[The Sabbaticus]

They didn't want to associate with him while he was alive. He was reported to the police by his own community. But nothing was done about because of his connections to MI5.

This is amusing, considering that the articles you're referring to mentioned the 'Manchester boys', not 'boy'. And as it turned out, the imam of the mosque in question was an ex-militant/jihadist in Libya. The father of the bomber was also an ex-militant/jihadist in Libya. The same went for his brother.

How many more 'peaceful congregation members' had a similar ex-militant/jihadist background? And why was the mosque known for its extremism?

He was perhaps reported by the community because they could no longer control him.

[noir]

[QatzelOk]

These Islamic organizations don't want to lose all the privileges that they've acquired under the current multicultural system of 'appeasement and look the other way.' That's why they refuse to associate themselves with Salman Abedi (now that he's dead).

These mosques are important for Islamic immigrants who migrate to rich Western nations and find... that we have no culture or values to adhere to. Only greed and trend-following.

On the other hand, religion fosters superstition and intolerance to people with different life philosophies.

Perhaps it would be best to get rid of our elites and start over? Because the current "governance" that we have just keeps destroying foreign nations and then inviting the survivors in as "cheap labor." It's a sure-to-fail strategy but what choice do the rich-and-useless have?

[Buzz62]

These mosques are important for Islamic immigrants who migrate to rich Western nations and find... that we have no culture or values to adhere to. Only greed and trend-following.

On the other hand, religion fosters superstition and intolerance to people with different life philosophies.

Perhaps it would be best to get rid of our elites and start over? Because the current "governance" that we have just keeps destroying foreign nations and then inviting the survivors in as "cheap labor." It's a sure-to-fail strategy but what choice do the rich-and-useless have?

No culture or values?
Qatz why do you remain in a nation and culture you so obviously hate?
Your jealousy of success is so opaque and elementary.
Everyone is well aware of the stupidity of the "elites".
But your consistent whining makes it so easy for them to simply write such opinions off as more simple-minded drivel.

[Stormsmith]

These mosques are important for Islamic immigrants who migrate to rich Western nations and find... that we have no culture or values

We create art, write poetry and literature, etc daily. We create styles and trends all the time. Music is nonstop. We create foods several times a day. We are awash in culture. Values are encoded in law and tradition.

On the other hand, religion fosters superstition and intolerance to people with different life philosophies.

No. Perverted people pervert religion, full stop.

Perhaps it would be best to get rid of our elites and start over? Because the current "governance" that we have just keeps destroying foreign nations and then inviting the survivors in as "cheap labor." It's a sure-to-fail strategy but what choice do the rich-and-useless have?

Are you kidding me? Did we conquer China and invite the survivors over, or did I hear a whisper about off shoring? What about Mexico, or was that a NAFTA thingee? As to the middle east, they ask us for refuge. Good luck for those trying to go stateside.

[Buzz62]

This is amusing, considering that the articles you're referring to mentioned the 'Manchester boys', not 'boy'. And as it turned out, the imam of the mosque in question was an ex-militant/jihadist in Libya. The father of the bomber was also an ex-militant/jihadist in Libya. The same went for his brother.

How many more 'peaceful congregation members' had a similar ex-militant/jihadist background? And why was the mosque known for its extremism?

He was perhaps reported by the community because they could no longer control him.

See these are the little tidbits that tip the scales toward decisive action being urgent now.
This is a religious war to these people.
That makes them irrational.
And Islam does happen to be largely overbearing within the societies these people come from.
We are not even finished putting our own religious forces to bed. But we are getting there. We are closer than ever to removing the shackles of these misbegotten political ideals.
We DO NOT need a fresh infusion of insanity.

[skinster]

[QatzelOk]

Qatz why do you remain in a nation and culture you so obviously hate?

Because the nation that I obviously hate - the one with no culture or values - attacked the regions where my nation lived a few centuries ago (to steal resources) and the cultureless and valueless mercenaries are still here.

Did we conquer China and invite the survivors over, or did I hear a whisper about off shoring?

Yes, "we" (the Empire) used cheap Chinese labor to build railroads after "we" had impoverished China. Before that, "we" used cheap Irish labor to build canals - after "we" had impoverished and terrorized Ireland.

"We" (the Empire) don't have shared collective values. Mass media tells us what our opinions should be (and it's always changing with the needs of the rich), and our "intelligence" organizations and defense establishment fund terrorists and encourage extreme religious psychosis all over the world. They do this in order to destroy innovative nations so that the already rich can continue to consume the earth - literally - to death.

Where are the collective values and culture in being brainwashed by mass media and killing whomever your liars tell you are evil this week?

How many more Rich Elite-funded terrorists have to be shot before they can say anything - in order to let mainstream media weave whatever tail they want to tell by using some patsies Facebook profile - before the workers of the Empire realize they're being manipulated to act against their own interests?

"Our" foreign and domestic policies are the brain-dead and valueless work of mercenaries who don't actually participate in any kind of civilization. They just wait for their orders in their suburban barracks.

[Stormsmith]

We, (the Empire) used cheap Chinese labor to build railroads after "we" had impoverished China. Before that, "we" used cheap Irish labor to build canals - after "we" had impoverished and terrorized Ireland.

The economic issues probably were self imposed by China thru its 300 year closed door, closed sea policy, but whatever. You've got a couple of millennia of history from which you can cherry pick snippets to support your claims. What you're skipping is the modern history that gives rise to today's issues

We had little in the way of worker protection then, now we do. That's why companies offshore.

"We" (the Empire) don't have shared collective values. Mass media tells us what our opinions should be (and it's always changing with the needs of the rich), and our "intelligence" organizations and defense establishment fund terrorists and encourage extreme religious psychosis all over the world. They do this in order to destroy innovative nations so that the already rich can continue to consume the earth - literally - to death.

Yes we do. We are awash in culture, and the more multicultural we become, the more threads in the tapestry, the more interesting it becomes. So what if the media picks up on this or that? you're free to expand your knowledge or ignore it - your call. Values are enshrined in law and tradition. The Charter of Rights and laws pertaining to murder trumps the wont to honour kill.

Where are the collective values and culture in being brainwashed by mass media and killing whomever your liars tell you are evil this week?

example, plse

How many more Rich Elite-funded terrorists have to be shot before they can say anything - in order to let mainstream media weave whatever tail they want to tell by using some patsies Facebook profile - before the workers of the Empire realize they're being manipulated to act against their own interests?

Are we running around gagging rich, Elite-funded Terrorists? As to facebook ad nauseum I know nothing about this stuff, full stop.

"Our" foreign and domestic policies are the brain-dead and valueless work of mercenaries who don't actually participate in any kind of civilization. They just wait for their orders in their suburban barracks.

You need to qualify and identify subjects, and not just string together trendy negative adjectives or adverbs. The art of communication is in making a point clearly and simply.

[Buzz62]

Because the nation that I obviously hate - the one with no culture or values - attacked the regions where my nation lived a few centuries ago (to steal resources) and the cultureless and valueless mercenaries are still here.

Mercenaries? Do you consider any and all migrant families to Canada, as mercenaries? Who are these mercenaries?
Yes, the French and then the British came here for the resources...for the most part.
And as it happened, the Chiefs of the time realized they were far out-gunned and signed the treaties.
Canada does negotiate with the descendants of these Chiefs and their people to accommodate changing conditions. Would it have been wiser and better for the invaders to have just annihilated the native people? Or maybe...would have been wiser and better for the native people to have actively sought to join the new society?
As you say, this was centuries ago. You didn't do it. I didn't do it. We only have to live in it.
As a native born Canadian myself, I love Canada and am every bit a native of this land as any native born Canadian.
So thus I say again...if you hate it so much, here's the door.
BTW...in today's world...you know, the one we actually have to live in...you won't find another nation as "aboriginal friendly" as Canada. However should you, then by all means...go.

[redcarpet]

No culture or values?
Qatz why do you remain in a nation and culture you so obviously hate?

There is no 'culture' in Western societies. Both the Left and the Right must acknowledge that. From the 1980s-onwards with neoliberal economic policies what is the result? A consumerist-corporatist society. Where you buy food, movies, cheap coffee and work at (or below) minimum wage.

That isn't a 'culture'. Don't grandstand. The Right like to dress up their society as having a 'culture' that non-white and non-Christian immigrants are 'changing'. In reality the change is a result of intentional de-industrialisation and casualisation of the workforce from a manufacturing economy to a consumerist economy.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

There is no 'culture' in Western societies.

Can you expand on this snobbish viewpoint, please? What does culture consist of, in your mind? Do you think that none of the literature,music or art produce in the west in the last 35 years can be called part of culture, while the rest of the world is somehow forging ahead in their cultures?

Doesn't the World Wide Web, invented and further designed in the west, count as culture? A system allowing people from all over the world to talk to each other, even if it's to deny a significant part of the world has a culture?

[mikema63]

People seem to be blind to their own culture and seem to think only old time people and foreigners are doing it.

I mean sure we produce tons of art, literature, and media but most of it sucks. They forget that most of everything ever made sucks and we only remember the gems.

Who knows what will be considered classic art, music, or literature in a hundred years?

[Hong Wu]

Apparently there was another terrorist attack in western Europe today, a suicide bomber in Brussels.

Serious question, do people on this forum still think it's worth making a thread over every terrorist attack in western Europe? They are happening so rapidly now that they are starting to not seem highly newsworthy.

[SolarCross]

Apparently there was another terrorist attack in western Europe today, a suicide bomber in Brussels.

Serious question, do people on this forum still think it's worth making a thread over every terrorist attack in western Europe? They are happening so rapidly now that they are starting to not seem highly newsworthy.

Perhaps they could all be combined into a single Islamic terrorism mega-thread? How long before it would compete in size with the The Longest Thread Ever?

[Stormsmith]

There is no 'culture' in Western societies. Both the Left and the Right must acknowledge that. From the 1980s-onwards with neoliberal economic policies what is the result? A consumerist-corporatist society. Where you buy food, movies, cheap coffee and work at (or below) minimum wage.

That isn't a 'culture'. Don't grandstand. The Right like to dress up their society as having a 'culture' that non-white and non-Christian immigrants are 'changing'. In reality the change is a result of intentional de-industrialisation and casualisation of the workforce from a manufacturing economy to a consumerist economy.

This is an interesting post, but I disagree with it.

You seem to be measuring culture using economics as a yard stick, rather than productivity of culture. There is merit in your idea, but not to the extent that it denies the existence of the production of art.

Historically, only a small percentage of any population generates lasting art. Looking at Renaissance art, there are a number of artists in all fields of culture whose contributions moved the ball, but the general population always had a few who commissioned high art, and virtually none of the working class who could afford it. As technology improved, the reproduction of art made household art, whether it's pretty dishes or numbered prints, more available. Thus, we, the people can support the artist, helping him or her survive and even thrive through the consumption of art.

But it is a mistake to think we are cultureless. We make art every day. And, although this is subjective, multiculturalism enriches us.

[Stormsmith]

This art stuff is way off topic, but I wonder if there's enough interest in it to open a thread. Mikema, you've made an interesting point or two, too.

[mikema63]

It's something of a common trope among certain segments of the left but I don't know that'd get much traction as a thread.

It is a tad off topic though, your right.

[Political Interest]

Why do none of you understand that there is far more to this than religion?

And this has been in the making since the 1940s. We simply had the luxury of not knowing about it until September 2001.

There is a solution, but everyone dismisses it as impossible or against "Western interests".

Eventually these "Western interests" are going to result in the West drowning in and being devoured by the Islamic world.

Either we make our peace with the Arabs or we will drown in the Middle East.

We are unfortunately ruled by people who have an unhealthy obsession with the Arab and Islamic world. In reality we have no business with this part of the world and the more we push into it, the more it consumes us.

[mikema63]

We are unfortunately ruled by people who have an unhealthy obsession with the Arab and Islamic world.

More accurately we live in a system entirely dependent from top to bottom on oil to operate. If we dropped the middle east the whole thing would collapse on our heads.