[The Sabbaticus]

The only real fight I see is over equal employment and housing laws and the bathroom stuff. Neither of which seems to matter very much except for the trans community and the people who really really hate them. The issue is treated like some monumentally huge challenge of the age when in reality it is almost entirely unimportant to most people.

Said with no trace of irony in a thread with the title 'Scientific Evidence Suggests That Gender Roles are Indeed Artifical Constructs'. When 'psyunce' is used to push an ideology that includes a 'gender spectrum' (where syndromes and chromosomal deficiencies are treated as functional biology), it's fairly obvious that this is part of the culture wars, and that it will come at the expense of traditional gender identities.

E.g. 'CIS white male' is widely considered a derogatory insult.

[Rugoz]

Without having read the article, it seems kind of obvious that gender roles didn't matter much in small pre-historic communities, since there was no clear hierarchy or division of labor.

[Political Interest]

Its all a load of nonsense. There is no need to deconstruct gender. Its absolutely boring and pointless. The fact is, when I buy a present for young family members, if it is a little girl it will be pink and maybe I will get her a toy horse. If it is a boy it will be blue and he will get toy tanks or toy pistols.

[Zagadka]

No, being entirely gender-binary is boring and pointless. I'm not saying that you have to entertain all kinds of bullshit, especially with children, but let the girls pick their toys etc.

[The Sabbaticus]

Without having read the article, it seems kind of obvious that gender roles didn't matter much in small pre-historic communities, since there was no clear hierarchy or division of labor.

Except that it's an 'article' dealing with haute monde culture war themes, meaning the editorial decision to focus on this politically laden subject is fraught to begin with. Perhaps if there was a disclaimer included, otherwise it should be automatically treated as suspect.

Pop culture 'psyunce' is basically journalists trying to understand research they have no background in, and transposing these 'findings' into bite-sized media chunks. E.g. this is why the current 'WAW' phenomenon is trending.

In the case of 'Scientific American' you typically have 'respectable scientific figures' writing the articles themselves or in collaboration, but this wouldn't be the first time where a major 'pop psyunce' magazine lends its credibility to promote progressive culture war causes.

[Frollein]

it seems kind of obvious that gender roles didn't matter much in small pre-historic communities, since there was no clear hierarchy or division of labor.

Now where did you get that piece of wisdom from? Look no further than the South American jungle tribes still living their stone-age lives: the women gather plants and eggs and anything that doesn't bite back, and raise the kids, the men hunt and go to war with neighbouring tribes. And none of them suddenly "identifies as" their opposite gender. Even the whole shaman crossdressing shit is more for ritual purposes than because they suddenly feel the urge to disavow their penis.

[Zagadka]

And none of them suddenly "identifies as" their opposite gender. Even the whole shaman crossdressing shit is more for ritual purposes than because they suddenly feel the urge to disavow their penis.

Several native American tribes did accept trans and bi-gendered people. I don't get why people are so bothered about it.

[Political Interest]

No, being entirely gender-binary is boring and pointless. I'm not saying that you have to entertain all kinds of bullshit, especially with children, but let the girls pick their toys etc.

Of course. All I am saying is that there is nothing wrong with making gender assumptions. If I am buying some clothes for a young male family member, obviously I will not get him pink will I?

[Frollein]

Several native American tribes did accept trans and bi-gendered people. I don't get why people are so bothered about it.

Perhaps because they didn't have bathrooms? Anyway, it doesn't really address my argument, because Rugoz was referring to the stone-age tribes, those most natural of all humans , and the closest we have to that today are tribes like the Yanomami in the Amazonian jungle.

I didn't say they didn't have the odd crazy back then - they just made him the shaman; there are lots of anthropological articles about the local shamans being schizophrenic, actually. If your civilization hasn't yet invented insane asylums, you have to find a different solution.

[Zagadka]

They did have holes to shit in.

Well, as long as we avoid the long suffering from all those trans people raping everyone. Truly a modern plague.

[Frollein]

Did you find a straw bale in you backyard? 'Cause you're building straw men like crazy. The rape question wasn't even on the table until you introduced it just now.

[Zagadka]

I just assumed that you brought up trans bathrooms for a reason. Guess not.

[Frollein]

You wondered why NA didn't have those discussions, which is an assumption itself, btw. Maybe the trannies didn't expect everyone to fall over backwards to accomodate their snowflake feelings and didn't throw a hissy fit if they weren't addressed with invented pronouns, who knows? They're all dead now anyways, so we can't ask them.

But they sure come in handy when lefties want to project their alphabet soup utopia on their extinct society.

[mikema63]

Said with no trace of irony in a thread with the title 'Scientific Evidence Suggests That Gender Roles are Indeed Artifical Constructs'. When 'psyunce' is used to push an ideology that includes a 'gender spectrum' (where syndromes and chromosomal deficiencies are treated as functional biology), it's fairly obvious that this is part of the culture wars, and that it will come at the expense of traditional gender identities.

E.g. 'CIS white male' is widely considered a derogatory insult.

Just because your obsessed with one of the most depressing stupid and marginal issue of our society today doesn't mean everyone else is.

[Pants-of-dog]

Actually, the indigenous people of North America are not all dead, despite the claims of some. I am married to one, so if they were dead, visiting the in-laws would be even scarier.

Now, what do indigenous people have to say about gender?

Native American notions of identity are communal. They depend upon community context, status and history. In many ways, gender is more fluid in Native American cultures in comparison to the rigid binary concepts of male-female that we know in Western societies. In the PBS documentary “Two Spirits” (which you can watch further below), Navajo scholar Wesley Thomas explains that Navajo culture has four genders:

Given that Navajo culture is matrilineal , the first gender is feminine woman (asdzaan). They are born biologically female and function socially as women;
Masculine man (hastiin), are born biologically male and adopt the role of men;
Feminine man (nádleehí) are born biologically male and function socially as women; and
Masculine woman (dilbaa) are born biologically female but function as men.

Canadian Cree-speaking blogger âpihtawikosisân attempts to translate Two Spirit terms from her culture, noting that English translations are not straightforward. She writes:

napêw iskwêwisêhot (nu-PAYO ihs-gwayo-WIH-say-hoht), a man who dresses as a woman
iskwêw ka napêwayat (ihs-GWAYO ga nu-PAYO-wuh-yut), a woman dressed as a man
ayahkwêw (U-yuh-gwayo), a man dressed/living/accepted as a woman. I can see the ‘woman’ part of this word, but I am confused about the possible meaning of the rest of the word. Some have suggested this word can actually be used as a ‘third’ gender of sorts, applied to women and men.
înahpîkasoht (ee-nuh-PEE-gu-soot), a woman dressed/living/accepted as a man. (also translated as someone who fights everyone to prove they are the toughest? Interesting!)
iskwêhkân (IS-gwayh-gahn), literally ‘fake woman’, but without negative connotations.
napêhkân (NU-payh-gahn) literally ‘fake man’, but without negative connotations.
As you can see from these examples which represent only two of a multiple cultural, historical and linguistic traditions, Native American cultures don’t construct gender as the singular possession of one gender or another. They don’t have the Western binaries of “men are this way; women are that way.” Instead, Native Americans of different cultures generally believe that all humans and animals possess both feminine and masculine qualities. This is part of their spirituality. At particular points of time, Native American tribes have a sanctioned practice that allows a person to swap genders. There are strict cultural codes that govern this transition. Not everyone is allowed to simply swap genders on a whim.

https://othersociologist.com/2013/09/09 ... it-people/

The entire article is interesting, and is written by a sociologist whose focus is on clarifying what indigenous people actually believe about gender.

[Rugoz]

Now where did you get that piece of wisdom from?

To my knowledge, apart from hunting, which was probably mostly the men's job, men and women had similar occupation. The relevant question though is whether the occupation put one clearly above the other. I would say throughout most of human history this has been the case. Even today men are far more likely to occupy positions of power/influence.

[MememyselfandIJK]

Except that it's an 'article' dealing with haute monde culture war themes, meaning the editorial decision to focus on this politically laden subject is fraught to begin with. Perhaps if there was a disclaimer included, otherwise it should be automatically treated as suspect.

Pop culture 'psyunce' is basically journalists trying to understand research they have no background in, and transposing these 'findings' into bite-sized media chunks. E.g. this is why the current 'WAW' phenomenon is trending.

In the case of 'Scientific American' you typically have 'respectable scientific figures' writing the articles themselves or in collaboration, but this wouldn't be the first time where a major 'pop psyunce' magazine lends its credibility to promote progressive culture war causes.

Sorry, I couldn't find an article on a page that didn't force you to log in as a subscriber and I respect Scientific American too much to pirate an article. The article acknowledges that it is somewhat speculative (i.e. why I used the word "suggests" instead of "supports" in the title of this thread). However the article does use scientific evidence. For example, it analyzes the diets of men and women over time and points to the fact that women started eating much less meat then men starting in the bronze age (when it argues that gender roles emerged), and cites historical events such as the Chinese Warring states (The article uses Chinese history as a case study).

Is the article a little far-fetched? Yes. But the very prospect that gender roles could be artificial could be valuable in modern society where women still struggle to get equal rights, even in developed nations.

@Pants-of-dog this is a good blog post about gender fluidly in the contexts of communes. It focuses communism as a pretext, rather than Native American Collectives, but it does discuss the latter and the basic ideas transfer over.

[The Sabbaticus]

Actually, the indigenous people of North America are not all dead, despite the claims of some. I am married to one, so if they were dead, visiting the in-laws would be even scarier.

Now, what do indigenous people have to say about gender?

Native American notions of identity are communal. They depend upon community context, status and history. In many ways, gender is more fluid in Native American cultures in comparison to the rigid binary concepts of male-female that we know in Western societies. In the PBS documentary “Two Spirits” (which you can watch further below), Navajo scholar Wesley Thomas explains that Navajo culture has four genders:

Given that Navajo culture is matrilineal , the first gender is feminine woman (asdzaan). They are born biologically female and function socially as women;
Masculine man (hastiin), are born biologically male and adopt the role of men;
Feminine man (nádleehí) are born biologically male and function socially as women; and
Masculine woman (dilbaa) are born biologically female but function as men.

Canadian Cree-speaking blogger âpihtawikosisân attempts to translate Two Spirit terms from her culture, noting that English translations are not straightforward. She writes:

napêw iskwêwisêhot (nu-PAYO ihs-gwayo-WIH-say-hoht), a man who dresses as a woman
iskwêw ka napêwayat (ihs-GWAYO ga nu-PAYO-wuh-yut), a woman dressed as a man
ayahkwêw (U-yuh-gwayo), a man dressed/living/accepted as a woman. I can see the ‘woman’ part of this word, but I am confused about the possible meaning of the rest of the word. Some have suggested this word can actually be used as a ‘third’ gender of sorts, applied to women and men.
înahpîkasoht (ee-nuh-PEE-gu-soot), a woman dressed/living/accepted as a man. (also translated as someone who fights everyone to prove they are the toughest? Interesting!)
iskwêhkân (IS-gwayh-gahn), literally ‘fake woman’, but without negative connotations.
napêhkân (NU-payh-gahn) literally ‘fake man’, but without negative connotations.
As you can see from these examples which represent only two of a multiple cultural, historical and linguistic traditions, Native American cultures don’t construct gender as the singular possession of one gender or another. They don’t have the Western binaries of “men are this way; women are that way.” Instead, Native Americans of different cultures generally believe that all humans and animals possess both feminine and masculine qualities. This is part of their spirituality. At particular points of time, Native American tribes have a sanctioned practice that allows a person to swap genders. There are strict cultural codes that govern this transition. Not everyone is allowed to simply swap genders on a whim.

https://othersociologist.com/2013/09/09 ... it-people/

The entire article is interesting, and is written by a sociologist whose focus is on clarifying what indigenous people actually believe about gender.

Seeing that Native Americans were a particularly warlike and ecologically destructive race, I suspect that the 'multiplicity' in genders (if correct), as found in these cultures, is a crude form of hierarchical designation.

Whereas Western culture allows for a man to be physically weak and/or of cowardly spirit, in these cultures the physically weak or cowardly man would be reduced to a 'fake man', and lose his gender status as a man - becoming effectively female. And vice-versa for females, who would lose their female gender and be regarded as a man-like creature.

Whenever Native Americans are considered 'enlightened', there is always some primitive twist to it that subverts the conventional meaning in modern society.

[Pants-of-dog]

Seeing that Native Americans were a particularly warlike and ecologically destructive race, I suspect that the 'multiplicity' in genders (if correct), as found in these cultures, is a crude form of hierarchical designation.

There are so many stupid and incorrect ideas mixed in here, I don't know where to start.

Whereas Western culture allows for a man to be physically weak and/or of cowardly spirit, in these cultures the physically weak or cowardly man would be reduced to a 'fake man', and lose his gender status as a man - becoming effectively female. And vice-versa for females, who would lose their female gender and be regarded as a man-like creature.

Whenever Native Americans are considered 'enlightened', there is always some primitive twist to it that subverts the conventional meaning in modern society.

Do you always just make up crap and then believe it, or is this something you reserve for gender studies and indigneous people?

[Beren]

But the very prospect that gender roles could be artificial could be valuable in modern society where women still struggle to get equal rights, even in developed nations.

In Western societies there is a cult of women actually. They have Women's Day, Valentine's Day, Mother's Day, and wedding anniversaries are like Valentine's Day mostly. Men are still expected to be polite and complaisant towards women in general, although the labour market never preferred them and it's still harder for them to get political power indeed.