Paris shooting: Two French policemen killed on Champs-Élysé​e​s - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

Wandering the information superhighway, he came upon the last refuge of civilization, PoFo, the only forum on the internet ...

Talk about what you've seen in the news today.

Moderator: PoFo Today's News Mods

#14799110
MadMonk wrote:One of the greatest flaws in human consciousness is its inability to rationally critique ones own beliefs without undermining ones identity and self-confidence. A sociologist would say that we almost naturally form groups and loyalties based thereof. To critique the larger group that one has either been born into or chosen, becomes almost treacherous and forbidden for oneself. Group pressure and approval become powerful weapons in its aim of uniformity in search for a common goal. The greater self-assurance and invulnerability one feels, the less one is reliant on something greater than oneself.

This is true in the West, it is true in every corner of the globe.

The west is certainly not perfect, but when it comes to self-criticism, especially of our past, we are world champions. We even have countries like Germany, where less than a decade of its history and the associated guilt is defining its identity more than anything else. And while this is strongest with our past, it isn't confined to it. Again, we have no problem identifying religious motivations among fundamentalist Christians (i.e. "our own" religion), yet we go out of our way to deny it if Islam is involved even if the perpetrators themselves identify religion as one or the factor. The mental gymnastics involved in our denial are absolutely hilarious.

MadMonk wrote:It is much easier to find flaws in what we hate than it is in what we love. Fear is what binds us; without it there is no meaning, too much of it and it becomes your greatest enemy, taking over every aspect of your life.

What I'm trying to get at is to defeat an enemy, either real or imaginary, one must first understand ones enemy. We are seeing a disproportionate number of Muslim youths being radicalized in Europe in comparison to other stated groups. The common denominator is low social status and alienation coupled with greater events happening in the wider world. Any critique from an outsider of said group is perceived as an attack on the very core tenets of the shared formed identity, strengthening it and making it more resolved, meaning any reformation of beliefs/behaviour/attitudes must come from within instead of an outside source to be effective.

Unlike many Leftist/Social-Liberals I recognize that this sentiment goes both ways and terror-attacks like this hardens the position of everyone involved.

It is fairly easy to disprove your theory, since the same or similar circumstances did not and do not lead other groups to blow themselves up or commit atrocities at an accelerating rate. You really have to be willfully blind to refuse to identify the common denominator in these terrorist attacks.
#14799111
Ter wrote:Are you really so naive to think that one generation takes the radical Muslim out of people ?
Do you really think that the children of Palestinians in America are to be compared to children of, let's say, German or Danish immigrants ?
It seems to me that you are the naive fool in this matter, Godstud.
The huge majority of terrorists are either first or second or even third generation Immigrant Muslims or new converts. The poison spreads easily.
But go ahead and keep on saying that it has nothing to do with Islam. It will not do your credibility any good.


What Godstud and others like him aren't quite comprehending yet is that the situation is getting worse. So what are we supposed to do? Allow 1 Muslim with a suitcase nuke to blow up a city before restricting and stopping Muslim immigration? Because if we don't, the chances are virtually certain that mass murder on an unimaginable scale will happen, just a question of when. The more we restrict and stop Muslims from coming into our country, WITHOUT QUESTION it makes our country safer, MUCH safer, and that's not debatable. Therefore we have no other choice, Muslim immigration must be severely restricted or totally eliminated...it's our only option.
#14799118
The solution isn't to punish the entirety of Muslims with bans and the like. We need to appeal to those people (without giving way with refugees etc) to combat the ingrained terrorists. Their faith as Muslims has to be allowed, by the first amendment and by liberal philosophy. The actions define people.
#14799125
Yeah, yeah, I'm a naive fool, and you're a person, who spreads hatred and ignorance, while condoning violence against anyone not like you.

Just because some asshole yells out, "This is for God", doesn't make him religious.

I say, "Jesus Christ", when I encounter arrogance like yours. Am I religious?
Cmon, Ter. Tell me all about how I am a Radical Christian!

:moron:
#14799126
2nd generation migrants often feel apart from the host culture of the country of their birth and don't identify with their parents' country of origin. I think this isolation and alienation can make them more vulnerable to radicalisation and other problems.

In Britain the 7/7 bombings that killed 52 people, the 21/7 bombings that killed 0 and numerous plots that were interrupted by police involved mostly 2nd generation immigrants.
#14799134
Yes, and religion has very little to with anything, but most people are too stupid to realize this.

These are the same people who say religion causes wars, when wars are done over resources, politics and many other non-religious reasons. Even the Crusades were done as a money/land grab, by the Church.

People who hate, dismiss facts and reason.
#14799138
Godstud wrote:Fact: No immigrant or refugee has committed a terrorist act in the USA.

Sure they have. The Tsarnaev brothers, and the San Bernardino woman was a Pakistani radicalized in Saudi Arabia. Why do you keep repeating this lie? You could argue that Mohammed Atta was not an immigrant or a refugee, but he was on a student visa to study how to fly jet airliners into skyscrapers.

Godstud wrote:This is why the justification for Trump's Muslim ban was denied by the Supreme Court. Simply put: There is no justification.

SCOTUS hasn't heard the case yet. In fact, no court has heard the case yet. It was simply an injunction.

Frollein wrote:So when did you convert, Godstud? 'Cause finding Allah is the most plausible explanation for your enthusiastic defense of that totalitarian ideology that exhorts its proponents to kill all outsiders.

Godstud lives under the military "junta" of Thailand. Don't call it a military dictatorship, or he will get very defensive. Godstud seems to be just fine living under a military government.

Beren wrote:That's a great opportunity for Le Pen to boost her campaign a bit as both Fillon and Mélenchon could come in second on Sunday.

She's the voice of reason in France now...
#14799148
blackjack21 wrote:Godstud lives under the military "junta" of Thailand. Don't call it a military dictatorship, or he will get very defensive. Godstud seems to be just fine living under a military government.
:lol: It's a military junta, but they have to follow the Thai Constitution, because if the Thai monarchy has to step in, the military junta collapses, instantly. The Thai people, including those in the military, have too much respect for the Thai monarchy. You wouldn't know that though, since you really don't understand, in the least.

Also:
Thailand legislator: General election will be delayed
Politician says vote likely to be held in 2018 to pass election laws for democratic transition from military rule.
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/01/t ... 45073.html

It's a complex issue that many people, who don't have a clue about Thailand's history, can't understand. This is the 19th military coup in Thailand's history, incidentally.

So, Blackjack21, admit you're wrong. I did(see below). We can't be right all the time.

blackjack21 wrote:The Tsarnaev brothers
Yes, I was wrong. 1 or 2 cases over a couple decades. Would you care to know about how many homegrown AMERICANS became terrorists? Are you going to start deporting Americans who look suspicious, just in case?

Fifty Terror Plots Foiled Since 9/11: The Homegrown Threat and the Long War on Terrorism
http://www.heritage.org/terrorism/repor ... -terrorism
#14799158
It's fascinating that Godstud can jump from one extreme- Islam is always awful- to the opposite extreme- Islam can do no wrong- whilst bloodthirsty Islamists yell 'allah ackbar' at the top of their lungs.

Also, the junta wrote it's own constitution and banned any campaigns against it before it passed in a referendum.
#14799160
The west is certainly not perfect, but when it comes to self-criticism, especially of our past, we are world champions. We even have countries like Germany, where less than a decade of its history and the associated guilt is defining its identity more than anything else. And while this is strongest with our past, it isn't confined to it. Again, we have no problem identifying religious motivations among fundamentalist Christians (i.e. "our own" religion), yet we go out of our way to deny it if Islam is involved even if the perpetrators themselves identify religion as one or the factor. The mental gymnastics involved in our denial are absolutely hilarious.

It is fairly easy to disprove your theory, since the same or similar circumstances did not and do not lead other groups to blow themselves up or commit atrocities at an accelerating rate. You really have to be willfully blind to refuse to identify the common denominator in these terrorist attacks.


To both your parts; yes, I'm aware that Islam is highly involved. I also believe that the more one targets the faith in the broadest possible sense, the less cooperation will we receive and the more fundamentalist it will become. I'm not a fan of any religion but just as I might dislike gravity as I'm tumbling down the stairs, wishing for it to disappear at that moment will not make that happen.
#14799161
There is no doubt Europe has had a problem with some Islamic terrorist acts recently, but I do find it ironic that Trump has the gall to criticise Europe for the recent number of shootings... and not just because the US caused the refugee problem to begin with. How many police get shot in the US on a daily basis? It's so frequent it doesn't even make the news over there. And the shooters. Not Islamic. How many radicalized Christian youths have entered schools/cinemas/night clubs in the US and shoot innocent people over the past few years? And these people are not always islamic. So radicalization in not faith based. Let be clear here before we start the xenophobic comments again. I have noticed these terrorist acts tend to be made by people who wants to make a statement. And the US have a bigger problem than Europe on this regard. So if you put things into perspective, the US need to sort their house out before they have a go at Europe with sly comments.
#14799194
Zagadka wrote:The solution isn't to punish the entirety of Muslims with bans and the like. We need to appeal to those people (without giving way with refugees etc) to combat the ingrained terrorists. Their faith as Muslims has to be allowed, by the first amendment and by liberal philosophy. The actions define people.


I hear ya, and I would have fully agreed with that say around 20 years ago. I've got no problem at all with Muslims who are US citizens, and they are to be protected by our Constitution same as anyone. However we must keep new Muslims from coming into our country. The situation in today's extremely dangerous world absolutely requires that.
#14799246
AFAIK wrote:Also, the junta wrote it's own constitution and banned any campaigns against it before it passed in a referendum.
:roll: That's simply not true. They are abiding by the 1932 constitution, and if they've deviated, it's not enough for the King to kick their butts out, because, like it or not, the King's got the ear of the people/

They've actually done some good things, but they're not so good with the economy. Then again Thailand's long overdue for a recession. That could just simply be it.

We'll see, I guess. I live with the effects, and people hardly notice the difference in governing, aside from military watching police more, to prevent corruption. It's mostly just resulted in corruption moving around a bit.

It's fascinating that Godstud can jump from one extreme- Islam is always awful- to the opposite extreme- Islam can do no wrong- whilst bloodthirsty Islamists yell 'allah ackbar' at the top of their lungs.
I never said it can do no wrong. Don't be an ignorant twat. All religions are problematic in that they are excuses for hatred and prejudice. Islam's just the religion of choice for the people in that region. The people in that region have also suffered at the hands of Western foreign policy that has been horrendous, for decades.

As I already said, yelling God is great, or some other epitaph as you blow up, is meaningless. According to Islam, that won't help them get to paradise, when killing is not permitted. It also doesn't make you a Muslim.

When I die I'll be sure to yell, "Allahu Akbar!", just to confuse people. :lol:

noir wrote:Obama created it. But he had good "post colonial" motives.
Obama didn't create the problem. US foreign policy for the last 50 years has. The US had very few post-war plans for Iraq, except to hopefully steal their oil and put in a stable puppet government. They failed on all counts.
#14799258
They have a new constitution and opposition campaigns were banned when it was implemented.

Campaigning against the draft in the run-up to the referendum was banned and dozens of people were detained. Thailand's biggest political parties rejected the constitution.
BBC

Among the most controversial provisions is the NCPO appointment of the 250 seats of the Upper House in the next government. Within a bicameral parliament, an NCPO appointed upper house would mean a military-backed delegation are guaranteed a critical role in the next term. Critics say this could open the door for an unelected, military-backed Prime Minister.

Officially, campaigning for the referendum has been banned. The reality, however, has been a targeted suppression of ‘No’ campaigners.

On 21 July, a Red-shirt TV station was closed for 30 days, while over the past month, scores of activists and at least one journalist has been arrested under Article 61 of the controversial Referendum Act. The Act forbids any media from spreading “false information” which might influence voters, but also bans the spreading of “violent, aggressive, vulgar or coercive” information by any individual. Critics claim the imprecise, broad wording of the Act permits the targeting of ‘No’ campaigners.

The UN and multiple ambassadors have expressed concern of the clamp-down.

The Guardian

It appears they wish to mimic Myanmar and grant the military control of the core functions of gov't whilst allowing an elected gov't to control peripheral functions. Perhaps you missed this due to censorship?

Godstud wrote:Don't be an ignorant twat.

I prefer the term hyperbolic overstatement but whatever. :lol:
#14802631
Sorry for my late reply.

MadMonk wrote:To both your parts; yes, I'm aware that Islam is highly involved. I also believe that the more one targets the faith in the broadest possible sense, the less cooperation will we receive and the more fundamentalist it will become.

Cheers, MadMonk. I was pleasantly surprised to see you acknowledging this, as this has become increasingly rare.

However, I have to disagree with you again with respect to your assertion that targeting a faith is detrimental. Since this thread is about France, it's worth remembering that the country has a rich tradition of mocking, targeting and even humiliating its own dominant faith, Christianity, and the response of Christians was not what you describe above. You could argue that Islam is not like other faiths and hence the reaction of Muslims will be different, but this would require us as a society to acknowledge that we cannot speak about all faiths in general (as you seem to be doing below) which in turn would actually lead to legitimate questions about large scale Muslim immigration into western countries. I don't see the left/progressive/liberals being prepared to even entertain this thought and its consequences.

Further, even if Islam is sufficiently different to, say, Christianity, so that we can expect a different reaction from its followers in response to mocking and targeting their faith, it needs to be shown that your hypothesis is true. At this point it is simply an assertion that agrees with progressive sensibilities rather than something for which there is sound evidence. Nevertheless, I suspect that most people on your side of the argument - if I am mistaken about you being progressive, please do correct me - generally consider it a fact and/or common sense.

MadMonk wrote:I'm not a fan of any religion but just as I might dislike gravity as I'm tumbling down the stairs, wishing for it to disappear at that moment will not make that happen.

As mentioned above, I'm not sure it is valid to treat all religions the same and expect similar results, although I do increasingly believe that humans are inherently religious, just as they are inherently tribal, and hence religiosity will never disappear. Just like with other powerful human drives, it is more a question of how to moderate it and/or how to make it work for the benefit of our societies.

Just to clarify, in case the above does not make much sense, I view the various forms of spirituality in the western world as an expression of religiosity.

It is implausible that the IDF could not or would[…]

Moving on to the next misuse of language that sho[…]

@JohnRawls What if your assumption is wrong??? […]

There is no reason to have a state at all unless w[…]