Senate approves sanctions bill to punish Russia for meddling - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14814865
Those dang people who hate democracy and the rule of law and such! /sells weapons to the Saudis to kill Yemenis and Shias, gives weapons and money to Islamist rebels in Syria and bombs anti-Islamist forces in Syria
#14814867
Bulaba Jones wrote:/sells weapons to the Saudis to kill Yemenis and Shias, gives weapons and money to Islamist rebels in Syria and bombs anti-Islamist forces in Syria

You forgot the best part, we also sold weapons to Qatar, who is almost at war with the Saudis.

Because what could possibly go wrong...
#14814891
I didn't say that it was because democracy. :lol:

Putin is an opponent of the US's geopolitical interests and has made efforts to destabilize our politics. That is enough reason to not play nice with Russia.

In the long run we just have to wait for China and Russia to start attacking each other for influence in the region. In the short run fuck Putin.

Let's be realistic, we will give weapons to lots of people so long as they don't oppose our interests. Likewise we will not be friends with those that oppose those interests.

It's not about being nice or idealism or whatever other nonsense.
#14814894
mikema63 wrote:It's not about being nice or idealism or whatever other nonsense.


Exactly. This is why people mock the moralistic bullshit spewed by Western politicians, and even worse, by people who aren't politicians and genuinely believe it's about being nice, doing the right thing, being democratic and promoting freedom and all that nonsense. Our geopolitical interests often have little to do with democracy: our track record speaks volumes.

The irony is that the countries our bobblehead morons whine and complain about for being "opposed to freedom" like Russia and China have global interests that generally intersect with promoting growth and development in regions of the world we are hell-bent on sowing chaos, destruction, and reactionary rule. It's not a matter of right or wrong, good or evil, or being nice, but Russia, and China to a lesser extent, have supported stable governments in MENA which, regardless of being authoritarian or not, have worked to develop their nations, build infrastructure, and expand their productive powers. It's hard to find a justification against any of that. The US and the West, particularly Britain and France, have worked against that when it suits them. The major difference is how each side exploits the ones in the middle: we use child-raping rebels and "hard" exploitation, whereas Russia and China support authoritarian governments and use "soft" means.

This is why people mock this business with sanctions.
#14814895
Well actually it isn't always true that we don't invest in economies or always use dirty rebels.

We worked with Burma to improve their situation, incidentally with the help of business sanctions. We have positive economic developments in Africa and southeast Asia. Many of the countries that most positively view the US are in Africa and south east Asia.

Many people in Afghanistan actually hold surprisingly good opinions of us. We are at least better than the taliban. A poll from 2015 had 46% of the population (in areas that could be polled obviously) wanted us to increase our presence there.

About 76% of Vietnam view the US positively due to our support against Chinese control. We have a lot of support in the region for economic and security reasons.

My ultimate point is that it's not entirely fair to characterize the US as universally bad. It's certainly not universally good either. Just pragmatic, as is Russia and China.

We can be a force for good, occasionally.
#14814897
No, I did not say that we always destabilize every region. I was talking specifically about the MENA region and pointing out how this sanctions business is amusing considering our aggression abroad. We aren't an evil power, it's just that our national interests unfortunately are in bed with arming and supporting reactionaries in certain areas of the world, while simultaneously supporting stable, prosperous societies elsewhere.

We don't do these things in order to "do the right thing" or not. If it serves our apparent interests (regardless of how shortsighted, counterproductive, or stupid those interests might be) to create new cesspools in MENA, we'll go ahead with it. If it serves our interests to promote growth and development elsewhere, we'll sign off on it.
Last edited by Bulaba Jones on 16 Jun 2017 02:24, edited 1 time in total.
#14814908
mikema63 wrote:Yeah or general middle East policy is shit. I hope the next administration decides to use it's diplomatic resources to create a new middle East policy. Economic development can do wonders for our position.

Dont mind my slight flag waving speech.


That would be great if the middle East policy was totally changed but I really do not see that happening. It is like no one in the US government wants to do anything different and risk upsetting Israel. They don't mind upsetting Arabs though even if it means that terrorist attacks will increase as a result of our favoring Israeli causes and agendas.
#14814909
mikema63 wrote:Yeah or general middle East policy is shit. I hope the next administration decides to use it's diplomatic resources to create a new middle East policy. Economic development can do wonders for our position.

Dont mind my slight flag waving speech.


Major Western political parties show no sign of changing Middle East Policy. But economic incentives are not going to change anything in the Middle East either. Look how comfortable the Sauds are on oil money, yet they still support sneaky murderers. For us, its about money, to them its about Islam.
#14814911
neopagan wrote:Major Western political parties show no sign of changing Middle East Policy. But economic incentives are not going to change anything in the Middle East either. Look how comfortable the Sauds are on oil money, yet they still support sneaky murderers. For us, its about money, to them its about Islam.


It's about their tribal / clan power.
#14814932
I agree about being pessimistic and I don't think it is necessary because of Israel. The problem with Israel is simply one of the defense industry and the various business connections we have with them.

For the middle East the problem is that oil is so fundamentally important to our economy and price changes can do tons of political damage. lots of people don't like our middle East policy and the Saudis.

More would be very deeply unhappy about a recession and high gas prices.

Until we develop alternative energy to the point where oil is unnecessary things won't change.
#14814935
Obviously the 'rule-of-law' does not operate in America, no need to produce EVIDENCE to PROVE a case in a COURT OF LAW, just a typical 'Lynch-mob' mentality in the political court of prejudice, AKA the Senate.

I do NOT believe for one moment that reasonable Americans swallow the picture that's portrayed of Mr PUTIN.

Mr PUTIN is the ONLY 'STRONG & STABLE' political leader in the Northern hemisphere, he is also immune to American hegemony.

Remember, this latest ant-Russian sentiment is a result of OBAMA interfering in the UKRAINE & supporting the most CORRUPT regime in the Northern hemisphere.

America knows(despite Pentagon bravura)that it CANNOT 'Fcuk' around with Russia.

Russians are intelligent people, they see through American thoughts & actions.

I have no negativity against Americans in general, but politically America does NOTHING for anyone or country, UNLESS there is PROFIT to be gained.
#14814937
You heard nonsense, the American people would never buy that Putin isn't the bestest dude in all the lands.

Russia is a shit country with a shit leader and shit politics. The sooner Putin and the oligarchs are gone the better. Maybe then someone will let chechnya know they need to cut it with the sick shit they are doing to gay people.

Go back to watching RT comrade nonsense.
#14814945
Yeah, Putin is such an amazingly good leader. We need to all wear Putin face shirts.

Government officials know that Russia has been trying to hack into the government's networks for years. They do not like it one bit. And why should they?

I have no idea if any of the intrusions were successful prior to 2016-2017, but I know it has caused major annoyances and received some news coverage.
#14814962
mikema63 wrote:I didn't say that it was because democracy. :lol:

Putin is an opponent of the US's geopolitical interests...


The geopolitical interests of USrael is to finish Russia, this is even openly stated, so Putin does not have a lot of options.

mikema63 wrote:... and has made efforts to destabilize our politics.


That was an idiotic statement. Is USrael a banana republic that can be so easily destabilised, like so many states, recently destabilised by USrael?

mikema63 wrote:In the long run we just have to wait for China and Russia to start attacking each other for influence in the region. In the short run fuck Putin.


Russia and China are not governed by crazy idiots with global geopolitical "interests" who believe that it is in their geopolitical interests, to destroy each others. It seems that USrael is the only mentally sick man, Russia or China are governed by sane people.
So do not be too optimistic in your warmongering.

mikema63 wrote:Let's be realistic, we will give weapons to lots of people so long as they don't oppose our interests. Likewise we will not be friends with those that oppose those interests.


What do you mean with "our interests"?
Are the interests of USrael banksters, their Military–industrial complex, and the interests of Joe Sixpack really the same?

Who gets killed by these weapons?
I cannot remember that banksters are killed in big wars or killed by terrorists, who get the weapons.

Joe Sixpack gets killed with these weapons, that are payed by his taxes, and given to the terrorists.
Last edited by ArtAllm on 16 Jun 2017 17:01, edited 1 time in total.
#14814969
mikema63 wrote:Oh I'm sorry I couldn't read your post over the sound of your insane conspiratorial beliefs and racism.


If warmongers, who openly instigate hate against the Russian people, and who are non-stop talking about Russia destabilising USA, are accusing their opponents in being "racists" and in believing in "insane conspiracy theories", then this is like the kettle calling the pot black.

:D

Can you really not understand that you do not have any high moral ground?
You are just projecting your own deficits on your opponents!

Nonsense wrote:Remember, this latest ant-Russian sentiment is a result of OBAMA interfering in the UKRAINE & supporting the most CORRUPT regime in the Northern hemisphere.


Bingo! That was a real destabilisation of a country and an aggressive act against Russia.
It is insane to believe that USrael has geopolitical interests in the Ukraine, but Russia does not have any interests to have friendly neighbours and secure boarders.

Nonsense wrote:Russians are intelligent people, they see through American thoughts & actions.


Since the collapse of the Soviet Union Russia evolved according to eugenic principles, only high-IQ-people get the leading positions in the military and politics.

USrael evolved in the same period according to dysgenic principles: not the most intelligent people are promoted there, but politically correct affirmative actions candidates, because IQ is, according to USrael's neo-Commie political dogma, just a "social construct", like it is the case with men and women.

These [self censored] really believe, that if a sexually confused grown up man can go into the bath room of small girls, then this is their most essential "human right" that has to be forced upon other nations.

And what is most disturbing: these people cannot understand what they are doing, they are not only low-IQ-deviants, they are literally insane suicidal maniacs!
#14815010
It appears Germany is protesting this bill.

The Telegraph
Germany threatens retaliation if US pushes ahead with Russia sanctions it says could harm European economy

German leaders have reacted angrily to proposed new American sanctions on Russia they say target Moscow’s new gas pipeline to Europe, threatening retaliation if the measures harm the European economy.

The stand-off comes amid already strained relations with the US over Donald Trump’s aggressive rhetoric and provoked accusations that America was trying to promote its own gas exports to Europe by blocking Russia.

The result is a rumbling threat of a new energy war and a breakdown in trans-Atlantic unity against Russian aggression.

A spokesman for Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, said she was concerned by the new sanctions. “It is, putting it mildly, a peculiar move by the US Senate,” he said.

Senators insist their bill – passed on Thursday by a margin of 98 to two – is designed to punish Moscow for interfering in last year’s presidential election and limit Mr Trump’s ability to lift sanctions.

It includes punitive measures for anyone helping Russia build energy export pipelines.

The bill must still be approved by the House of Representative and President Trump, but already Berlin fears it could bring fines against European companies involved in Nord Stream 2, a project to build a pipeline carrying Russian gas under the Baltic Sea.

Brigitte Zypries, economy minister, accused Washington of abandoning a joint approach with Europe on sanctions against Russian and threatened retaliation if Mr Trump signed it into law.

“If he does, we'll have to consider what we are going to do against it,” she told Reuters.

It marks the latest area of conflict between Washington and Berlin since Mr Trump took power, following the US President’s criticism of Germany’s trade surplus, defence spending and his broader attacks on global co-operation.

The Nord Stream 2 pipeline is being built beneath the Baltic Sea to supply Russian gas to Germany and beyond. It avoids older routes through Ukraine, which have been disrupted by disputes between Kiev and Moscow.

In a joint statement, Sigmar Gabriel, the German Foreign Minister, and Christian Kern, the Austrian Chancellor, said European energy supplies were a matter for Europe not the US.

They accused the US of trying to elbow its way into the EU market to protect American jobs by deploying foreign policy for economic gain.

“To threaten companies in Germany, Austria and other European firms with fines in the US if they take part in or finance energy projects like Nord Stream 2 represents a new and negative dimension to US-European relations,” they said.

The bill is designed in part to make it more difficult for Mr Trump to lift sanctions imposed on Russia for annexing Crimea. As a candidate, he was vocal in his praise for Vladimir Putin, raising suspicions that once in office he would ease restrictions in return for Russian support.

It also introduces sanctions against anyone conducting cyberattacks on behalf of the Russian government, following evidence that Moscow was behind attempts to swing the presidential election in Mr Trump’s favour.

"The legislation sends a very, very strong signal to Russia, the nefarious activities they've been involved in," said Bob Corker, Republican chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee.
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