[Zionist Nationalist]

US was not able to win any war, putting the boots on the ground.
They are good in killing civilians with nuclear and conventional bombs, hiding in bombers, but they are shitty soldiers.
And why should they be so eager to die on the other side of the world?

The Vietnam war was a disaster for America, they got too much coffins. The Wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are also never ending disasters, but this time they learned how to hide the pictures of dead soldiers and coffins, and most killed are volunteers, who die after couple of months in a hospital, or kill themselves after they are back in the USA.

USA lost the proxy war with the Soviet Union in Vietnam, and the war in Iraq and Afghanistan seem to be proxy wars between the USA and RF, and I cannot see any victory of the USA.

A conventional direct war with Russia would mean an astronomical amount of coffins, shipped to the USA, and I doubt that they will find so many volunteers.

And American Normies will ask themselves: Why do we have to pay for crazy and unnecessary wars and die on the boarder with Russia, if we are unable to protect our own boarder with Mexico?

No Russian would ask these questions, because they know what they are protecting an why they are dying.

Russia is not having any proxy wars with the US in Iraq and Afghanistan because they dont have the money for such things
Vietnam war was a one time case the US could have won there they just had to sacrifice much more for it and it wasnt really worth it
and Russia have a declining population with an economy that is heavily dependent on oil and other natural resources market prices its a doomed economy in the long run

[LeshkaG]

The RF seeks to undermine the entire western liberal order.

How?

Of course we will come into conflict. So long as Putin uses the US and NATO as a domestic Boogeyman to maintain his political power he won't seek a good relationship.

I see on the contrary, many years the US is create the Russia as a Boogeyman by different fake news, movies, etc.
Still it is unclear why

[mikema63]

Putin has used the west as a Boogeyman to cover up the crappy economy. The Russians interfered in our elections, try to destabilize our allies, undermine NATO, undermine the EU, and otherwise throw western liberal multilateral institutions into dissaray.

The negative western press is in response to these things. Which are reasonable enough responses from a purely political point of view. The fact that you don't understand why the west would do this suggests that you should perhaps consider what your own government might be doing.

I mean you automatically assume that all the fake news is coming from us, and yet it was Russian bot networks which were shown to be spreading literally fake news stories during our election.

[Frollein]

I wonder if shooting down a US airplane would trigger article 5?

Ha! No. Article 5 is for defense purposes, not for you fucking up your overseas mission and expecting the rest to let themselve be dragged into your mess, too. For article 5 to happen on your behalf, you'd need another Pearl Harbour.

[mikema63]

Or a 9/11 I suppose.

[Decky]

Mossad might be too busy to do it again.

[Cookie Monster]

I wonder if shooting down a US airplane would trigger article 5?

Syria is not American territory, so an attack against a US plane flying over Syria would not trigger Article 5. Besides, Syria never gave consent to American flights over Syria, nor did Syria reach some sort of agreement or understanding. Presuming that Damascus gave its consent to Russia, it would be quite sound for Moscow to state that it acts on behalf of Syria's self-defence in a situation in which its forces target and shoot an American plane flying in Syrian territory.

[skinster]

Liberal victims are worse than the other right-wing's victims.

The real discussion that should be had, is how the US should get the fuck out of Syria since it's played a major part in its destruction so far; spending billions on arming sectarian terrorists from other countries to enter the country and go on killing sprees, in an effort to change the government because it refused to bend over to western, wahabi and zionist interests. This information was leaked in Clinton's emails, showing her involvement in yet another plan for regime change. The US should gtfo and stfu.

[mikema63]

Well, basically, it's not and it won't. Though at this point it's more out of sunk cost fallacy than any realistic chance at success.

[LeshkaG]

Putin has used the west as a Boogeyman to cover up the crappy economy. The Russians interfered in our elections, try to destabilize our allies, undermine NATO, undermine the EU, and otherwise throw western liberal multilateral institutions into dissaray.

The negative western press is in response to these things. Which are reasonable enough responses from a purely political point of view. The fact that you don't understand why the west would do this suggests that you should perhaps consider what your own government might be doing.

I mean you automatically assume that all the fake news is coming from us, and yet it was Russian bot networks which were shown to be spreading literally fake news stories during our election.

the crappy economy for Russia does the US and the European puppets by sanctions (by the way, to the detriment of itself) Also the West publishes many fake news...
Of course it is logical, Putin used the west as a Boogeyman.

Russians didn't interfere with your elections, it is a big fake! How Russia tries to undermine NATO? Russia has concluded the contract for example, with France, for purchase of their warships (Mistral) - US has ordered/has pressured to French... French have refused the transaction (have spoiled the reputation) Look like for me, in the past the NATO ruled by US and still now. NATO approaches every year borders of Russia, it frightens Russians. How Russia destabilize NATO - unclear.

How Russia destabilize the EU? Russia wants to construct (for own money) a gas pipe to Europe, for cheap gas. Americans interfere with it, speak to Europeans - you can't depend on the Russian cheap gas, buy our expensive shale gas and depend from us is better!


Your fake news from your government which they declare publicly and all western central media equally repeat it.(just like communist was ) For example when have shoot down the Malaysian Boeing, at once all have blamed for Russia or the pro-Russian rebel, but the investigation goes 3 years and isn't finished yet. It isn't known, there are disputes from all party who was a shot - Ukrainian or rebels or Americans have ordered to Ukrainians...

[mikema63]

the crappy economy for Russia does the US and the European puppets by sanctions (by the way, to the detriment of itself)

The Russian economy fell with gas prices which preceeded sanctions.

Also the West publishes many fake news...

So you've said, implying that it's a government op, yet it's your country whose leader owns and controls your media outlets. Let me try and think which government would more easily produce fake news for government purposes...

Of course it is logical, Putin used the west as a Boogeyman.

Not entirely sure what you are saying here. Are you agreeing with me that he's doing it for political purposes because that was my point. Not that we are in particular out to "get" Russia.

Russians didn't interfere with your elections, it is a big fake!

To put it succinctly, bullshit.

Russian agents were found to be hacking into voting systems, targeting election officials, and using stolen data and other ops to influence the election. Frankly at this point the denial deserves little more than an .

How Russia tries to undermine NATO?

By threatening military action if Sweden joins, invading and annexing Crimea when you lost control of Ukraine, etc. Etc.

Russia has concluded the contract for example, with France, for purchase of their warships (Mistral) - US has ordered/has pressured to French... French have refused the transaction (have spoiled the reputation) Look like for me, in the past the NATO ruled by US and still now. NATO approaches every year borders of Russia, it frightens Russians. How Russia destabilize NATO - unclear.

Well, you accidently answered the question of why Russia tries to destabilize NATO. What's funny though is that NATO is a defensive not an offensive alignment. Russia should only be afraid of NATO encroachment if it plans to invade a potential NATO country.

How Russia destabilize the EU? Russia wants to construct (for own money) a gas pipe to Europe, for cheap gas. Americans interfere with it, speak to Europeans - you can't depend on the Russian cheap gas, buy our expensive shale gas and envy from us better!

Gas prices are a global market. Shale gas isn't more expensive than Russian gas because all gas has the same price. The US has tried to develop oversea routes so that Europe doesn't have to be threatened by the possibility of Russia cutting off the pipes in case of war.

Russia targets eu stability in the same way it went after the US, information warfare.

Your fake news from your government which they declare publicly and all western central media equally repeat it.(just like communist was ) For example when have shoot down the Malaysian Boeing, at once all have blamed for Russia or the pro-Russian insurgents, but the investigation goes 3 years and isn't finished yet. It isn't known, there are disputes from all party who was a shot - Ukrainian or rebels.

If this is your example then it's pretty clear the US is doing a shit job. Most Americans don't even remember this event. Much less blame Russia for it.

[skinster]

So you've said, implying that it's a government op, yet it's your country whose leader owns and controls your media outlets. Let me try and think which government would more easily produce fake news for government purposes...

6 corporations own 90% of the media you consume, that is why you cheerlead for your government, even though it and its allies are the ones committing crimes in Syria.

[mikema63]

I don't support intervention in Syria. I don't support Israel.

It's not good enough for you but I mean whatever.

Most of the media America consumes is online and doesn't come from large news corporations. They get it from small media outlets through social media. Which is what made us vulnerable to the use of fake news from tiny bullshit sites incidentally. They also get news from foreign outfits which includes aljazera and RT.

Acting like most people still watch news through traditional media like it's the 60s is asinine. Telling me I do is ridiculous since I don't have any TV service at all.

[skinster]

ITT you're cheerleading for neocon wars. Where do you think that's coming from? Because it obviously doesn't serve you.

[mikema63]

Edit: thought this was a different thread suddenly for no reason.

I am against intervention in Syria.

[skinster]

If that were the case, the first thing you would do is oppose your government's intervention ITT, not talk about how to fuck with Russia, since the Russian army was invited to Syria and the US is not.

[mikema63]

Ok sure, I'm secretly not against intervention because I also don't like Russia.

ITT skinster literally makes shit up about me.

[skinster]

[LeshkaG]

The Russian economy fell with gas prices which preceeded sanctions.

Experts of the World Bank explain delay of growth of economy of Russia in 2013 with low investment in connection with geopolitical tension in Ukraine. (sanctions for the Crimea) In 2014 there was a further decrease in growth rates of economy for same reason.
At the end December, 2014, prices of oil began to fall.
In 2015 the economy of Russia has entered with the same problems: the decreasing prices of oil and saving economic sanctions. (from wikipedia)

Just as I spoke earlier - crappy economy for Russia does the US and the European puppets by sanctions (by the way, to the detriment of itself)

So you've said, implying that it's a government op, yet it's your country whose leader owns and controls your media outlets. Let me try and think which government would more easily produce fake news for government purposes...

I have said - West publishes many fake... The western media submit - to Washington. They write everything what Washington say , no other opinion. Like these communists did, now so do the US. Total control of media! In Russia, really some media belong to the government. As RT for example. RT doesn't publish fakes, but criticizes, sometimes, policy of the USA. In Russia there are a lot of western media which criticize the government of Russia and do false news.

Not entirely sure what you are saying here. Are you agreeing with me that he's doing it for political purposes because that was my point. Not that we are in particular out to "get" Russia.

I don't see anything bad or unusual that the president or other politician uses some media in political goals. But if these media report the invented fakes against someone as in the USA, since a pre-election race of Trump for example, (the whole world saw as the western media even before Trump's elections, attacked only him) or without evidential accusing someone, such as, the western media have accused Assad allegedly he has used chemical weapon - it is called control and dictatorship. In the USA a full control and dictatorship over central media!

To put it succinctly, bullshit.

NO man it is a fact!

Russian agents were found to be hacking into voting systems, targeting election officials, and using stolen data and other ops to influence the election. Frankly at this point the denial deserves little more than an .

This invention a fake from Trump's opponents. They attack him for a long time.

By threatening military action if Sweden joins, invading and annexing Crimea when you lost control of Ukraine, etc. Etc.

Russia didn't threaten Sweden. You have invented it. In Ukraine everything has begun with bloody 'revolution' it support by US and some western leaders. The Crimea is secondary, a consequence on aggressive actions of the West to Ukraine. The USA and the West, have interfered with internal affairs of Ukraine and have supported the illegal regime.

Well, you accidently answered the question of why Russia tries to destabilize NATO. What's funny though is that NATO is a defensive not an offensive alignment. Russia should only be afraid of NATO encroachment if it plans to invade a potential NATO country.

The countries of NATO are forbidden to sell military equipment for Russia? Russia has begun destabilization of NATO? Prior to events in Ukraine, Russia bought a lot of military equipment in NATO countries. For example the Iveco LMV in Italy, in France Russia bought also much and military electronics and engines for aircraft, etc. I think that many western countries are afraid of sanctions from the US...

Ga s prices are a global market. Shale gas isn't more expensive than Russian gas because all gas has the same price. The US has tried to develop oversea routes so that Europe doesn't have to be threatened by the possibility of Russia cutting off the pipes in case of war.

Gas from Russia, which closer from Europe, to deliver simply on pipes cheaper, than from the USA - thousand kilometers by the ship.
Russia will be at war with Europe? Who has told you it? Russians and Europeans don't want it.

Russia targets eu stability in the same way it went after the US, information warfare.

Unfortunately some European countries, do information war against Russia, it is worse than the US

If this is your example then it's pretty clear the US is doing a shit job. Most Americans don't even remember this event. Much less blame Russia for it.

Of course Americans don't remember and don't want to see someone else's tragedies, know all this...

[ArtAllm]

Russia is not having any proxy wars with the US in Iraq and Afghanistan because they dont have the money for such things

Money is not everything, if somebody lost his brain, then money cannot save him.

Vietnam war was a one time case the US could have won there they just had to sacrifice much more for it and it wasnt really worth it

The same with wars that USA is fighting today, they do not have money to create jobs in the USA, their infrastructure is crumbling, they do not have money for a wall, but they are spending trillions on crazy wars and sacrifice the lives of Americans for nothing.

What to the demographic decline and degeneracy: Putin managed to stop the trend and even reverse it. In the USA and the West the same problems accelerate.

The critical point is motivation. In Russia Russians are ready to sacrifice everything in a war. In the USA and the West you have to rely on mercenaries and corrupt politicians in a war that is not the interests of the Joe Sixpack.

No money, no support!

Syria is not American territory, so an attack against a US plane flying over Syria would not trigger Article 5. Besides, Syria never gave consent to American flights over Syria, nor did Syria reach some sort of agreement or understanding. Presuming that Damascus gave its consent to Russia, it would be quite sound for Moscow to state that it acts on behalf of Syria's self-defence in a situation in which its forces target and shoot an American plane flying in Syrian territory.

Yep, we have just another obvious act of American aggression, but the warmongers still believe that they have the moral high ground.
I can respect people who bluntly say that we are instigating hate against Russia and are committing acts of aggression because it is in "our" interst.
But these guys never say whose interests they are talking about.

In any case, this crazy globalist warmongering is not in the interests of "American deplorables", they did not vote for these crazy things.