[Ter]

That is not only unverifiable, but also naive and contradicted by facts.

But if you want to argue that they are criminally stupid at their jobs, go ahead.

You keep on repeating this but you are wrong.
If you really believe that Western countries kill civilians on purpose with drone attacks then I feel sorry for you.

The comparison only works if you ignore actual intentional killing of civilians by western military, such as you are doing.

I don't have to ignore it because it is not happening.

[Pants-of-dog]

You keep on repeating this but you are wrong.
If you really believe that Western countries kill civilians on purpose with drone attacks then I feel sorry for you.

Ah, yes. Your feelings. It would not be a Ter post without some mention of your feelings.

Back to the topic:

The facts of drone operatirs killing civilians have already been established. Thus, we are left arguing whether they do it in purpose or not. If they are doing it by mistake, then they have accidentally killed thousands.

This makes them criminally stupid.

Or, we can use some logic and assume at least some are doing it intentionally.

I don't have to ignore it because it is not happening.

If you think US and UK military personnel are not part of the current Saudi bombing attacks on civilians, you are wrong or gravely uninformed.

And you must be uninformed if you never heard of the Shock and Awe campaign at the beginning of Bush Jr's war on Iraq.

But feel free to ignore this for a fourth time. It is a great way for you to undermine your own argument.

[Godstud]

If you really believe that Western countries kill civilians on purpose with drone attacks then I feel sorry for you.

If it happens once, or twice, it's an accident. If it happens repeatedly(and it has), it is not.

I don't have to ignore it because it is not happening.

You are defending the killing of innocents by drone strikes because you think it prevents Americans from being killed. It isn't. It's also quite intentional if it happens all the time.

41 men targeted but 1,147 people killed: US drone strikes – the facts on the ground
All were reported in the press as “killed” on multiple occasions, meaning that numerous strikes were aimed at each of them. The vast majority of those strikes were unsuccessful. An estimated 142 children were killed in the course of pursuing those 24 men, only six of whom died in the course of drone strikes that killed their intended targets.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... -kill-1147

Also, and this is damning:
The documents show that the military designated people it killed in targeted strikes as EKIA—“enemy killed in action”—even if they were not the intended targets of the strike. Unless evidence posthumously emerged to prove the males killed were not terrorists or “unlawful enemy combatants,” EKIA remained their designation, according to the source. That process, he said, “is insane. But we’ve made ourselves comfortable with that. The intelligence community, JSOC, the CIA, and everybody that helps support and prop up these programs, they’re comfortable with that idea.”

The source described official U.S. government statements minimizing the number of civilian casualties inflicted by drone strikes as “exaggerating at best, if not outright lies.”

Numerous reports during the Obama Administration––including at least one by a former drone pilot––describe a pattern in which a missile fired from a U.S. drone hits an area, bystanders rush to the scene to help the wounded, and the drone, still overhead, kills the rescuers. On other occasions, drones have struck at funerals of drone-strike victims. It is hard to believe the threshold of “near certainty” is crossed in either kind of strike. Credible reports of civilian casualties are common.
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... ng/473541/

That is INTENTIONAL. I bolded it for you, so you wouldn't miss it.

[Ter]

Ah, yes. Your feelings. It would not be a Ter post without some mention of your feelings.

That's right.
And I do feel sorry for you. Having feelings is part of human nature by the way (except for lawyers maybe).

The facts of drone operatirs killing civilians have already been established. Thus, we are left arguing whether they do it in purpose or not. If they are doing it by mistake, then they have accidentally killed thousands.

First of all, the number of civilians accidentally killed is not known.
Secondly, you have to look at it in context. How many drone strikes were there? without knowing that, you cannot judge anything else. But of course you did. And you judge without knowing the facts. Nice. Got it.

Or, we can use some logic and assume at least some are doing it intentionally.

We can assume nothing of the sort.
Please provide evidence for your statement.

If you think US and UK military personnel are not part of the current Saudi bombing attacks on civilians, you are wrong or gravely uninformed

What the Saudis do is their business. Even if they get help from the UK/US in technical or other matters.

And you must be uninformed if you never heard of the Shock and Awe campaign at the beginning of Bush Jr's war on Iraq.

That was war. War events and drone operations are not the same thing. If you wish I will explain that to you sometime.

But feel free to ignore this for a fourth time. It is a great way for you to undermine your own argument.

Of course I will ignore your lame and erroneous reasoning. You can try your lawyer tricks on someone else.
Try to control your bias against the West, it will make you a better balanced poster.

[Pants-of-dog]

That's right.
And I do feel sorry for you. Having feelings is part of human nature by the way (except for lawyers maybe).

Great. Too bad feelings are pointless in a debate.

First of all, the number of civilians accidentally killed is not known.
Secondly, you have to look at it in context. How many drone strikes were there? without knowing that, you cannot judge anything else. But of course you did. And you judge without knowing the facts. Nice. Got it.

Actually, we have already looked at the numbers and context in this very thread.

We can assume nothing of the sort.
Please provide evidence for your statement.

So instead you will assume that every single one of them is 100% innocent and the thousands of deaths are just mistakes.

So you do think they are criminally stupid. Got it.

What the Saudis do is their business. Even if they get help from the UK/US in technical or other matters.

If by "technical matters" you mean "help intentionally targetting and killing civilians", then it matters very much to the discussion l

That was war. War events and drone operations are not the same thing. If you wish I will explain that to you sometime.

Please explain how the military killing someone with a drone is not a military operation. Lol.

Of course I will ignore your lame and erroneous reasoning. You can try your lawyer tricks on someone else.
Try to control your bias against the West, it will make you a better balanced poster.

Please note that I do not care about your opinion of me.

[skinster]

Ah, yes. Your feelings. It would not be a Ter post without some mention of your feelings.

Indeed. I think Ter thinks he's a very important person, when all he is is an apologist for crimes against humanity.

[Ter]

:lol:

Wow, that hurts!

Indeed. I think Ter thinks he's a very important person, when all he is is an apologist for crimes against humanity.

Sure, and your Muslim friends will use their majority in the UN to make up a definition what crimes against humanity are...
(leave out the rockets from Gaza fired against civilians in Israel, and the stabbings of civilians in Israel, those are NOT crimes in your book)
Your attacks against me and my views are laughable and futile.

If by "technical matters" you mean "help intentionally targetting and killing civilians", then it matters very much to the discussion l

I already told you several times that Western countries do not target innocent civilians on purpose. Only your friends from the other side do that.

Please explain how the military killing someone with a drone is not a military operation. Lol.

Are you "lolling" with your own lack of understanding ?
Where did I state that drone operations are not military?
I said that war and drone operations are not the same thing.
Drone operations are small, pin-pointed, isolated actions.

Anyway, I can't make you stop thinking that Western countries target and kill innocent civilians on purpose but you are very biased and wrong about that.

[noir]

Still wondering why are Arabs so successful in south America? According to Wikipedia, Brazil has 12,000,000 Arab descendants, "Latin America has the largest Arab population outside of the Arab World. Latin America is home to anywhere from 17-25 to 30 million people of Arab descent, that's more than any other diaspora region in the world", and we don't hear any troubles there. What they are doing different? Of course SA has no welfare system like in Europe and everyone obliges to work. They have no time for incitement. Also, SA is not multiculturalist paradise with intrinsic white guilt that encourage PC and endless postcolonial grievances.

Another reason: "The primary reason why Arabs have become so powerful in relation to other groups in Latin America is race. People seem to forget that Arabs are basically 'white' people in South America. In South America, you have indigenous groups (native Americans like the Quechua) and blacks that make up most of the population. You then have high ranking minorities of European heritage and Arabs (often referred to as Turks as they immigrated during the Ottoman days). European racial dynamics still exist in Latin American politics which has historically been dominated by Europeans rather than natives or freed black slaves." Link


The Enduring Success of Latin American Politicians of Arab Origin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 032bd1dc9f

[Godstud]

Of course SA has no welfare system like in Europe and everyone obliges to work. They have no time for incitement. Also, SA is not multiculturalist paradise with intrinsic white guilt that encourage PC and endless postcolonial grievances.

Please post a source to support such an idiotic statement. You pulling some stupid idea out of your ass, isn't a basis for coming to an idiotic conclusion like this.

Incidentally, we have Muslims and people of Arabic descent in Canada, and have no such problems, so stick that in your pipe and smoke it!

[Suntzu]

Still wondering why are Arabs so successful in south America? According to Wikipedia, Brazi has 12,000,000 Arab descendants, "Latin America has the largest Arab population outside of the Arab World. Latin America is home to anywhere from 17-25 to 30 million people of Arab descent, that's more than any other diaspora region in the world", and we don't hear any troubles there. What they are doing different? Of course SA has no welfare system like in Europe and everyone obliges to work. They have no time for incitement. Also, SA is not multiculturalist paradise with intrinsic white guilt that encourage PC and endless postcolonial grievances.

Another reason: "The primary reason why Arabs have become so powerful in relation to other groups in Latin America is race. People seem to forget that Arabs are basically 'white' people in South America. In South America, you have indigenous groups (native Americans like the Quechua) and blacks that make up most of the population. You then have high ranking minorities of European heritage and Arabs (often referred to as Turks as they immigrated during the Ottoman days). European racial dynamics still exist in Latin American politics which has historically been dominated by Europeans rather than natives or freed black slaves." Link


The Enduring Success of Latin American Politicians of Arab Origin

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 032bd1dc9f

CIA World Factbook is generally a reliable source. Islam doesn't even rate a mention, way less than 1%. No mention of Arabs, Lebonese or otherwise.

[Godstud]

Noir's statement is what I am disputing, not the rest of it. Pay attention.

[AFAIK]

Intent means NOTHING. Results do.

I cannot agree with you at all.
Intent is everything.

At the top of the previous page you stated that an arsonist who inadvertently kills someone whilst burning down their business is guilty of murder. Now you say that drone operatives who know that their bombs will kill innocent civilians before they pull the trigger are not guilty of murdering the people they fire upon.

How do you square that circle?

Drones are used because the terrorists stay in places like Yemen, NW Pakistan, Afghanistan, Somalia, the Sinai and so on, places where they cannot be caught by other means.

That's not true we used to arrest them and send them to GitMo.

[Godstud]

Cmon, AFAIK. You know it's a lot easier to just blow up a lot of civilians and hope one of them is a terrorist. That's the American Way!

USA! USA! USA!

[Suntzu]

USA! USA! USA! Kill 'em all, let God sort 'em out!

[Godstud]

See that? Suntzu's a good bloodthirsty American. Why can't you be more like him, Ter, instead of pretending?

[Ter]

At the top of the previous page you stated that an arsonist who inadvertently kills someone whilst burning down their business is guilty of murder.

The initial burning of the business you gave as an example was already a criminal action because the abortion clinic was a legal entity. All deaths resulting from a criminal act are considered murder.
Firing a drone at a terrorist, with the intention of killing only the terrorist, is not a criminal action.
The operator of a drone will not fire a missile if he/she knows in advance that civilians are together with the terrorist.

That's not true we used to arrest them and send them to GitMo.

That was only possible after the US invaded the terrorist's country of abode.
Yemen, Pakistan, Somalia and other places are areas where arresting the terrorists is not possible unless the US conducts a massive "boots on the ground" operation. And that would definitely result in many casualties.

You guys are really adamant at trying to condemn your own side. No wonder the West is not doing well at the moment. Enfin, proceed with further hypotheticals and false accusations.

[Pants-of-dog]

I already told you several times that Western countries do not target innocent civilians on purpose. Only your friends from the other side do that.

Yes, you keep repeating your claim, and not supporting it with evidence.

You also ignore evidence that is presented to you.

Are you "lolling" with your own lack of understanding ?
Where did I state that drone operations are not military?
I said that war and drone operations are not the same thing.
Drone operations are small, pin-pointed, isolated actions.

So we agree that they are all military operations, and we have already seen that they kill thousands of civilians, so logically, we must assume that the US is currently involved in military operations that kill thousans of civilians.

Anyway, I can't make you stop thinking that Western countries target and kill innocent civilians on purpose but you are very biased and wrong about that.

Then feel free to prove me wrong.

[AFAIK]

The invasion of Iraq was illegal therefor all subsequent deaths are murders.
The raid on Bin Laden was illegal since it violated the sovereignty of Pakistan ergo murder.

The US uses drones because it is fighting a coward's war. It knows that if it puts soldiers in harms way public opinion will turn against military action almost immediately. Military planners calculate to the individual how many casualties it can suffer before protests mobilise.

Btw, my side opposed the war since forever.

[Suntzu]

The concept of total warfare was invented by Gen Sherman.

[noir]

CIA World Factbook is generally a reliable source. Islam doesn't even rate a mention, way less than 1%. No mention of Arabs, Lebonese or otherwise.

It may hint that these Arabs are Christians in their majority or converted to Christianity like former Argentinian president, Carlos Menem whose parents were Syrian Muslims.

Carlos Saúl Menem was born in 1930 in Anillaco, a small town in the mountainous north of La Rioja Province, Argentina. His parents, Saúl Menem and Mohibe Akil, were Syrian nationals from Yabroud who had emigrated to Argentina.

Menem, the son of Syrian immigrants, was born into the Muslim faith but converted to Roman Catholicism, the official religion of Argentina, to achieve his political aspirations.