[Blondie]

Anybody seeing parallels between our dear old Trump and kebab's Erdogan?

Both seem to be that great mixture of an unstable personality spiced with a keen dislike for dissent.

[Thompson_NCL]

Anybody seeing parallels between our dear old Trump and kebab's Erdogan?

Both seem to be that great mixture of an unstable personality spiced with a keen dislike for dissent.

No, I'm not. When Trump starts locking up journalists, academics and soldiers en masse, get back to me. In the meanwhile, this is just a daft comparison to make.

[Blondie]

No, I'm not. When Trump starts locking up journalists, academics and soldiers en masse, get back to me. In the meanwhile, this is just a daft comparison to make.

Oh, we won't get to that, thanks to our political system being much more robust than Turkey's. But, if you were to switch the two, and placed Trump in Turkey, he would be doing more than simply attacking the media at every turn.

[The Sabbaticus]

You are the one who should get a grip mate, I don't think anything will happen nor did I claim anything. I'm just pointing out the rather pathetic, spineless and hypocritical actions of the Dutch, Germans and Swiss for issues that don't matter and should not concern them like for example internal Turkish politics, when these same guys are pitifully silent when it comes to matters that should concern them like EU security for example. I can see a whole bunch of outrage from guys like you who try to defend the indefensible such as the deportation of an allied Minister for no reason whatsoever and your absolute silence in matters that actually matter.

She was told not to come, yet she persisted. Her diplomatic status did not accord her the right, nor did she have a visa. She used several different 'motorcades' to conceal her whereabouts while she was illegally crossing the Dutch-German border in order to travel to the Turkish embassy inside of Dutch territory.

They tried to get the previous 'minister' into the country by issuing threats. The Turkish have conducted themselves as underhanded and dishonourable cravens (as per usual). Not only that, but they would have used those gatherings to influence the Dutch elections directly by exhorting Turkish voters to vote for Denk (a Dutch crypto-AKP offshoot).

If they had tried this with Greece you would have been waving a Greek flag on the Turkish embassy, which you and your cohorts had stormed as soon as this had transpired.

[noemon]

If they had tried this with Greece you would have been waving a Greek flag on the Turkish embassy, which you and your cohorts had stormed as soon as this had transpired.

This would never happen in Greece because Greece would never deny entry to a Turkish minister visiting the country, despite the fact that Greece has real issues with Turkey unlike the fake ones you pretend to have. And even if it had happened I would not be doing that anyway.

[The Sabbaticus]

Am I to believe that Turkish ministers would be able to 'come and go' as they please in Greece without going through the proper channels first and meeting visa requirements? Also, I seem to recall another incident in a Balkan country where a Turkish ambassador (or someone on that level) was declared 'persona non grata' due to his Islamist activities and meddling in the internal politics of the country.

The Turks should have chosen a more opportune time (like next weekend), instead they tried to browbeat the 'Nazi relic orange' nation into submission right before an election.

[Heisenberg]

I don't see why any country should feel that it is required to hold campaign rallies on behalf of the ruling party of another country. Everyone who wants to hold a rally or protest has to apply for a permit, and the government has the right to refuse them. The referendum in question is designed to legitimise Erdogan turning Turkey into a dictatorship. Why anyone should pander to this is beyond me.

As for Turkey being "allied" - this goes both ways. If they are an "ally" and we are required to "respect" that, they should respect us. Accusing western European countries of being "Nazis" and threatening to organise riots/flood Europe with migrants if he doesn't get his way, is not the sort of "respect" to which allies are entitled. Erdogan can get fucked.

On a broader level, I must confess to finding this all quite funny, given that it comes after at least a decade of European leaders sucking up to Erdogan and lavishing him with praise for his "moderate Islamism", only to suddenly realise they've helped create a monster. In that context, I suppose at least noemon is being consistent in bending the knee to the Sultan.

[noemon]

Am I to believe that Turkish ministers would be able to 'come and go' as they please in Greece without going through the proper channels first and meeting visa requirements?

I highly doubt Turkish ministers require visas to travel, I am under the impression that they do indeed come as they please and if there is anything it's probably some diplomatic notification.

On a broader level, I must confess to finding this all quite funny, given that it comes after at least a decade of European leaders sucking up to Erdogan and lavishing him with praise for his "moderate Islamism", only to suddenly realise they've helped create a monster. In that context, I suppose at least noemon is being consistent in bending the knee to the Sultan.

This has become quite ridiculous now. I am the only one in here consistent with criticising Erdogan and Turkey, but I do not see any reason to justify these stupid Dutch actions denying entry to a Turkish minister and then deporting her for no reason whatsoever. It's silly and it's stupid. Europe & Turkey have real issues and this whole thing cheapens European diplomacy and also has the opposite effect of the intended one. If the Dutch and the Germans were hoping to damage Erdogan's reputation, they have not achieved it with this silliness. I am simply not your typical nationalist that will jump on any bandwagon as long as it is politically expedient and for "my side" this is politically expedient indeed.

[Heisenberg]

I'm only ribbing you, noemon.

As it happens, I agree with you in one respect: it's hard to take the German and Dutch governments seriously in their posturing, and this is largely for show. But then, the Turkish government is acting in exactly the same way. Erdogan, when he isn't imprisoning journalists, funding ISIS and manufacturing fake coups, is basically a professional clown. His "Nazi" jibes also cheapen European diplomacy, as do barely-veiled threats. It's not like Turkey has any moral high ground here.

[noemon]

I'm only ribbing you, noemon.
As it happens, I agree with you in one respect: it's hard to take the German and Dutch governments seriously in their posturing, and this is largely for show. But then, the Turkish government is acting in exactly the same way. Erdogan, when he isn't imprisoning journalists, funding ISIS and manufacturing fake coups, is basically a professional clown. His "Nazi" jibes also cheapen European diplomacy, as do barely-veiled threats. It's not like Turkey has any moral high ground here.

Of course he is a clown and it's not just him, the Kemalist opposition is even worse than he is, and that is the sad part that this clown has been given reason to play the victim.

[The Sabbaticus]

I highly doubt Turkish ministers require visas to travel, I am under the impression that they do indeed come as they please and if there is anything it's probably some diplomatic notification.

The argument given was that her diplomatic passport (which gives visa-free status in The Netherlands) was invalid in light of her travelling in the capacity of a citizen and her not being on official state business in The Netherlands. This would have been different if she was the prime minister, president or minister of foreign affairs. But these too can be denied, as entry permission is an exclusively sovereign affair.

Similarly, the Turkish are now refusing the Dutch ambassador entry into the country without legitimate cause.

But you're right, it's all very contrived and largely an electoral ploy by the current prime minister Rutte, but it's still an amusing spectacle. And the petty-minded hauteur of the Turks in this matter is as always distasteful and obscene. They could have timed this better.

It's all very suspicious.

[Frollein]

Suspicious? It's blatantly clear that Erdogan and his ilk help Rutte to sharpen his fake-right profile against Wilders, while they get a free victim card in return which they can then cash in with their rabidly nationalistic electorate.

I just hope the Dutch people will see through this much too transparent agreement and vote for Wilders.

[noemon]

Similarly, the Turkish are now refusing the Dutch ambassador entry into the country without legitimate cause.

That this Turkish government is a pile of idiots goes without say but that does not mean that we should go down to their level.

I do believe that the Turkish government requires a stern message from the EU for its treatment of journalists, its revisionist policies in the Aegean and its aggressive posture but it needs to be coordinated to be effective. I do not agree with this cheap spat.

[Vanasalus]

I'm sorry but can you give a source for German/Dutch/Swedish politicians holding "election rallies" in Turkey?

I personally saw a Stockholm mayoral candidate holding an election rally in central Anatolian township of Kulu sometime during 90s.

Here are some photos of Swedish prime minister visiting the same town in 2009:





Here is a Hurriyet daily news link for Swedish election activities in Kulu/Turkey in 2014.

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/isvec-seciml ... i-27093133

The text is Turkish, yet with the help of google translate, you might get what it is about.

It's very simple: the situation has changed. It's not just about the rise of the far-right in all of Europe - that was a reaction against the increasingly radicalized Muslim minorities and the various troubles they raised in their host countries. Parallel societies with parallel judiciaries, mosques with Imams preaching against infidels, against democracy, women's rights and another host of core Western values, no-go areas, you name it. The terrorist attacks are just the cherry on top. You worked hard at making yourself undesirable in Europe, so don't whine now. Did you think this would go on indefinitely?

You might like having a good assimilation, others might offer integration, yet from individual point of view, no individual is obliged to follow any dictations from anybody regarding to their lifestyle. What you can expect from them is to respect laws. Nothing more nothing less. Of course, you have the option of electing a neo-nazi party into power, and convert your country into something that can dictate lifestyles to its residents. Bottom-line is: you can either have your cake, or eat it, but you cannot do these two at the same time.

Perhaps because no German politician would compare cultural assmilation with genocide and exhort expat Germans in Turkey not to learn the language and remind them that their first loyalty lies with Germany and not Turkey, and that they should disregard Turkish values and customs in favour of their own? Perhaps you should listen to some of the speeches Erdogan has given in Germany in the last years. I'm sure you can find them all on youtube.

The same idiotic punchlines. The truth is: what bothers fascists like you is the very presence of organic assimilation/integration. Not the lack of it. The first generation of immigrants lived and worked in Germany for 30 years doing low pay jobs, and no German bothered about their inability to speak German. No German government did anything to assimilate/integrate them. No German bothered about their isolated lives in ghettos. It was not a problem at all. Turks became a problem when 2nd and 3rd generation of those illiterate immigrants come up, speaking German, opening businesses, graduating from universities, in short, mingling with the rest of the society.

Ironically, it is the Turkish government that is blaring all over social media that they want to teach the Netherlands a lesson. And don't give me that crap that it'd be our fault again if your electorate fucks up and gives that Hitler-wannabe his Enabling Act. Grow the fuck up!

I did not say it would be your fault. Not at all. I just elaborated on how witless you continental Europeans are when it comes to international politics. I stand by my eloboration.

You mean those governments act out of self-interest, just like Erdogan? Shocking! Yeah, I guess when Erdogan puts appeasement of foreign individuals over his domestic policies, then we can talk about doing the same for him.

What I expect from governments is not to act out of self-interest, but out of national interest. In my humble opinion, no sane person with an average intelligence or above can claim that the recent actions of German and Dutch governments served the national interests of German or Dutch people.

[noir]

@Vanasalus

You miss the threads about Sweden.

[Rugoz]

I personally saw a Stockholm mayoral candidate holding an election rally in central Anatolian township of Kulu sometime during 90s.

Thanks.

No German bothered about their isolated lives in ghettos. It was not a problem at all. Turks became a problem when 2nd and 3rd generation of those illiterate immigrants come up, speaking German, opening businesses, graduating from universities, in short, mingling with the rest of the society.

Statistically Turks do not integrate well into European societies (crime, educational attainment, poverty), though there are worse immigrants, like those from MENA countries. If only they would graduate from universities at the same rate as Germans! The first generation didn't have a problem with their low social status since for them it was a step up from their previous life.

[noir]

@Vanasalus

The same idiotic punchlines. The truth is: what bothers fascists like you is the very presence of organic assimilation/integration. Not the lack of it. The first generation of immigrants lived and worked in Germany for 30 years doing low pay jobs, and no German bothered about their inability to speak German. No German government did anything to assimilate/integrate them. No German bothered about their isolated lives in ghettos. It was not a problem at all. Turks became a problem when 2nd and 3rd generation of those illiterate immigrants come up, speaking German, opening businesses, graduating from universities, in short, mingling with the rest of the society.

Is it accurate assessment? Cause this is how historians asses what happened also to the Jews after emancipation. As long as they were in the ghettoes the hate against them was contained its become lethal when they assimilated. But the Muslim situation it's different, the Europeans went a long way to accommodate with "multiculturalism", it's the Muslims who don't want to integrate.

[Oxymoron]

Not only should the Turks be thrown out of Europe, but they must be forced out of Constantinople.

[noir]

Middle Eastern scenes in the heart of Europe

@The Sabbaticus, is it Dutch or French flag?

[noemon]

Why is Turkey in a row with the Netherlands?
Both Turks and Europeans can point to double standards.

A Dutch refusal to allow entry to Turkey’s Family and Social Policy Minister, Fatma Betül Sayan Kaya, has taken relations between Europe and Turkey to new levels of hostility. It also exposes the growing tensions Turkey has with the rest of the continent.

Turkey is experiencing an ugly referendum campaign, in which Recep Tayyip Erdoğan seeks to empower his office of President with a legislative basis for the authoritarian structure he has already built. The campaign is also taking place among Turkey's large diaspora. The Dutch decision was the latest effort to deny international rights of assembly to a pro-government, “Yes” campaign that has bullied, imprisoned and intimidated “No” voters back in Turkey.

The result has been tit-for-tat conflict. With police using baton strikes to disperse a crowd of protesters in Rotterdam, in Istanbul a man meanwhile broke into the Dutch consulate and replaced the flag of the Netherlands with that of Turkey. At a time when nationalist brinkmanship between states seemingly becomes more commonplace, it is hard to imagine a more apt illustration of a breakdown in international norms and civility.

Turks are watching graphic images from Rotterdam, where pro-government Dutch Turkish protesters clashed with police, hit with batons and bitten by attack dogs. Germany has denied permission for a rally attended by President Erdoğan. There is similar uncertainty over rallies in Austria and Denmark. For many Turks, the scenes have confirmed suspicions that European nations see them and their compatriots as lower status.

Whatever the intent, there is no doubting that this humiliation feeds the very sense of Turkish exceptionalism that has been the bread and butter of the entire Erdoğan era. Just as Hillary Clinton calling a quarter of the US electorate “deplorables” helped recast Donald Trump as their protector, and sanctions against Russia gave Vladimir Putin something to blame his ills on, the Turkish protests have once again been used to ennoble the censored and shame the censor.

There are many valid grounds on which the Erdoğan regime might be prohibited from hosting rallies on European soil. The regime denies liberals, democrats and human rights defenders the same rights in Turkey. But this message is not being stated loud or clear. In Austria, a rally was cancelled on the grounds of fire regulations. Germany cancelled the rallies of some ministers while accepting others.

Turkish media, all of it now Erdoğan-controlled, has dutifully reported images of Turkish protesters kicking back at Dutch police, and presented it as a proud triumph for Turkey and its leader. Perhaps the most nuanced response from Europe has arguably been that of Cem Özdemir, Turkish-German co-leader of the German Green Party, who has argued that a right to demonstrate in Germany should be inherently linked to the frequently flouted right to demonstrate in Turkey.

On a broader level, controversy around the rallies also illustrates the complacency of EU countries regarding Turkish immigration. The German word for its Turkish workers, “Gastarbeiter”, is arguably the greatest clue to the failure on these terms. Translated as “guest worker”, this denotes a 2m-strong workforce windfall, as important to 20th century Germany as that of workers from the former colonies was to Britain. However, this population was never intended to permanently settle. The Erdoğan regime has not shied away from associating the protest spat with legitimate concerns about European Turks being treated as second-class citizens. The conflicts underlines the fact that European countries treat Turkish communities only as cheap labour.

In this respect, the silencing of protest will be a bitter pill for those Turks, who resent, even hate, Erdoğan far more than any nationalist of Western Europe will ever understand.

European authorities have been blinded to the rise of pro-Erdoğan political cells within Germany, the Netherlands, and Austria, where Ankara is aggressively supporting faith networks and community groups. In so doing, Erdoğan’s AKP party has a means of mobilising the enormous and comparatively wealthy constituency of Turkish voters around continental Europe.

Some onlookers will conclude that this demonstrates the wisdom of pulling up the drawbridge with Turkey. But the escalation itself points to the failure of leaving Erdoğan to his own devices. Having grown up poor and in rough neighbourhoods of Istanbul, the Turkish President has an intuitive knack for realpolitik and understands all too well the bargaining power he enjoys over Europe as a result of his ability to control the flow of Syrian refugee populations.

Although some within the Turkish state, and even within the AKP, will see clearly that Erdoğan’s escalation with the Dutch as a liability, his rapport with the party’s rank-and-file, both inside Turkey and without, remains untroubled. A youth branch of the AKP stabbed and squeezed oranges in one protest against the Dutch and its national colours, a style of politics that is at once juvenile but menacing.

For all its ridiculousness, what this should make plain is the commitment of Erdoğan’s acolytes. A decade ago, online communities who now mobilise for Donald Trump were creating “google bombs” by skewing search suggestions with synchronised questions about Zionists and a New World Order. Other anti-liberal movements have a similar long and determined history. Such movements are simultaneously nationalist but also very borderless, as European authorities have just discovered in the case of Turkey.