[Oxymandias]

@neopagan

That isn't a blasphemy case. It's only a blasphemy case in a Middle Eastern country. So if you really want to do better than them you have to go to a Middle Eastern country and actually say it out loud in public instead of sitting at your laptop in you air conditioned home, being able to use your free speech and not get killed over it.

However that takes actual balls which you have none of.

[Ter]

The author stated that many people who live in Islamic countries feel afraid to speak their true opinions and that they are feed propaganda about Islam. Due to this their answers could potentially be unhonest opinions due to fear. This is literally in the first paragraph but because you didn't read it, you missed this part.

I did not miss that part.
It confirms my statement that the author makes an assumption. There is no proof, only opinion.

No, it is not an opinion, a hypothesis since it is testable and based on evidence.

Where is the evidence? There isn't any.

I didn't dismiss it at all and neither did the author. All I said was that if the hypothesis was true (and it seems to be true since you can't refute it seriously the easiest part of arguing with you is when you try to refute the hypothesis. Everything else is just me trying to help you separate the argument from the person) then this delegitimizes the poll making it untrustworthy. I never said that the poll has everything completely wrong and if I did, prove it.

How can anyone refute an opinion of an author (who you agreed is probably biased) ?
I do not have to prove anything but anyone who thinks that the Pew research is wrong should prove their claim. Not the other way around.

Yes, he is bias but his argument stands on it's own. It doesn't matter what mouth the argument comes from, as long as it is a good argument it is legitmate. If this was not the case then EVERYONES opinions would be wrong because EVERYONE is biased just like you said. And since EVERYONE is biased, this means that we have to tackle arguments and not disregard them because they are biased.

The only way to validate the opinion of this author is to implement a research project using recognised methodology and if possible publish in a peer-reviewed academic publication. Till then, it is the opinion of one person and whoever believes him.

You believe that Islam, a book and a pile of scrolls, is responsible for most of the problems in the world

No, not most of the problems in the world but a large proportion of them.

you enjoy news of Muslims dying and want the Middle East to be nuked

You are confusing me with other posters.

It looks as if you and I differ on the validity of the salon.com publication stating that the results of the Pew Research are wrong. I claim they are believable until the opposite is proven by scientific method, not supposition and not by anecdotal evidence.
Let the readers decide.

edited to add:

@neopagan

That isn't a blasphemy case. It's only a blasphemy case in a Middle Eastern country. So if you really want to do better than them you have to go to a Middle Eastern country and actually say it out loud in public instead of sitting at your laptop in you air conditioned home, being able to use your free speech and not get killed over it.

However that takes actual balls which you have none of.

In your reaction to poster neo pagan you seem to confirm that blasphemous utterings like Neo Pagan did in his post will lead to his early demise in many Islamic countries.
Sir, you are proving the premis of this thread.

[Oxymandias]

@Ter

Oh well actually I may understand what's going on here. It's a difference of experience. I forgot that you don't live in Iran like I do. So now I can present you evidence. In Iran, where I live, a significant part of the population dislikes the government however it fears it and, after asking my co-workers along with many people I know, I can tell you that the idea the author is highly probable. When asked about how they would answer in such a poll many of them answered that they would repeat the government's agenda (or as a friend of mine put it "whatever they teach you in school") and would try to get out of there as quickly as possible. When asked whether or not they would be afraid they answered yes.

If you want to test my evidence you can go to the Iran Politics Club to talk to actual Iranians. You can also ask actual Pakistanis at the Pakistani Forum (Do not look it up if you have seizures!!) or check out /r/Egypt to talk to actual Egyptians. Hell, any of the /r/ Middle Eastern subreddits could work. So now you can personally test my evidence good luck! Of course you wouldn't do it since anything that could damage your political beliefs is a no-no but I did give you a chance to prove that many Middle Easterns believe in whatever PEW says they believe yourself.

See above.

It isn't an opinion, it is a hypothesis since it is testable. How do you test it? By asking Middle Easterners. As long as you do not do this, the hypothesis still holds ground. It isn't an opinion if you can test it and since you can test it you can refute it. Please stop making excuses. You can't refute it no matter how much you try. The fact that he is biased is irrelevant since everyone is biased. You can't just ignore a persons argument because he's biased. If that's the case then everyone would ignore each others arguments and nothing will be done.

Or you could go ahead and ask some real, in the flesh, Middle Easterners using the forums I told you about. That's much more simple. Or you could go to a Middle Eastern country, learn the tongue, and talk to people or become friends with a Middle Easterner in the US and travel with him and have him translate. I think you mean unproven hypothesis. Seriously how can you be this dense?

Most = large proportion unless you want to prove me otherwise.

Hm, that could be possible. I recall you posted an explicitly thankful post over the suicide bombing at Ayatollah Khomeini's tomb post a while back.

EDIT:

No, it did not state that and I demand that you quote where it stated that. There is no science in this. This 'Cult of Science' shit is killing me. You didn't give the readers anything of worth though. I feel like I was the only one putting actual effort into making good posts while you kept parroting the same thing over and over again.

Yes I am. However that is due to the governments and not the people. People don't have to agree with the government and could be afraid of speaking their minds. We went over this and based on your post it seems you do not want to go over this again. In which case I recommend you stop posting on this topic for good lest we go back to our circular argument.

[Verv]

@MistyTiger,

@Verv Heya Verv, LTNS in PoFo! What's up?

I knew one girl from Pakistan. And if not for her headscarf, she seemed very westernized to me. Not all immigrants are crazy extremists who want to kill and bring devastation everywhere they go with their anti-West views.

LTNS indeed. I miss you all. Hope all is well.

You are very right that a significant amount of Muslim immigrants are fine. Particularly, the ones that I meet in Korea, the ones that you meet in Canada, have gone through extreme vetting in most cases. The ones who do not just cross over to Europe through basically illegal means and seek asylum... the ones who make it to far away places tend to have wealth & means, and in their own societies were contributing members. In order to be conventionally contributing members with an income, they had to be somehow westernized over there, so then they come and integrate easily.

But the whole nature of this is "IKAGO" thinking. IKAGO = I Know A Good One.

It is illegitimate to use this kind of anecdotal evidence to prop up waves of millions of immigrants forever changing the cultural, social and literal landscape of Europe.

[Ter]

I recall you posted an explicitly thankful post over the suicide bombing at Ayatollah Khomeini's tomb post a while back.

You confuse me with other posters.
I do not recollect posting in that thread.

We seem to have different definitions about what "proof" is.
Anecdotes are not proof.
But I will leave you for now because we are going in circles, indeed.
Let the readers decide.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

@Oxymandias, you live in Iran; that's one of the major Muslim majority countries they didn't poll. And that's probably because Iran is a literal theocracy, with an infamous religious police (they didn't poll Saudi Arabia either, suffering from the same problem). So, yes, in your country you can't speak your mind for fear of the law, and you'd be wise not to trust a pollster. But you can't assume that other Muslim-majority countries are as strict as yours - they don't have such an extensive apparatus for violent enforcement of religious dogma.

I think you've completely misunderstood the story, as well. You claim that "the citizens" "protested for his release. The government then had the "Facebook blasphemer" was released", and that your "sources are in the article you posted". No, they're not. There's no mention at all in that article of citizens protesting for his release (it just say "human rights campaigners have expressed concern", mentioning one in Pakistan who talked to the BBC). It doesn't say he was released. There is no report anywhere claiming he's been released. Your claims about the story are just false.

The claim by the writer you linked to - that the populations in so many Muslim countries regard their governments as such authoritarian fundamentalists that they have to parrot the official lines about murdering people for religious reasons (but which they don't really believe) - is hardly encouraging even if it's true. It would indicate there are many theocracies around after all.

[neopagan]

@neopagan

That isn't a blasphemy case. It's only a blasphemy case in a Middle Eastern country. So if you really want to do better than them you have to go to a Middle Eastern country and actually say it out loud in public instead of sitting at your laptop in you air conditioned home, being able to use your free speech and not get killed over it.

However that takes actual balls which you have none of.

You miss the point, which is that Islam deserves to be insulted for its "prehistoric" insistence that only its perception of the Universe is true, and therefore capable of being blasphemed. If you do not believe that to be the case, then by all means indulge in personal insults, while supporting the spread of ignorance and superstition.

[SolarCross]

It would indicate there are many theocracies around after all.

I don't think it is possible to separate the beliefs of the people from the beliefs of the governors. The more numerous Muslims (or any ideologist) are within a polity the more they will influence the principles and methods of the enforcement of law to their liking.

If the King of Saudia Arabia privately had an epiphany and became an atheist, do you think he could or would do anything substantial to alter basic legal modes of Saudi Arabia? If there was anyone safe from the consequences of apostasy it might very well be him but even he can't be safe if it became understood he was an apostate and certainly his influence would drop to nothing in a land full of Muslims.

And that's an absolute monarchy, for a democracy there is still less possibility of separating Islamic religious law from the actual practice of law by the state. The more muslims there will be the more they will be elected and / or dependant on the votes of muslims. The more media they will generate, the official posts they will hold, the more lawyers, judges and cops they will be.

The extent of the practice of sharia is proportional to the numbers of muslims present.

[Buzz62]

Because maybe the sort of people who want to migrate are most likely not of that ilk?

Didn't it ever occur to you that there's a reason why people want to move away from that backward culture and into a progressive one? I have never understood this argument that muslims coming to the west must necessarily be sinister and of the same mind as the backward culture they are abandoning. It frankly doesn't pass the common sense test.

"A website claiming to be the Danish Muslim Party (DAMP) published a “press release” in English and Danish, saying that Denmark will be the first Muslim nation in Europe."
http://speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.397/this-country-will-be-the-first-islamic-nation-in-europe-muslims-claim.html
Yes it has occurred to me and the idea concerns me deeply.
YOU don't pass the common sense test.
So many people are so willing to bury their lips deep up the backsides of Muslim people, while they migrate in droves to Europe BRINGING WITH THEM a desire to change our societies to suit their ideals.

Its past time to act on behalf or OUR culture and society!

[SolarCross]

Didn't it ever occur to you that there's a reason why people want to move away from that backward culture and into a progressive one?

Some people might be migrating for cultural reasons but most have economic interests. They come here for our wealth not our ideas.

[fuser]

Interesting thing here is that hardly anyone was hanged in Pakistan prior to late 80s for Blasphemy but over 70 (iirc) have been executed since then. Although the law came in late 60s, early 70s, it wasn't really enforced for much long.

So what changed? Culture, Society, Economy? No. Politics, where each political group (including non parliamentary groups) decided to become more avid defender of the faith than the closest defender to create a more entrenched position in political landscape fuming the fires of religious extremism which has brought this situation at present. And its not getting better and of course there is no real communist party in Pakistan since the purges of 50s to provide a counter balance like their neighboring countries in South Asia.

@Ter This is one of the many reasons I don't like Modi/BJP, I can see same process happening in this country, I don't want India to be like Pakistan just replace Islam with Hinduism.

[Barmakid]

Pakistan should be disbanded. It is a country beset by a deep identity crisis. They are mainly Indian Muslims (besides Pashtuns and Balochs who are Iranic and should have never been part of Pakistan in the first place) yet attempt to attach themselves to other ethnicities and cultures--Arab, Turkic, Persian, Afghan, etc. They even have cities named after Saudi rulers.

The rise in extremism in Pakistan is directly attributable to this identity crisis. They have brainwashed a generation of Afghan refugees and will continue to suffer for it yet brazenly maintain a distinction between "good" Taliban (Afghan Taliban) and "bad" Taliban (Pakistani Taliban).

[Oxymandias]

@Prosthetic Conscience

I didn't assume, I talked to many people who lived in other Middle Eastern countries and I even went to many of them. Some of them are more authoritarian than Iran (Iraq, Saudi Arabia) while others are less (Egypt, Lebanon) however all of them are authoritarian regimes and heavily deincentivize freedom of speech.

That, in fact, is true and I apologize for assuming so.

Yes, there are many theocracies after all. In fact, pretty much every Middle Eastern country would constitute as a theocracy if we are you look at it from it's literal definition. And that's the reality of it. @SolarCross explained this perfectly well. He also explained why democracy can not happen in the Middle East at all.

@neopagan

All religions think they are the only true religion. What, is Islam literally the only religion that you know about? Trust me it get's worse. There are a lot more religions that absolutely suck.

I don't care about whether or not Islam deserves to be insulted I don't care about you say about Islam. What I do care about is how you're essentially making fun of all those brave people who stood up against their governments by trying to make a "better blasphemy case" while sitting in your air conditioned home in your free speech haven. You will never be able to comprehend how scared those people who stand up for their free speech are but they do it anyways fully understanding the consequences. These people have more balls, no, they have more bravery and courage than you will ever have in your entire life.

And here you are deciding you can be better than them. I think we can both see what's wrong with that.

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

Anytime there is an extremely large amount of a religious group and a state religion bad things usually happen.

I absolutely agree. In order for democracy or any government in the Middle East to work we need social movements, ones that differentiate themselves from the West and disassociate themselves from them. The reason social movements do so badly in the Middle East is due to their association with the West. We also need a powerful Middle Eastern country to also export tolerant and nonpartisan forms of Islam such as Sufism (my personal favorite) in fact Sufism is probably the best sect to export. We also need to restart the scientific and academic communities in the Middle East and give them much more political power. In fact there are was to make the scientific and academic communities in the Middle East to be better than their western counterparts.

There are things to be done and they are possible. There just needs to be a small push towards that path.

[SolarCross]

Anytime there is an extremely large amount of a religious group and a state religion bad things usually happen.

Well to that I would say "bad" like "good" are subjective attributes, maybe to us it looks bad throwing someone in jail for blasphemy but to other people it looks like a very good thing. The issue for me is not so much calling out Islam as "bad" but calling it out as incompatible with how we do things very broadly in the "West".

Incidently it may surprise you to know that the UK has had a state religion since at least the 17th century, arguably since the 16th, to this day. Also arguably it has caused no problems at all, though some might say that is because it isn't a real religion, just sort of a fake religion that substitutes for it without actually being it, sort of like decaffeinated coffee or alcohol free beer.

I absolutely agree. In order for democracy or any government in the Middle East to work we need social movements, ones that differentiate themselves from the West and disassociate themselves from them. The reason social movements do so badly in the Middle East is due to their association with the West. We also need a powerful Middle Eastern country to also export tolerant and nonpartisan forms of Islam such as Sufism (my personal favorite) in fact Sufism is probably the best sect to export. We also need to restart the scientific and academic communities in the Middle East and give them much more political power. In fact there are was to make the scientific and academic communities in the Middle East to be better than their western counterparts.

There are things to be done and they are possible. There just needs to be a small push towards that path.

I think you misunderstood me a little. I was not saying that muslims can't do democracy I was saying that muslims in a democracy will make an Islamic democracy (if they can). So we get Erdogan out of Turkey, Hamas out of Palestine, Morsi (briefly) out of Egypt, and of course the Ayatollahs of Iran.

If you are a genuine muslim why indeed wouldn't you vote for genuine muslims with an true Islamic agenda?

[Oxymandias]

@SolarCross

I know. I actually felt "bad" was an insufficient word to use to describe this. I simply used it due to a lack of a better word. Well wouldn't all Abrahamic religions be considered to be incompatible with "the West" and "western values" however with Christianity it worked. I disagree with the idea of "the West" and that "western values" even exist at all.

I wouldn't call the UK a theocracy not because it isn't a real religion but because religion in the UK takes a backseat and isn't enforced at all. This is because the UK has the intellectual background that makes religion take a backseat.

Then it will transition into an authoritarian theocracy or an authoritarian theocracy with a democracy label slapped on it. That is often the most natural progression. The Islamic communities of the Middle East cannot do democracy currently in my opinion since culture in the Middle East needs to be reformed. Culture and socio-economic realities creates religion and so religion will be molded to fit that culture and socio-economic realities.

I don't understand what you mean by this. I thought you said that even if a secular ruler ruled over Saudi Arabia it wouldn't change anything?

Indeed.

[Buzz62]

If I may...

I know. I actually felt "bad" was an insufficient word to use to describe this. I simply used it due to a lack of a better word. Well wouldn't all Abrahamic religions be considered to be incompatible with "the West" and "western values" however with Christianity it worked. I disagree with the idea of "the West" and that "western values" even exist at all.

Is it necessary, as far as you're concerned Oxymandias, to have a strong religion guiding a society, in order to have "values"?
Does there need to be a Gawd figure-head at all?
Examples of Western Values...IMO:
1. Money (probably not a good thing but...it is what it is...)
2. Love (of all sorts for the most part)
3. Pleasure (within reason)
4. Hard Work
5. Individual Freedoms/Rights (either real or perceived)
6. Democratically elected leaders (not always ideal results but hey...consider the alternative)
7. Family
8. Diversity (this one some would debate but, I think it's an important value)
9. Strength
10. Education
11. Health
12. Golfing on Father's Day (possibly the most important western value... )
I'm sure there are many more, but I think you get the picture. Religion is not even a top-20 value for me. And you may feel free to re-order these in any way you like. Except number 12. If I valued Golf more than the others, my wife would make me very unhappy...

I wouldn't call the UK a theocracy not because it isn't a real religion but because religion in the UK takes a backseat and isn't enforced at all. This is because the UK has the intellectual background that makes religion take a backseat.

I think we're talkin' 'bout the Protestants and/or the Church of England...no?
Oxymandias, Education needs to be a value to the Muslim people. Or perhaps just valued a little more. Diversity provides an excellent source of education, which then has a wonderful effect on intellectual thinking.

Then it will transition into an authoritarian theocracy or an authoritarian theocracy with a democracy label slapped on it. That is often the most natural progression. The Islamic communities of the Middle East cannot do democracy currently in my opinion since culture in the Middle East needs to be reformed. Culture and socio-economic realities creates religion and so religion will be molded to fit that culture and socio-economic realities.

Why do you think I refer to GOD or ALLAH as "Gawd"? (aside from the comic value I mean)
Surprisingly perhaps, it's not really because I have no religious ideas or beliefs, because I do in my own way. But my education forces me to to acknowledge actual facts over some of the hokus-pokus the religions try to pawn off as truth. For instance, virgins don't generally produce children, and there are no virgins waiting for a religious warrior after death. Just to name a couple...

I don't understand what you mean by this. I thought you said that even if a secular ruler ruled over Saudi Arabia it wouldn't change anything?

Indeed.

A value that is likely universal, is POWER.
Some value it more than others, but we all value it. Whether we admit it to ourselves or not.
Western society found a way to come to the realization that real power rests with, as the Yankees like to put it, "We the people". It is the general populace that holds real power. Religions and their leaders USURP that power in the name of...your friend and mine...Gawd. Other people usurp power as well and do it in the name of a variety of excuses. But real power is in the hands of "We the people".

[Oxymandias]

@Buzz62

No and I never said that.

All those things are not Western specific. All those things are parts of what all humans value unless you want to tell me that ALL Middle Easterners and Chinese people do not value family, hard work, pleasure, strength, education, and diversity. Also diversity was only a "western value" until recently. Europe and America have had a very long history with racism from their beginnings in Greece and Rome. So diversity isn't it.

For your democracy value I guess you would have to exclude Europe which has had democracy only 60 years ago.

Ok, I don't care. I never said anything about religion being a value at all.

Yes we are.

The first literally thing you see in the Quran is to read and to think about the Quran critically. The Quran states that in order to be Muslim you need to have an education and that you are obligated to be educated regardless of who you are.

Also which "Muslim people" are you talking about? Do you mean Sunnis, Shi'as, Sufi's, Ismailis, Ahmadiyyais, etc.? Do you mean Syrians, Persians, Egyptians, Arabians, Lebanonians, Pakistanis, Afghans, Moroccans, Algerians, Libyans, Iraqis, etc.? So much for valuing diversity eh? I can't see how a person who values diversity would shove all Middle Easterners under "Muslim people" kind of stupid and pathetic isn't it?

How is that relevant to my post? What does that have to do with what I was saying? Are you drunk or something? Are you implying I am Muslim just because I said I was Iranian? So much for diversity I guess. I think you should lower diversity to the 100s because I can't see how anyone who values diversity to have such a close-minded view of the world.

WTF does this have to do with what I said. I was talking about how an atheist Saudi ruler would not be accepted by his people and now you're just ranting about democracy and the West and shit. And not only that but your description of power is so stupid and ignorant. You misunderstood why democracy is effective and democracy's problems. You just decided to simplify it into a black and white problem:

THE WAY POWA WORKS IS THAT RELIGIONS GET THAT POWA (There's no other way to get power for some fucking reason) AND THEN THEY TAKE IT FROM PEOPLE WHICH HAVE HTE REALS POWA YAAAAA!!!! RELIGION BAD PEOPLE GOOD!!!!

See how stupid you sound? I can get into the nuances of why you are wrong but I don't want to waste my time on you. You seem like someone who doesn't contribute to the discussion anyways.

[Rich]

According to the Pew Research Center, 76% of Pakistanis think that anyone leaving the religion of Islam should be put to death.

Interesting, because I think that any Muslims who believe that anyone leaving the religion of Islam should be put to death, should be put to death.

[Oxymandias]

@Rich

Well thank god the participants could've answered unhonestly.

Or do you want to kill millions of people that bad? If you want to do that then you should get your hands dirty. Why don't you go South in America, find a Muslim in a secluded southern town preferably with a christian and Trumpian majority, and murder him/her/the entire family. Sure you may be caught however since it's a secluded southern town your sentence wouldn't be that bad and since it's under a Trump administration the local government would feel that they could get away with giving you an easy sentence.

And if you want bonus points why don't you murder all of the muslims in that town or all the muslims in secluded towns with christian and Trumpian majorities? If you aren't willing to be change you believe in why believe in your beliefs at all? Take action! If you truely believe in the things you believe in you would actively participate in those beliefs!