Battle of Berkeley Proves Modern Left's Black Flag Movement Is Failing - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

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#14797429
The might makes right power politics side of the left was predicted to be a failing strategy, and it's proving to fail. Did Richard Spencer get punched? Yes, but that was one instant compared to a plethora of retaliation:



The media reported it as an indecisive scuffle between Trump supporters and Antifa supporters, but it's clear the Antifa supporters lost.

This is neither the right way nor a successful strategy to defeat the right. If you think it is, then you're out of touch with reality.

All of this said, it's clear that the true winner is feminism since hardly any women were involved in what happened. A bunch of men who were too hotheaded to have a sense of fraternity went to blows instead of having the decency to talk things out.

The cops stood by while they were getting wiped out too:



Obviously, the passive-aggressive tactic of provoking people to get them into trouble wasn't working either.
#14797724
Not the proudest moment of the old alma mater.

But a large part of the riots come from groups like Antifa and a small collection of insane students. Those guys are assholes who invade the campus from outside.
#14797730
No, "the left" isn't. True liberalism rejects that notion of repressing speech. Segments of it are, of course. There are also segments of conservatives also against "free speech". That doesn't mean that "the right" is anything.
#14797736
Antifa's real 'strength' is in creating crowds of useful idiots through a mixture of online emotional manipulation falling back on a foundation of decades of Marxists occupying the moral and (academic) intellectual high ground.
I've even seen antifa claiming proudly that crowds of high school kids joined in with the Washington antifa confrontation, which they don't seem to see as abusive and rather cowardly, and an echo of the young kids walking out of school after Trump's election.
So, even though they are losing in direct confrontation and direct argumentation, they can still get the numbers.

Sargon has done a pretty good roundup of this event. He doesn't really have a dog on this fight, so his commentary is relatively objective, even so, his style here is markedly less dry (I find him a bit too dry at times) than usual.



Nice comment from 9 hrs ago (relating to the title screen):

"Porn actress gets fisted at Berkeley" News at eleven
Last edited by jakell on 17 Apr 2017 12:07, edited 1 time in total.
#14797755
Zagadka wrote:No, "the left" isn't. True liberalism rejects that notion of repressing speech. Segments of it are, of course. There are also segments of conservatives also against "free speech". That doesn't mean that "the right" is anything.


I hope you realize that political "liberalism" in the US has morphed into the far left wing to a large degree.

True liberalism hardly exists any longer in the political arena. Many of today's so-called liberals despise our Constitution to the point of where they now have to be classified as far left wing, sometimes even anarchists such as those on display at Berkeley, repressing free speech and rioting.
#14797794
NEWSFLASH:

Anarchists suck at organizing!

LATimes wrote:Stewart Rhodes, founder of the citizen militia group known as the Oath Keepers, said he came from Montana with about 50 others to protect Trump supporters. They were joined by bikers and others who vowed to fight members of an anti-fascist group if they crossed police barricades.

“I don’t mind hitting” the counter-demonstrators, Rhodes said. “In fact, I would kind of enjoy it.”

But Rhodes credited Berkeley police for new tactics that mostly kept the two sides apart and “our side chilled and relaxed,” though sporadic fights broke out among both groups throughout the morning and afternoon.

“It’s getting sporty,” said Oath Keeper John Karriman, 59, who is from Missouri and was among the group’s security leaders.

AJ Alegria, 31, of Sacramento said he also came to Berkeley to help defend Trump supporters. He said he pursued a counter-demonstrator down a side street and found himself surrounded by a dozen protesters in black masks who he said attacked him with sticks and pepper spray.

“These people create violence all the time... somebody has to stand up to them,” said Alegria, who was injured in the fight. He was treated by Trump supporters who bandaged his head, washed off the pepper spray and gave him encouragement, saying, “You’ve earned your stripes, bro.”


This does go some way in displaying how effective the right has been though.

Not only do they feel like victims, but even in taking action they cannot see the contradiction in their own stance. The idea of a Black Bloc coming from Oakland to rural Montana and having a march is completely absurd. It would never happen, and the thought is nearly unthinkable.

People from rural Montana and the Deep South going to Berkley to march (or protect a march, implying violence) is not only in the realm of possibility, but also actions that they themselves are taking part in. And yet, from the rhetoric, they feel that they are the victims.

There is also the ignorance in application of any kind of political terms at all into a crude binary that doesn't make much sense. Even in this thread, there's horrifying misuse of the word, "liberal." The United States was founded as a liberal republic.

The far-right has effectively attempted to link liberalism—which represented the ideology of the Founders, Adam Smith, and the Enlightenment in general—with communism. They were not the first to invent such an ideology:

Hitler wrote:The main plank in the National Socialist program is to abolish the liberalistic concept of the individual and the Marxist concept of humanity and to substitute therefore the folk community, rooted in the soil and bound together by the bond of its common blood. A very simple statement; but it involves a principle that has tremendous consequences.


Is this not the same, "main plank," that the far right are supporting in denying, "the liberalistic concepts," they don't like and, "the Marxist concept," they despise?

Is it not telling that, whispered even in this thread, that the insidious Jew is somehow behind the, "left," that had the nerve to be in Berkley when truckloads of rightwingers from Montana came parading into town to crush them?

Nonetheless, they are not fascists even if the movement itself has parallels. It is, however, telling that after a century of repression, assassination, and blacklisting of Marxists, there is nobody to stand up for the left aside from anarchist teenagers that will probably grow up to become lawyers. And that these are the people that need to be suppressed by a national movement of right-wingers to come into what they imagine is the den of evil to suppress.
#14797814
The (international) media is portraying the Berkeley free speech event as a 'tax demo' that was invaded by Trump supporters. :lol: And of course they're portraying that Antifa woman as an innocent "How dare they, she's a woman!" victim, instead of a militant aggressor there to commit serial violent assault.

As for the event itself, these events have become rampant freak circuses. Your average person isn't going to empathise with leather-clad bikers or Trump 'bros' in American flag apparel. Not to mention all the balaclava types with face coverings and Nazi-inspired 'Kekistani' nation flags. The point of the march was completely lost due to the participants on both sides.
#14797823
The Sabbaticus wrote:The (international) media is portraying the Berkeley free speech event as a 'tax demo' that was invaded by Trump supporters. :lol: And of course they're portraying that Antifa woman as an innocent "How dare they, she's a woman!" victim, instead of a militant aggressor there to commit serial violent assault.

As for the event itself, these events have become rampant freak circuses. Your average person isn't going to empathise with leather-clad bikers or Trump 'bros' in American flag apparel. Not to mention all the balaclava types with face coverings and Nazi-inspired 'Kekistani' nation flags. The point of the march was completely lost due to the participants on both sides.


It was pretty predictable how the MSM was going to spin this and I would expect that most thinking people are looking for alternative sources, of which there are several now. It's notable how many 'personalities' are known and available for in-depth comment and analysis on the 'Patriot' (for want of a better word) side, whilst the antifa side are mainly faceless unknowns, who probably wouldn't raise any interest if the did step up. I reckon the 'Left' here will be getting increasingly atomised and demoralised.
I haven't checked out Styxhexenhammer666's analysis yet, that will be my next stop. (ETA: link)

The only 'personality' to emerge on the antifa side will probably be the hairy porn woman who might experience a career boost, it will be interesting to see how feminists play this one. She may turn out to be be the antifa version of Tila Tequila.

Image
Last edited by jakell on 17 Apr 2017 17:30, edited 2 times in total.
#14797825
Zagadka wrote:Eh. Most people on the left are far more sane than that, like most conservatives are more sane than their extremists.


Socially I agree with that. However I stated "political" and I'll stand by my comment on today's political liberals.

I don't see even "extremist" political conservatives trying to stifle free speech like the leftists at Berkeley and elsewhere, especially during the Trump campaign.
#14797829
The protest was organized by a bunch of popular internet alt-right characters, and their keynote speaker, Lauren Southern, isn't even an American, she's Canadian.

This wasn't so much of a free speech rally than a pro-Trump/anti-Trump rally; just a bunch of idiots fighting in the streets for no apparent reason.

Richard Spencer had a true free speech/antiwar rally to protest President Trump's attack on Syria. He was attacked by these idiot thugs who I guess are pro-war.

https://www.rt.com/viral/384258-richard ... ashington/

And what's the deal with the left, who are out there protesting stupid tax returns and beating up anti-war protesters instead of protesting the possibility of nuclear WW3 with Russia?
#14797839
maz wrote:And what's the deal with the left, who are out there protesting stupid tax returns and beating up anti-war protesters instead of protesting the possibility of nuclear WW3 with Russia?


They've been at full throttle since Trump's election protesting him and the alt-right/lite in every way and arena imaginable. So when it comes to actual issues they've lost perspective, plus no-one would take much notice of them anyway, they've been shrill for so long now.
#14797879
maz wrote:This wasn't so much of a free speech rally than a pro-Trump/anti-Trump rally; just a bunch of idiots fighting in the streets for no apparent reason.


Clearly this was supposed to be provocative though. The idea, again, was that the right could go into this kind of a district and invoke this kind of reaction. The anarchists always think that they're doing well by putting up some kind of token struggle without presenting any kind of alternative; which is almost as pathetic as the hippies giving away chocolate as if good feelings will help.

But this was certainly a rally with the specific promise of making propaganda.

Some blogger wrote:Berkeley? — that was the uncontested domain of the Communist Party. They held their party congresses there. Almost every week they gathered their most loyal and active members there. Here one had heard only talk of world revolution and international class solidarity. Here of all places the Trump rally scheduled its next meeting.

It was an open declaration of war. We meant it that way and the opponent understood it that way. Our party members were jubilant. Everything was now at stake. The future of the MAGA movement would be risked boldly and bravely. It was win or lose!

The decisive day of April 14 neared. The communist press outdid itself with blood-thirsty threats. We would face a tough reception, we would not want to come back. At the labor and relief offices, people openly said that we would be beaten to a bloody pulp.

We had no idea of the danger that threatened us then. I myself did not yet know Marxism well enough to foresee the possible consequences. I shrugged my shoulders as I read the dark prose of the red press and awaited expectantly the decisive evening.

Around 8 p.m. we drove in an old rusty car from the city center toward the campus. A cold gray mist hung under a starless sky. Our hearts were bursting with impatience and expectation.

As we drove it was already clear that the evening did not bode well. Groups of dark figures stood on every street corner. They apparently planned to teach our party members a bloody lesson before they even got to the meeting.

Dark masses of people stood outside the Civic Center Park, expressing their rage and hate with loud and impudent threats.

The leader of the protective forces cleared a way for us and reported briefly that the park had been packed since 7:15 a.m. and had been closed by police. About two-thirds of the audience were Red Front fighters. That was what we wanted. There would be a decision. We were ready to give it all we had.

Entering the park, we encountered a warm, stiffling aroma of beer and tobacco. The park was hot. A lively roar of voices filled the park. People were packed in tightly. We reached the podium only with difficulty.

No sooner was I recognized than hundreds of voices filled with rage and revenge thundered in my ears: “Bloodhound! Murderer of workers!” Those were the mildest words they shouted. But a welcoming group of some party members and Alt-Right Men answered with passion. Excited battle cries sounded from the platform. I saw immediately that we were a minority, but a minority determined to fight, and therefore win.

It was still our custom for our leader to chair all of our public meetings. Here too. Tall as a tree he stood up front and asked for silence with his upraised arm. That was easier said than done. Mocking laughter was the answer. Insults flew toward the platform from every corner of the park. People growled and screamed and raged. There were world revolutionaries scattered about who apparently had gained the courage they needed by drinking. It was impossible to quiet the park. The "class-conscious proletariat" had not come to discuss but to fight, to break things up, to put an end to the Fascist specter with callused workers’ fists.

We were not uncertain, even for a moment. We also knew that if the enemy did not succeed this time in what he had threatened, the future success of the movement was assured.

Fifteen or twenty men stood before the platform in uniforms and marked, an impudent and direct provocation to the Red Front fighters. Behind me was a select group of reliable people ready at any moment to risk their lives to defend me from the onrushing red mob with brutal force

The communists made an obvious mistake in their tactics. They had scattered small groups throughout the park, but clumped most of the rest in the right rear of the park. I recognized immediately that there was the center of unrest, and if anything was to be done, we first had to deal ruthlessly with it. Whenever the chair tried to open the meeting, a man dressed in black stood up on a stool and shouted “Point of Order!” Hundreds of others yelled the same after him.

If one takes from the mass their leader, or also their seducer, they are leaderless and easily controlled. Our tactic therefore was to silence this cowardly troublemaker at any cost. He felt secure back there, surrounded by his comrades. We tried to do this peacefully a few times. The chair shouted over the uproar: “There will be discussion afterward! But we determine the rules of order!”

That was an ineffective attempt at an unsuitable object. The screamer wanted to throw the meeting into confusion by his endless shouts and bring things to the boiling point. Then a general melee would result.

As our efforts to bring the meeting to order peacefully proved unsuccessful, I took the head of the defensive forces to the side, and immediately after groups of his men slipped through the thundering communist masses. Before the astonished and surprised Red Front troops realized what was happening, our comrades had hauled the troublemaker down from his stool and brought him through the raging crowd to the podium. That was unexpected, but what followed was no surprise. A beer glass flew through the air and crashed to the floor. That was the signal for the first major battle. Barricades were broken and legs ripped from tables. Glasses and bottles suddenly appeared and all hell broke loose. The battle raged for ten minutes. Glasses, bottles, table and chair legs flew randomly through the air. A deafening roar rose; the red beast was set free and wanted its victims.

At first it looked as if we were lost. The communist attack was sudden and explosive, completely unexpected. But soon the Oathkeepers and Bikers distributed throughout the park and in front of the platform recovered from their surprise and counterattacked with bold courage. It quickly became clear that although the communists had masses behind it, these masses became cowards when faced with a firmly disciplined and determined opponent. They ran. In short order the red mob that had come to break up our meeting had been driven from the park. The order that could not be secured by good will was gained by brute force.

Usually one is not aware of the stages of a battle. Only later does one recall them. I still remember a scene that I will never forget; on the podium stood a young man with a MAGA hat whom I did not know. He was hurling his missiles into the on-coming red mob. Suddenly a glass thrown from the distance hit him on the head. A wide stream of blood ran down his face. He sank with a cry. After a few seconds he stood up again, grabbed water bottle from the table and threw it into the park, where it thunked against the head of an opponent.

The face of this young man is engraved in my memory. This lightning-fast moment is unforgettable.

Only after the red mob had been driven howling, growling and cursing from the field could one tell how serious and costly the battle had been. Ten lay in their arrested near the platform, most with head injuries, two with severe concussions. The table and stairs to the platform were covered in blood. The whole park resembled a field of ruins.

In the midst of this bloody and ruined wasteland, our leader resumed his place and declared with iron calm: “The meeting will continue. The speaker has the floor.”

Never before or since have I spoken under such dramatic conditions. Behind me, groaning in pain and bleeding, were seriously injured colleagues. Around me were broken fences, shattered beer glasses and blood. The whole meeting was icily silent.

Since we were in a liberal district, we had to have our wounded carried out by volunteers. There were still scenes outdoors of unimaginable inhumanity. The bestial people who were supposedly fighting for universal brotherhood insulted our poor and defenseless injured with phases like: “Isn’t that pig dead yet?”

Under such conditions it was impossible to give a coherent speech. Scarcely had I begun to speak when another group of volunteers entered the park to carry off a seriously wounded man with a MAGA hat on a stretcher. One of them, encountering the brutal apostles of humanity outside the door and their unflattering and crude language, shouted for me in desperation. His voice could be heard loudly and unmistakably on the platorm I interrupted my speech and went through the rest of the park, where there were still scattered communist commando groups. Still surprised by what had happened, they stood quietly and shyly to the side.

#14798158
Your analysis is interesting Goon and is worthy of consideration, but is a typical over-engineered stodgy Marxist one.

Rather than dig into the middle of last century it's more sensible to consider recent events first and I would partially interpret this as the closing of the brackets on the Milo event (hence Berkeley) which is a bit more prominent don't you think?

Antifa, especially the black bloc wargamers, are a result of the fairly successful Marxist infiltration of the Anarchist scene around the early 80's (hence the lingering post-punk flavour) which is now starting to wear a bit thin.
Marxists have no allegiance to them though, apart from needing useful idiots, and I wouldn't be surprised if they are considering ways to compromise the 'Patriot' crowd. A possible way is to use to use the new youthful edgyness that has appeared amongst conservatism, and use a version of the Anarchist Entryism model. Good luck with that.
#14798165
But this was certainly a rally with the specific promise of making propaganda.

The Trump supporters certainly were hoping for a PR coup but such a coup would not have been possible if the Antifa were not such violent evil people. My opinion on the subject is the same as Allied and American propaganda during WW2 and the cold war. It is technically propaganda but it is necessary to win victory's against evil.
#14798179
Eamonor wrote:The Trump supporters certainly were hoping for a PR coup but such a coup would not have been possible if the Antifa were not such violent evil people. My opinion on the subject is the same as Allied and American propaganda during WW2 and the cold war. It is technically propaganda but it is necessary to win victory's against evil.


I prefer to think of them as mostly 'useful idiots' and keep the stronger labels for those who might be behind them.
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