[Rugoz]

Call it the Middle East like a normal person. Why do you need to call it the Muslim world?

.

Because the "Middle East" doesn't cover all countries with similar issues in the region. "Muslim world" is more appropriate.

And you're making no sense. First off, socio-economic factors control culture and culture controls religion since religion is a social construct.

Well that's just your opinion. In my view overcoming religious dogma is very difficult. In fact the whole point of appealing to a higher power that stands above any earthly power in terms of knowledge, goodness etc. is to make the religious text sacrosanct and immune to changes. It's in the very nature of (Abrahamic) religions. Sure, interpretations can change, but they lag behind social progress.

You do realize that Islam is anti-forced conversion right? "No compulsion in religion" as the Quran states apparently.

Conservation not conversion. Read, think, write. In that order. There's another guy from the ME here that tends to skip the first 2 parts (note how I said ME ).

No. Religion was never the main reason for a conflict at all...

I'm sure every historian on this planet would disagree expect maybe a tiny group of Marxists.
But again, I don't see it as relevant, believe what you want.

I won't respond to the rest of your post. You deliberately misinterpret/ignore what I'm saying. I don't have time for such childish nonsense.

[Oxymandias]

@Rugoz

The only region relevant here is the Middle East. That is where refugees are coming from and that is where most of the conflict is going on. The rest of the world does not suffer from conflicts such as these. If you are to talk about parts of the world which contain Middle Eastern culture than please used the term "Greater Middle East".

That isn't an opinion. There is evidence that socio-economic factors are by far the greatest influences of a civilization. Religious dogma is easy to overcome since it will be forced to change by culture which in turn is forced to change through the socio-economic environment of the area. Religion is nothing more than a vague book, it will be reinterpreted to fit the society of it's area. I can show you thousands of examples of this in history. Religion can lag behind social progress but social progress won't stop for it. Social progress is a product of a certain set of economic conditions that contribute to the progress of society (for example, industrialization). The Middle East did not get to this point.

I know. You said conversion which means to convert. Islam does not force people to convert to Islam. Are you sure you understand English? Conservation means to conserve which means to save or protect.

I stated my reasoning afterward. You just seemed to ignore it since you can't refute it. I also never stated it was never a main reason, I explored this in my later paragraphs which you also seem to ignore.

Your statements were vague to begin with and you refuse to clarify them. If you find that I am misinterpreting your statements show me proof that I am in fact doing so and tell me what you really mean.

Also next time, instead of taking single sentences and responding to that, respond to my entire post. If to you it's "childish nonsense" then this should be a fun waste of time for you. If not then you can't refute my points.

Your obsession to seem superior by touting my post as childish nonsense shows a large amount of emotionally immaturity.

[Rich]

What you are describing is the bien pensant conformism of the middle classes. Not content with being socially and financially 'superior', the middle classes feel the need to also be morally superior too. Sartre pointed this out in his trenchant Saint Genet. This is why most SJWs are solidly middle-class. They actually don't give a fuck about persecuted or oppressed minorities, they just want that warm fuzzy middle-class glow that comes from being morally superior to the oiks. They have no real beliefs or principles of their own, nor have they devoted any real thought to the complex issues involved. They just adopt whichever beliefs or values they think will gain them the approval of their fellow middle-class wankers. Piers Morgan is a prime example of that sort of bien pensant, patronising bourgeois liberal.

I'm sick to the back teeth of Middle Class (or upper class) lefties complaining about the Middle Class. Maybe you are working class, but Marxist organisations have been dominated by Middle and Upper class people accusing each other of being Petit bourgeois. The history of Marxism is all about the leadership of Middle and Upper Class people going right back to Marx and Engels themselves. When you do get people of working class origin in positions of leadership they've almost always received an education that has made them culturally middle class.

You seem blind to the possibility that Marxism is itself a form of virtue signalling. Conformism and virtue signalling are human traits, present in all classes, as are the nobler traits that you seem to project on to the working class

[Rugoz]

That isn't an opinion. There is evidence that socio-economic factors are by far the greatest influences of a civilization. Religious dogma is easy to overcome since it will be forced to change by culture which in turn is forced to change through the socio-economic environment of the area. Religion is nothing more than a vague book, it will be reinterpreted to fit the society of it's area. I can show you thousands of examples of this in history. Religion can lag behind social progress but social progress won't stop for it. Social progress is a product of a certain set of economic conditions that contribute to the progress of society (for example, industrialization). The Middle East did not get to this point.

I never questioned the importance of socioeconomic factors. I said religion slows down social progress, because I consider it to be a conservative force (I'm not the only one who thinks that way by the way). Since religion and culture are so closely intertwined, I don't see how one can statistically determine cause and effect. That's why I argued with the very nature of (Abrahamic) religion. You position, namely that culture influences religion and not vice versa, and that the interpretation of religion can always be readily adjusted to any cultural changes, is certainly extreme though. I don't think many (if any) Muslim scholars would agree with that, though they're obviously biased.

I know. You said conversion which means to convert. Islam does not force people to convert to Islam.

For the third time, I wrote conservation, not conversion. Go back to the post, it's there, black on white.

Also next time, instead of taking single sentences and responding to that, respond to my entire post. If to you it's "childish nonsense" then this should be a fun waste of time for you. If not then you can't refute my points.

Strong words from somebody who never quotes my posts ever, even though it's the most trivial thing in the world. As for leaving stuff out, I will certainly do so if I feel it's non-essential and not interesting to me. As for "can't refute your points", I won't refute your strawmen.

[Oxymoron]

Yep, this is the victim's fault.

Meanwhile in America, a young Muslim girl was abducted and beaten to death over the weekend. She obviously deserved it.

you must know that honor killings will do that, finally you are understanding your own barbarian people.

[skinster]

That wasn't an honour killing. Google is your friend.

[Oxymandias]

@Rugoz

Ah yes, since that's exactly why you said that Islam perpetuates the current conflicts of the Middle East and given that you didn't add any other reasons why the Middle East could be potentially in such conflicts and because you continue to assert that religion can be the main source of conflict, the only thing I can interpret is that you think Islam is the core reason for conflicts in the Middle East. This is the only interpretation in which you do not contradict yourself.

If religion and culture were in a symbiosis then there wouldn't be such a great divide between atheists and theists. And there wouldn't be atheists to begin nor any social progress that goes against religion. However this is not the case. Culture continues on with or without religion regardless of what happens. Eventually culture catches onto religion and forces it to mold itself for culture.

I don't give two fucks about what Muslim scholars think. Muslim scholars are just a bunch of hypocrites who sit around all day talking about how horrible the world is and saying extremist shit while sitting around in their harems and drinking beer. And I don't see what's so extremist about culture influencing religion more than the other way around. It's perfectly reasonable and can be seen throughout history and even today.

That is in fact, edited. I also find your willingness to post a link of your post through a hyperlink despite doing so being a tiring experience shows that you are excited to show something i.e. you're very clever edit.

Now I can be wrong and just be hallucinating and I can admit that. However I would like you to know that you don't really "win" from doing that. There's nothing that changes. All your doing is misrepresenting your political beliefs which will lead to more confusion. If you wish for me to understand your political beliefs than please refrain from editing. Of course you never clarified your political beliefs to begin with.

I don't know how to quote. No one told me how to do it and when I even asked you, you didn't respond back. At all.

The only "strawmen" that existed were in the first and last paragraphs. You even responded to that "strawmen" in your post so I have no idea why you refuse to respond to the rest of them.

[Rugoz]

Ah yes, since that's exactly why you said that Islam perpetuates the current conflicts of the Middle East and given that you didn't add any other reasons why the Middle East could be potentially in such conflicts and because you continue to assert that religion can be the main source of conflict, the only thing I can interpret is that you think Islam is the core reason for conflicts in the Middle East. This is the only interpretation in which you do not contradict yourself.

I said religion can be the main source of conflict. I didn't say when or where it was, or that it was currently the case in the GME (though I mentioned the religious wars in Europe between Catholics/Protestants as a place/time). I can give you socioeconomic reasons for the mess in the GME, but that is besides the point of this debate. Islam is certainly one reason for the mess to me. In the greater scheme of things not the main one though.

I don't give two fucks about what Muslim scholars think. Muslim scholars are just a bunch of hypocrites who sit around all day talking about how horrible the world is and saying extremist shit while sitting around in their harems and drinking beer. And I don't see what's so extremist about culture influencing religion more than the other way around. It's perfectly reasonable and can be seen throughout history and even today.

Muslim scholars may be hypocrites, but they are arguably influental and not irrelevant. I agree with the bolded part. But you denied "the other way" altogether. If not, there's no disagreement.

That is in fact, edited. I also find your willingness to post a link of your post through a hyperlink despite doing so being a tiring experience shows that you are excited to show something i.e. you're very clever edit.

Holy moly . Now that is some hilarious shit.
You realize there's a "last edited by NAME at TIME" at the bottom of a post that has been edited?
Why would I do that and pretend the opposite?? Jeeeeeeesus.

Relax. Ignore dumb Rugoz on the internet. Have a smoke. Whatever.

I don't know how to quote. No one told me how to do it and when I even asked you, you didn't respond back. At all.

There's a button at the top right of every post. Just click on it and the corresponding post will be quoted. There's even a tooltip when you hover over it.

[Oxymoron]

[Zag Note: Please leave bickering out of the thread]

[Oxymandias]

@Rugoz

I said religion can be the main source of conflict. I didn't say when or where it was, or that it was currently the case in the GME (though I mentioned the religious wars in Europe between Catholics/Protestants as a place/time). I can give you socioeconomic reasons for the mess in the GME, but that is besides the point of this debate. Islam is certainly one reason for the mess to me. In the greater scheme of things not the main one though.



Muslim scholars may be hypocrites, but they are arguably influental and not irrelevant. I agree with the bolded part. But you denied "the other way" altogether. If not, there's no disagreement.



Holy moly . Now that is some hilarious shit.
You realize there's a "last edited by NAME at TIME" at the bottom of a post that has been edited?
Why would I do that and pretend the opposite?? Jeeeeeeesus.

Relax. Ignore dumb Rugoz on the internet. Have a smoke. Whatever.



There's a button at the top right of every post. Just click on it and the corresponding post will be quoted. There's even a tooltip when you hover over it.

1. And I said that it isn't and that there is no proof that this is the case. You said that Islam perpetuates the current condition of the Middle East and you gave no other reasons other than this. To say that Islam cause the current conflict of the Middle East and mention no other reasons for conflict can lead to people questioning whether or not you truely believe what you are in fact saying.

2. But then why mention them at all? It seems that you mentioned them solely to use them as evidence against my point for whatever reason. You're definitely not the type to use the words of religious scholars as a means of evidence against my point.

I was the one who said that although religion significantly influences culture, culture influences religion more.

3. I never knew that. I apologize maybe I did hallucinate or something.

4. Thank you for the information.

[Oxymoron]

Yes, you can't keep this Homie out. Unlike Spain kicking Khazars out, during Queen Isabella reign(RIP).

After throwing the fine Hebrew folk out, the Empire soon fell apart due in main part to their fiscal irresponsibility. You cant blame the Spaniards for their lack of scruples, as they did have the Moors there for a while, must have messed with gene pool.

[Juice]

After throwing the fine Hebrew folk out, the Empire soon fell apart due in main part to their fiscal irresponsibility. You cant blame the Spaniards for their lack of scruples, as they did have the Moors there for a while, must have messed with gene pool.

So it's bad when Browns kill Khazars, good when Whites do it? Ok, I see why you allow Alt Right to kill Jews, maybe that's should be the solution; Let the Whites and Khazars kill each other.

[Prosthetic Conscience]

Just to stop the bullshit @Oxymoron is trying to spread for some reason, no, it wasn't an honour killing:

Suspect in killing of Muslim teen had been accused of a previous assault, report says

A week before Darwin Martinez Torres was arrested for allegedly abducting and killing a Muslim teenager near a Virginia mosque, a woman arrived at a hospital emergency room and reported that a man — later identified as Martinez Torres — had punched, choked and sexually assaulted her and was a member of the MS-13 street gang, according to two people familiar with the woman’s account.

The acts allegedly occurred in the presence of a young child, which prompted a call to Loudoun County’s Child Protective Services agency, which in turn filed a report with the county sheriff, the two people said.

But the woman told CPS that she did not want to pursue charges or accept any social-services help, and so no further action was taken. Days later, 17-year-old Nabra Hassanen was dead.

Details from the CPS report made June 12 on the woman’s claims were read to a Washington Post reporter. An official for CPS declined to comment.

Martinez Torres, a 22-year-old construction worker, is being held in the Fairfax County jail, charged in Nabra’s slaying. The case has drawn national attention and questions about whether it could have been a hate crime.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/pu ... b4688603bc

[Decky]

Well what a surprise Oxy was making stuff up. I wouldn't blame him, I expect his orders came from Tel Aviv.

[Oxymoron]

Just to stop the bullshit @Oxymoron is trying to spread for some reason, no, it wasn't an honour killing:

Excellent...thank you for playing into my hand.... a MS13 illegal killed a Muslim and is blamed on America

Now for some real news:

Wednesday's horrific death of a 17-year-old Pakistani girl who was burned alive allegedly by her mother for eloping with a man has shed renewed light on the dark world of honor killings.

Department of Justice estimated in its 2014 report that based on U.S. demographics, 23 to 27 honor killings occur in the country each year. But because of inadequate tracking systems that fail to collect necessary information on homicides, there is no reliable summary of honor killings in the U.S.


So spare me the islamophobia bs... thanks Prost for letting me make a fool out of the barbarian She Mugal

[Buzz62]

Excellent...thank you for playing into my hand.... a MS13 illegal killed a Muslim and is blamed on America

Well done Oxy

Now for some real news:

Wednesday's horrific death of a 17-year-old Pakistani girl who was burned alive allegedly by her mother for eloping with a man has shed renewed light on the dark world of honor killings.

Department of Justice estimated in its 2014 report that based on U.S. demographics, 23 to 27 honor killings occur in the country each year. But because of inadequate tracking systems that fail to collect necessary information on homicides, there is no reliable summary of honor killings in the U.S.


So spare me the islamophobia bs... thanks Prost for letting me make a fool out of the barbarian She Mugal

Ya I'm sorry but these people have no place in western society.
I know many will howl that "it's only a few, misguided people" or some such other excuse, but its pretty gawd-damn obvious that these people are simply incapable of assimilation. And a big part of the reason for that is their religious beliefs.

If I go to their world, I am expected to follow their rules or be stoned to death.
As I'm a little less barbarous then that, I want all Muslim refugees returned to sender.

[Oxymoron]

Well what a surprise Oxy was making stuff up. I wouldn't blame him, I expect his orders came from Tel Aviv.

Jerusalem actually.

[skinster]

Well what a surprise Oxy was making stuff up. I wouldn't blame him, I expect his orders came from Tel Aviv.

So spare me the islamophobia bs... thanks Prost for letting me make a fool out of the barbarian She Mugal

I assume you're referring to me here

Dunno how you made a fool out of me since I and others pointed out that the thing you claimed was an honour killing in the US, actually wasn't.

I mean, nice work! You got me.

[Oxymoron]

:D



I assume you're referring to me here

Dunno how you made a fool out of me since I and others pointed out that the thing you claimed was an honour killing in the US, actually wasn't.

I mean, nice work! You got me.

I knew the details of this crime, and wanted someone else to point them out for me to give more credibility as to the source for you anti Semites, as anything I wrote would be viewed as Jew bias. Now as far as me making a fool of you...that is not hard... in this case, you gave an incident to demonstrate Islamophobia, But the facts are that the killer was an illegal MS13 gang-banger ..... Now you who love your muslims so much never mention or decry the thousands of "honor" murders by your barbarian kind.

[skinster]