this happened to add fuel to the fire of the revolution which is the OPPOSITE of what any government wants.

For those who will flame me for spreading the "Russian Propaganda made by Putin", let me remind you that Propaganda works both ways. America and the West have spread "propaganda" or aka "small untruths" since the beginning of time.
#14390279
Kiev government has no legitimacy in East Ukraine. Special forces are refusing to take orders, police and mayors are defecting to Moscow, the list goes on. Russia will try to passively take over this region as it did with Crimea. The troops on the border are there to ensure that Kiev doesn't send its newly raised nationalist loyalist divisions east. The Ukrainian standing army is completely compromised at this point and is as likely to fight for Russia as it is for Ukraine.

Edit:

One Ukrainian officer and an "unidentifiable number" of separatists have been killed in the eastern city of Slavyansk where an "anti-terrorist operation" is under way, officials say.

Ukraine's Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said one officer was killed and another five injured in the clashes as security forces attempted to retake government buildings occupied by pro-Russian separatists.

In a statement on his Facebook page Mr Avakov said there was also a number of casualties among the protesters, who are currently being supported by around 1,000 civilians.

http://news.sky.com/story/1241376/ukrai ... -crackdown

Russian Foreign Minister Lavrov warns Ukraine's government to avoid using force against pro-Russia protesters
http://diaalnews.com/news/14999#sthash.Pg2gNu4q.dpuf

2 children killed in East Ukraine during battle, helicopter fired upon
http://gulfnews.com/news/world/other-wo ... -1.1318662

More government buildings seized
http://www.unian.net/politics/907280-v- ... a-smi.html
#14390417
Well, if one trusts a News-outlet called "Vice" and the Moderator has a Brotherhood name, I would atleast be a bit suspicious, that the views may have a certain spin.

But nonetheless they can cook it as the like it.
When as has been said Baboushkas (these elder womans, running the households...) are now going to the Streets in numbers in Eastern Ukraine SUPPORTING the Separatists, it's clear like wody what will happen. There are things in the russian soul a non-russian cannot understand, is being said.... I love them for that !
#14390428
Dagoth Ur wrote:There is no evidence whatsoever that the so-called holodomor was intentional at all. Failures of bureaucracy in times of famine (a famine which affected Russia and most central Asian nations as well), does not constitute a policy, and certainly not one of Stalin's.



Well see my grandparents where Kulaks, the class that was obliterated from Russia during the Soviet takeover of the ancient state. As modern media happens to label it as a genocide, this is the only thing I agree with on this topic. You say that it was due to failure to act, I say it was laziness. Whenever any drastic change happens extremely quickly to any ancient form then for certain you should expect a backfire.
#14390432
There are things in the russian soul a non-russian cannot understand, is being said.... I love them for that !


Russian people are very loyal and proud people. It's the patriotism all citizens of Europe I feel have forgotten, it's the same pride that fueled wars in the past. Nowadays, that pride has been channeling into sports as it seems
#14390441
While everybody is talking about armed protests in ukraine. Ukraine economy is collapsing,

Grivna before all of this started around 8 dollars per grivna. Right now its around 12.5-13.5 per grivna. Zimbabwe level inflation levels.
#14390450
The reason for the Grivna to fall so rapidly is because you forget who the lifeline of Ukraine is, it's Russia. Europe has nothing to offer Ukraine except an escape to Europe for those millions of poor people in Ukraine (mass immigration of the poorer peoples= increase in Nationalism in the Euro zone) and that's all Euro-Maidan was. As a Russian student in Europe, I would honestly prefer if the Europeans would fix their basic problems with Spain, Greece and Italy before sending money to the black hole of a country Ukraine, after all corruption there is at a new high. Russia now is going to pull out the life support that has helped Ukraine stay afloat for 20 + years now, after all isn't that what they wanted? An escape to a better life via uncontrolled borders in Europe in exchange for American missile on their land to fight their brothers, ruined economy and a territorial mutiny from the peoples who ELECTED the previous leader. I guess this is what you call a win for Kiev no?
#14390465
Lucien wrote:before sending money to the black hole


Well, the plan was not to help the Ukraine, but slaughter it and create a credit driven dumping ground for more western end products.
Closing more mines and factories and thus firing roughly estimated 20% of the workforce within the next two years. Why do you think they reacted so promptly when Yanukovich wanted some more time to think the deal over (in fact not cancelling, but only to think it over..) ? Is that benevolent ? Do you treat your colleagues in the same fashion ?
If you are to sign a credit deal and want to think it over to the next day, and the next day the dealer shows up with a bat swinging gang. Do you think the deal you are supposed to sign is to your benefit ??!
If in doubt ask a four years old, he certainly can answer it very precisely !

Putin is now calling their evil game bluff with the letter to the EU-Ministers more or less putting up an ultimatum for the EU to come over with some money NOW for the Ukraine, or it's lights out in the Ukraine (well, they will deliver gas, but only for the Euros) I hope the Ukraine will take it all for themselves, to atleast remind the Germans and other Eastern Euros, that there will be an autumn, winter for them as well !

We can be assured not a single Euro will find it's way to the Ukraine in the next few weeks, there will be endless babbling by Merkel & Co. regarding fullfilling some criterias and pastoral deflection towards the already signed treaties and the very evil Russians.
#14390478
OnTPath, I totally agree with you. For now summer comes Europe is okay, but when winter comes knocking at their door I bet my worthless life insurance that their will be a swift change in their singing against the "Russian aggressors in the East". In my argument I may not have stressed enough how bad it is for Ukraine to cut it's life line, that is Russia for an escape path to Europe. The entire idea behind this in my mind is to make Ukraine a dept pool, as in it will borrow American "paper" in exchange for real products and in such a manner America will own (just like when an investor has more than 50% in the company) Ukraine and everything Ukranian just like Europe and the Asian "economical titans" (Japan and S.Korea) who are running on paper that "'Murica" can refuse to acknowledge as their own currency!! That's the entire scam! Exchange for paper that has "value" in return for goods you can use, borrow as much as you can and buy even more goods for your worthless paper and then when you are in a sh*thole just pull the plug and drop the paper and form a new currency!


The Dollar, the biggest scam in history. In fact any form of modern currency is!
#14390491
Lucient wrote:The entire idea behind this in my mind is to make Ukraine a dept pool, as in it will borrow American "paper" in exchange for real products and in such a manner America will own (just like when an investor has more than 50% in the company) Ukraine and everything Ukranian just like Europe and the Asian....


I don't know how evil the Euros really are, however I know for sure, they are stupid as dog shit. I think one cannot overestimate the meaning of Nuland's "Fuck the EU" statement in that phone conversation ! You don't say that either to your friends.... The large politics-show the US was running with one dumb-head after the other racing to Kiev indicates, that behind the Ukraine thing there is another layer. The US(and it's Zio friends) are somewhat upset with the Euros for their obvious phlegmatic support of the Syria undertaking, lack in military spending towards NATO and also their Zio friends absolutely don't like the Embargo imposed onto Israel their precious ! So they either took the opportunity or planned beforehand (I think it's the former), had a handful meetings et voila another Multi-dimensional operation was underway. It's purposes are:
- Against Russia, weaken Russia's position, deflect some awareness regarding Syria and therefore strengthen the own pos.
- Against Russia to create another place where to use their now since around eight years approved tactic to use terror(by seemingly third parties) as a weapon against unaligned countries (Russia). The US and it's vast 'black' operations apparatus has now a plattform to create a hot zone right at the heart of Russia and modulate it at will. But with the final aim of going to total War, which is planned by some circles in the US to create the necessary conditions to gain final world domination (absolutely no fantasy, there are strategy papers which cover this). The time is running against the US, their military apparatus is not really getting stronger anymore relatively (to China and Russia which are expanding at a very high rate) and uses gigantic sums only to maintain (it's always cheaper to create a huge army then maintain it for decades), so they are inclined/forced to use their abilities to the fullest NOW !
- Towards the EU to compromise the EU, futher divide it and draw stronger towards US goals in the region (-> confrontational, as has always been by the US, no matter the smiling and sweet talk) by creating a final rift between Russia and foremost Germany.
The US needs a firm ally on the continent to fullfill their aspirations and naturally this ally is Europe beside Israel.

The US's ability to execute such operations are in stark contrast to the Euro's ones. The Germans FOOLISHLY took the bait and tried to play American Football (not Soccer)....At the latest after Nuland's revelations all alarm bells should have rang as if Hamburg is to be area bombed again, but Merkel walked further directly into the trap. Now there's no way out anymore, game over for Germany ! They will pay !
I even think this will be the dead spell politically for Merkel. She's has no options anymore then walk into the strong body check arms of the US. The eerie silence in the german press speaks volumes.
#14390498
Isn't that what the European Union all about? It was created to mimic the American Union of states and NATO to be launching ground for a future war. America didn't win the cold war, the Cold war hasn't ended. The same missiles that where in place prior to 1991 are still there but the only difference is that the Communist front decided to evolve against the coalition of borrowers. The war is still present, just because there was a party change, doesn't change the ideology of the people. That's what Putin is doing, he is waiting until those who borrowed have to pay the dept and when they do everything that was once Russia will return.

They need Ukraine, it's one of the few LARGE countries that doesn't own a significant amount of American paper. It's no longer to contain Russia, since 1991 it has been to take as much from the Bear before he wakes up but these few recent blows below the belt have aggravated the bear and that's what they want. Also if a war breaks out between Russia and Ukraine, everyone knows the outcome and so do the Ukrainians, those who registered for the armed forces recently are loyalists of the new regime as well as AMERICAN para-military units who were recruited. Recruited by a bankrupt state, doesn't that sound funny? Many people who lived during the Soviet era, loved it and enjoyed it ( beyond the holodomor). Oh yea, did the famine of Holodomor recently get accepted as a genocide by the Soviets on the Ukrainian people, that "international community" sure knows when to squeal when America hold their gold reserves hostage. Anyways last point because I am all over the place now, large number of Ukrainian separatists helped form ROA(Russian Liberation Army) under the Nazis with the help of Bendera. So when they want to separate and join the fascists(they did help them) it's okay, but when the Russians in the east want to it's immoral and should be dealt with force. Hypocrisy on every front, when it helps the American force or even the Nazi force, the west Ukraine where ready to take it in the rear for them for their "Independence"(hue-hue-hue).

Oh yea, when I refer to America I am referring to USA,NATO, EU, Japan,S.Korea and for the most part Israel ( who happen to share 1/4 of their population Russians who witnessed the Nazi brutality first hand) because it's much easier exposing the puppeteer than every puppet he owns
#14390505
Rugoz wrote:Oh Jesus, why does this forum attract the biggest weirdos on this planet?


Because we dare to question everything that is handed to us and not just read it as it is.
If you wish to be a sheep of society, no one is stopping you from so.
#14390517
Lucien wrote:America didn't win the cold war, the Cold war hasn't ended.


Well, they almost succeeded, everything went according to plan until Putin by some strange accident got onto the stage. Five years later and Russia would have been done for. Of 200 key industries (strategic Command target list) they managed to destroy around 60 - 80 according to Putin.

Did you know that an UdSSR atomic submarine was owned by an Australian (who didn't really know he was owner of a nuclear sub). The submarine was in a large hall of that company once bought by that Australian, the company went broke and all forgot about it. All the while the reactor needed constant cooling, else BOOM. It was pure luck they found it, to treat it properly.

The oil deal(their own oil !) they had was that Russia got what was left AFTER the extracting companies deduced ALL their expenditures however ludicrous from the sell price. Russia was a banana republic as the ones in Africa right now !

I never understood how Gorbatchew could trust one of this bandits. He was seriously bagged by Ronnie Raygun and his team.
#14390526
OnTPath wrote:I never understood how Gorbatchew could trust one of this bandits. He was seriously bagged by Ronnie Raygun and his team.


In Russia a popular slogan after the fall of the soviet union, "Dermokrasy" = Shitocracy .
There where other ways to convert to Democracy, such as China! So in my eyes, he was a traitor and now even Russian MPs want to SUE him for doing so. Boris Yeltsin was an American puppet,first president of Russia and he fired down upon the Soviet congressmen with TANKS! Those two clowns are responsible for the conflict today.
The cold war is not over, it's just like any Russian conflict. 2 steps forward and 1 step back. These 20 years have been the step back and now all eyes are on Russia.

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