Battle of Berkeley Proves Modern Left's Black Flag Movement Is Failing - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14798209
jakell wrote:Antifa, especially the black bloc wargamers, are a result of the fairly successful Marxist infiltration of the Anarchist scene around the early 80's (hence the lingering post-punk flavour) which is now starting to wear a bit thin.
Marxists have no allegiance to them though, apart from needing useful idiots, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are considering ways to compromise the 'Patriot' crowd. A possible way is to use to use the new youthful edgyness that has appeared amongst conservatism, and use a version of the Anarchist Entryism model. Good luck with that.


I see no particular reason to suspect that there are secretly Marxists masterminding anything.

The Black Blocs aren't really compatible with Marxism. So far as tactics are concerned, Marxists want a giant class uprising. The Paris Commune, Russian Revolution, Chinese Revolution, and even Easter 1916 are our models. The idea is that the people become class conscious and rise. When it is a group of masked individuals, the movement stops there. The people become alienated from the movement and cannot participate or direct it.

These types of anarchist tactics are condemned by Marxists for the same reason terrorism is condemned by Marxists, which again, is the alienation of the people from the struggle. We would aim, as much as possible, for the revolution to be part of everyone's struggle that we can simply walk into the sources of power with the guards opening the doors for us, like Lenin did in the Winter Palace. This is not always possible of course, but this is the goal of a mass movement of the people: something the anarchists fundamentally rejec.

Marx wrote:This latest Fenian exploit [an act of individual terrorism] in Clerkenwell is a great folly. The London masses, who have shown much sympathy for Ireland, will be enraged by it and driven into the arms of the government party. One cannot expect the London proletarians to let themselves be blown up for the benefit of Fenian emissaries. Secret, melodramatic conspiracies of this kind are, in general, more or less doomed to failure.


Lenin wrote:First, that party, which rejected Marxism, stubbornly refused (or, it might be more correct to say: was unable) to understand the need for a strictly objective appraisal of the class forces and their alignment, before taking any political action. Second, this party considered itself particularly "revolutionary", or "Left", because of its recognition of individual terrorism, assassination—something that we Marxists emphatically rejected.


Lenin wrote:The Congress decisively rejects terrorism, i.e., the system of individual political assassinations, as being a method of political struggle which is most inexpedient at the present time, diverting the best forces from the urgent and imperatively necessary work of organisation and agitation, destroying contact between the revolutionaries and the masses of the revolutionary classes of the population, and spreading both among the revolutionaries themselves and the population in general utterly distorted ideas of the aims and methods of struggle against the autocracy.


Lenin wrote:Terrorists bow to the spontaneity of the passionate indignation of intellectuals, who lack the ability or opportunity to connect the revolutionary struggle and the working-class movement into an integral whole. It is difficult indeed for those who have lost their belief, or who have never believed, that this is possible, to find some outlet for their indignation and revolutionary energy other than terror.


Lenin wrote: At a time when the revolutionaries are short of the forces and means to lead the masses, who are already rising, an appeal to resort to such terrorist acts as the organisation of attempts on the lives of ministers by individuals and groups that are not known to one another means, not only thereby breaking off work among the masses, but also introducing downright disorganisation into that work.

We, revolutionaries, “are accustomed to huddling together in timid knots,” we read in the April 3 leaflet, “and even [N. B.] the new, bold spirit that has appeared during the last two or three years has so far done more to raise the sentiments of the crowd than of individuals.” These words unintentionally express much that is true. And it is this very truth that deals a smashing rebuff to the propagandists of terrorism. From this truth every thinking socialist draws the conclusion that it is necessary to use group action more energetically, boldly, and harmoniously. The Socialist-Revolutionaries, however, conclude: “Shoot, elusive individual, for the knot of people, alas, is still a long way off, and besides there are soldiers against the knot.” This really defies all reason, gentlemen!


Trotsky wrote:But the disarray introduced into the ranks of the working masses themselves by a terrorist attempt is much deeper. If it is enough to arm oneself with a pistol in order to achieve one’s goal, why the efforts of the class struggle? If a thimbleful of gunpowder and a little chunk of lead is enough to shoot the enemy through the neck, what need is there for a class organisation? If it makes sense to terrify highly placed personages with the roar of explosions, where is the need for the party? Why meetings, mass agitation and elections if one can so easily take aim at the ministerial bench from the gallery of parliament?

In our eyes, individual terror is inadmissible precisely because it belittles the role of the masses in their own consciousness, reconciles them to their powerlessness, and turns their eyes and hopes towards a great avenger and liberator who some day will come and accomplish his mission. The anarchist prophets of the ‘propaganda of the deed’ can argue all they want about the elevating and stimulating influence of terrorist acts on the masses. Theoretical considerations and political experience prove otherwise. The more ‘effective’ the terrorist acts, the greater their impact, the more they reduce the interest of the masses in self-organisation and self-education. But the smoke from the confusion clears away, the panic disappears, the successor of the murdered minister makes his appearance, life again settles into the old rut, the wheel of capitalist exploitation turns as before; only the police repression grows more savage and brazen. And as a result, in place of the kindled hopes and artificially aroused excitement comes disillusionment and apathy.


Che wrote:It is necessary to distinguish clearly between sabotage, a revolutionary and highly effective method of warfare, and terrorism, a measure that is generally ineffective and indiscriminate in its results, since it often makes victims of innocent people and destroys a large number of lives that would be valuable to the revolution. Terrorism should be considered a valuable tactic when it is used to put to death some noted leader of the oppressing forces well known for his cruelty, his efficiency in repression, or other quality that makes his elimination useful. But the killing of persons of small importance is never advisable, since it brings on an increase of reprisals, including deaths.


Castro wrote:Terror has always been an instrument of the worst enemies of Mankind bent on suppressing and crushing the peoples’ struggle for freedom. It can never be the instrument of a truly noble and just cause.


Connolly wrote:Here, then, is the immense difference between the Socialist Republicans and our friends the physical force men. The latter, by stifling all discussions of principles, earn the passive and fleeting commendation of the unthinking multitude; the former, by insisting upon a thorough understanding of their basic principles, do not so readily attract the multitude, but do attract and hold the more thoughtful amongst them. It is the difference betwixt a mob in revolt and an army in preparation. The mob who cheer a speaker referring to the hopes of a physical force movement would, in the very hour of apparent success, be utterly disorganised and divided by the passage through the British Legislature of any trumpery Home Rule Bill. The army of class-conscious workers organising under the banner of the Socialist Republican Party, strong in their knowledge of economic truth and firmly grounded in their revolutionary principles, would remain entirely unaffected by any such manoeuvre and, knowing it would not change their position as a subject class, would still press forward, resolute and undivided, with their faces set towards their only hope of emancipation – the complete control by the working-class democracy of all the powers of National Government.
#14798211
People combed through the footage of the porn actress and found she was wielding a bottle as a weapon, wearing brass knuckles and had posted to Facebook that she was going to the rally to "bring back 100 Nazi scalps." CBS interviewed her and let her give her sad story.

Sadly this is escalating, Antifa should be declared a terrorist organization and its sad that no action will be taken before they kill someone.
#14798213
Hongwu wrote:People combed through the footage of the porn actress and found she was wielding a bottle as a weapon, wearing brass knuckles and had posted to Facebook that she was going to the rally to "bring back 100 Nazi scalps." CBS interviewed her and let her give her sad story.


What? Who?
#14798222
I hope you realize that political "liberalism" in the US has morphed into the far left wing to a large degree.


Nonsense. The US, for all intent and purpose, has no significant "far left wing" movement.

True liberalism hardly exists any longer in the political arena. Many of today's so-called liberals despise our Constitution to the point of where they now have to be classified as far left wing, sometimes even anarchists such as those on display at Berkeley, repressing free speech and rioting.


How about just bullshit. You are talking mostly about democrats and they are a center right party. Even the Bernie followers are center right.

Here is the deal. We are seeing a significant shift to the left. Just ask just about every republican legislator who has had a town hall. I mean FGS. The republicans voted 60 times to repeal the PPACA when Obama was president and they could not pass it when they had control of the house, senate and presidency. And here is a news flash for you. Did you see how fast they folded on this issue? Why? Because they got way right of too many people and could see themselves loosing their jobs in the mid-terms.

So we can pick some nonevent like Berkley and crow about it. It is meaningless.
#14798224
I see. The obsessiveness of the right and the center to focus on these human stories is odd to me.

In the same vein, I do wish there were a Red Gaurd to advance the position and deal with this scum. The Black Block is problematic for the same reason that anarchists themselves are problematic.

Ah well. The right spent a century liquidating us as a force, and now we can watch the right erupt in violence and conspiracy theories as they rip themselves apart. Perhaps our day will come soon...
#14798248
Hong Wu wrote:People combed through the footage of the porn actress and found she was wielding a bottle as a weapon, wearing brass knuckles and had posted to Facebook that she was going to the rally to "bring back 100 Nazi scalps." CBS interviewed her and let her give her sad story.

Sadly this is escalating, Antifa should be declared a terrorist organization and its sad that no action will be taken before they kill someone.


Even without all these details, she was there in the fray looking like any other dreadlocked 'warrior', male or female and, as she is likely to benefit from publicity and get respect from her peers, I have little sympathy. I hope she will have learned a lesson here and will take more care in future.

I'm not sure if this is going to 'escalate' much. This may have burst the bubble for quite a few of the antifa 'undecideds' (ones who were there anyway), leaving a much smaller hardcore element. I think antifa can rely upon a new crop of kids coming up through school as 'cannon fodder', but I think their ideology is becoming indistinct.
#14798252
maz wrote:https://www.rt.com/viral/384258-richard ... ashington/

And what's the deal with the left, who are out there protesting stupid tax returns and beating up anti-war protesters instead of protesting the possibility of nuclear WW3 with Russia?



The left has absolutely nothing to stand on. This is all politics trying to discredit Trump ahead of his tax plan. The left is so far lost they want to punish the entire country because they lost the election.
#14798301
The Immortal Goon wrote:I see. The obsessiveness of the right and the center to focus on these human stories is odd to me.

In the same vein, I do wish there were a Red Gaurd to advance the position and deal with this scum. The Black Block is problematic for the same reason that anarchists themselves are problematic.

Ah well. The right spent a century liquidating us as a force, and now we can watch the right erupt in violence and conspiracy theories as they rip themselves apart. Perhaps our day will come soon...

They focus on her because she was interviewed on national television about her victimhood, so people got to debunking it.
#14798302
Drlee wrote:Nonsense. The US, for all intent and purpose, has no significant "far left wing" movement.



How about just bullshit. You are talking mostly about democrats and they are a center right party. Even the Bernie followers are center right.

Here is the deal. We are seeing a significant shift to the left. Just ask just about every republican legislator who has had a town hall. I mean FGS. The republicans voted 60 times to repeal the PPACA when Obama was president and they could not pass it when they had control of the house, senate and presidency. And here is a news flash for you. Did you see how fast they folded on this issue? Why? Because they got way right of too many people and could see themselves loosing their jobs in the mid-terms.

So we can pick some nonevent like Berkley and crow about it. It is meaningless.

How do you explain the persistent presence of these people in large, unorganized masses if there is no far left movement in the United States? Obviously it's not organized but these are the same people who were at Occupy Wall Street.
#14798307
Fighting Nazis is not exclusively a far-left activity.

Though we do it best. After a century of centre and far right beating us down, the right is rising and the only opposition are centre-left bourgeois kids in black sweatshirts that the far right is demanding we act like hysterical victims about :lol:

I'm sure DrLee remembers a time when there was a far left. And the FBI shot them. Like the Pinkertons before that, and the National Guards before that, and state militias before that.

Were down now, back to a haunting spectre. But still here and unstoppable. It makes me pleased that the right is still so frightened by our legacy that they're consuming their own centre-right by declaring them "leftists," for no reason.

We're all accelerationists now.

Image
#14798319
Were down now, back to a haunting spectre. But still here and unstoppable. It makes me pleased that the right is still so frightened by our legacy that they're consuming their own centre-right by declaring them "leftists," for no reason.


I believe that the far left will come roaring back sooner rather than later. The perfect storm (I hate that term but it works here) will be:

Increased concentration of wealth in few people.

Degradation of basic human services by government.

The end of employment as we know it. (Internet shopping, efficient manufacture and increased automation.)

When the left emerges it will happen very quickly. It will be a youth movement and there are plenty of folks standing by to run it.
#14798322
Drlee wrote:I believe that the far left will come roaring back sooner rather than later. The perfect storm (I hate that term but it works here) will be:

Increased concentration of wealth in few people.

Degradation of basic human services by government.

The end of employment as we know it. (Internet shopping, efficient manufacture and increased automation.)

When the left emerges it will happen very quickly. It will be a youth movement and there are plenty of folks standing by to run it.


<<< I believe that the far left will come roaring back sooner rather than later. >>>

The far left came roaring back on election night 2008. It met its Waterloo on November 8th 2016.

The far left isn't dead as a door nail, but it's crippled beyond any immediate repair. Most people are now wise to the shenanigans and tricks of the clever propaganda from the left, and simply choose to ignore it or fight against it. The far left is no longer fooling the majority of the people with their lies and deceit.
#14798332
I think the older generations don't realize how politically extreme young people are today. There were hippies etc. in their time but most of them became more moderate because they had jobs, families and careers waiting for them. People today often don't have any of those things and therefore they don't mellow out. The hippies and others went away, the ones in this generation aren't going to.
#14798336
You didn't notice how many times Obama attempted to subvert the US Constitution? You don't realize that's what far leftists do?

Proof that ignorance is bliss. :lol:


Give us some examples.

President Obama was the least liberal democratic president since 1950.

Get off of Fox News and take a political science class. :roll:

I think the older generations don't realize how politically extreme young people are today. There were hippies etc. in their time but most of them became more moderate because they had jobs, families and careers waiting for them. People today often don't have any of those things and therefore they don't mellow out. The hippies and others went away, the ones in this generation aren't going to.


What older generations understand that young people don't is that young people are almost always more progressive than their elders. And you think this is something new?

AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID BUT YOU IGNORED:
DrLee a couple of posts ago:

Increased concentration of wealth in few people.

Degradation of basic human services by government.

The end of employment as we know it. (Internet shopping, efficient manufacture and increased automation.)

When the left emerges it will happen very quickly. It will be a youth movement and there are plenty of folks standing by to run it.


The last is WHY they may not get much more moderate as they age. They are facing a bleak future. But they are still kids.

In the primaries people under 30 voted for Sanders two to one over Trump and Clinton combined. Unfortunately, like the children they are, when their candidate did not win they stayed home in big numbers. That said. Trump took 38% of the youth vote in the election.

I sincerely hope that young people do take to the streets and take over the government. They are the only hope for our system. The Republicans are systematically dismantling our constitutional protections in favor of their corporate masters.
#14798376
Drlee wrote:Give us some examples.

President Obama was the least liberal democratic president since 1950.

Get off of Fox News and take a political science class. :roll:



What older generations understand that young people don't is that young people are almost always more progressive than their elders. And you think this is something new?

AS I HAVE ALREADY SAID BUT YOU IGNORED:


The last is WHY they may not get much more moderate as they age. They are facing a bleak future. But they are still kids.

In the primaries people under 30 voted for Sanders two to one over Trump and Clinton combined. Unfortunately, like the children they are, when their candidate did not win they stayed home in big numbers. That said. Trump took 38% of the youth vote in the election.

I sincerely hope that young people do take to the streets and take over the government. They are the only hope for our system. The Republicans are systematically dismantling our constitutional protections in favor of their corporate masters.


<<< President Obama was the least liberal democratic president since 1950. >>>

Thanks for the good laugh. Not even 99.9% of Obama lovers would agree with you on that. :lol:

BTW: when young people wake-up and realize that the Democratic Party and Obama left them with a monstrous debt to repay, they are going to turn in droves to the Republican Party and conservative values.
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