Islamic world condemns liberal mosque in Berlin - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14820401
@anasawad

Based on the fact that the link doesn't seem to contradict what I said, may I ask, do you agree with my post? Do you at least agree with parts of it?

Also I recommend that you make a new topic instead of posting on this topic. I'm afraid that we might get a little off topic.
#14820421
@Oxymandias
It does. You're saying that the average Lebanese person is half Arab. What various genetic studies shows including the Nat Geo genographic study one, is that Lebanese people along with the Palestinians and other groups along the Mediterranean mainly in Tunis and Spain share a common genetic ancestors. i.e the Phoenicians. They mixed with other groups but never the less its still there.
For the study you're talking about, it showed that just as commonly known between people in Lebanon.
Muslims and specifically Sunni Muslims are either Arabs or highly mixed with Arabs. While Christians and other groups are only slightly mixed with Arabs.
Everyone is slightly mixed with everyone else at this day and age. So it doesn't make much here.

For the rest of your post now.

Let us first talk about the original Arab culture, Bedouin Arab culture. Bedouin Arab culture is nomadic, tribal, and had common law through honor codes. Of course a lot of if not all these attributes entered many of the cultures the Bedouins conquered. However lots Bedouin culture wasn't excluded from influence of other cultures and was fundamentally influenced by the cultures it interacted with. For example, Persian culture was a very big influence on Bedouin culture and these influences include an emphasis on urbanism, mysticism (the Bedouins were also mystic however it was a different sort of mysticism from Persian mysticism which they inherited), art particularly the miniature, architecture, clothing, and administration. These influences are the things that changed Bedouin culture into what is often considered to be Arab culture.


This is historically not factual.
Bedouin Arab traditions does exist, but its not nomadic. There were nomad Arabs but the overwhelming majority of Arabs were living in small and medium cities. And by the time Islam showed up, they've had already lived for centuries in cities. The difference between Arabs and others back then is that they simply didn't have many large kingdoms or empires, because it was not possible to maintain the logistics of conquering the various independent cities of Arabia when those cities usually rose on the only water sources in their respective areas while between them was just a vast water-less desert.
When Islam showed up in Medina and the defeated Mecca, it spread to the rest of Arabia first because it took the center of trade -Mecca- and second because it put focus on helping the poor. Which Arabia had many poor people and just a few rich ones to keep them down. Basically the rulers of Arabia had a choice between joining Islam and the nation of Islam or face a soon peasant or slave uprisings incited by the Muslims.

Even though Bedouins Arabized their conquered territory in terms of language and values, the feeling was certainly mutual. Arab culture was also significantly influenced by the cultures it conquered. I may argue even more than how much it influenced other cultures.

Arab culture was being changed but not by those in which it conquered but by Islam.
The people in the conquered regions became developed a new culture that is basically a mixture of their own, Arabic culture, and Islam. While the Arabs enjoyed the wealth taken from these empires and didn't really change much other than the initial change that came with the rise of Islam.


However Arab countries are very different from each other culturally.

They are, that came long after the Arab empires. Mainly during the Ottoman empire when each area was granted partial self governance and thus each started reviving their historical heritage slowly and gradually but nevertheless effectively.



Actually an interesting thing is that, during the height of the popularity of Baathism and Pan-Arabism, Lebanese people did in fact identify as Arab. Until the disasters that were Syria and Iraq and their negative effect on Lebanon happened this sentiment ended. Pan-Arabism is also being lost in countries such as Syria and replaced with Greater Syrian Nationalism.


Ok, don't take this the wrong way dude. But Lebanese people hate Syrians, and hate the Baath regimes, and they fought to the last bit of their lives so the greater Syria project doesn't stand.
When those Arab nationalists rose to power in Syria, they conquered Lebanon and butchered Lebanese people by the 10s of thousands. Not to mention keeping the country under military mandate for decades ending in 2005 only.
The only people in Lebanon who do love the Arabs and identify with them and still have this Arab nationalism are the Sunnis in Lebanon. The rest don't. Even now, the alliance between the Shias in Lebanon and the Syrians is that of convenience not of liking.
#14820436
@anasawad

That doesn't have to do with the current genetic makeup of the Lebanese, it talks about a certain set of DNA that is uniquely found in Lebanese people which still doesn't disprove my point at all. It's even a stretch to say that's related to it at all. In terms of views, we agree with each other. The only way to contradict my argument is to state Lebanese are Arabs because I was the one who said I agreed with you that Arabs probably have very little genetic influence in other Middle Easterners and that Middle Easterners are genetically diverse.

I don't understand what you mean by "just as commonly known between people in Lebanon"? The study stated that a scientific institution took hundreds DNA samples and advanced DNA analysis to find out the genetic makeup of these "Arab country's" native citizens.

Those are Sedentary Arabs, not Bedouins. Bedouins were the ones doing the actual conquering and cultural transformation and the ones who held real power over the region. If they weren't there wouldn't be such an emphasis of tribal identity along with every single Bedouin cultural custom in Arabia. It's either that or Sedentary Arabs and Bedouin Arabs have the same culture which could be true.

Yes, Islam was a significant influence but as I showed through the example above, Persian culture basically was the rulebook for anything secular or even spiritual for Arabs at the time. This is why the Arabian empires adopted Persian cultural traditions and ideas.

Why don't we do that again? Like why not have a united Middle Eastern confederation that has a similar system to the Swiss Canton system and the vertical meritocracy of China?

Hey, I don't like those regimes either... Why do you have to blame it on me? :(

I am aware. Now I tell me if this offends you or not: I do think that Baathism gets a bit misunderstood though. Original Baathist writings talk about uniting through cooperation and diplomacy and stress that Pan-Arabism (I think you are thinking of the Syrian Nationalist Party instead of Baathism) must be accomplished through peace.

I also think that this can be easily mended. For example, if Syria became stable, you could open trading with Lebanon and give them very good deals. This stable Syria can invest in Lebanese infastructure, help boost the Lebanese economy, and create cultural exchange programs as a form of diplomacy. The best case scenario is that, after a couple of generations, Lebanon and Syria are basically best buds.
#14821488
There is nothing liberal about those people. Those are related to the Gulen terrorists who attempted a coup in Turkey last year. This organization is directed by CIA and using them as a weapon against the Mid East governments which CIA wants to replace.

They escaped from Turkey last year and Turkish government wants The EU hand them back to Turkey. All these "liberal mosque" nonsense are for getting a permission to stay in there.
#14821500
Meh.

For my part, Turkish Diyanet and Egyptian Al-Azhar made judgmental error to issue their opinions on such a trivial matter.

"Ibn-Rushd-Goethe" mosque in Berlin.

Even its name shouts aloud it's either a fraud or another witless "assimilation" attempt by German authorities. Or perhaps, it's sole purpose is to invoke Muslim reaction. Who knows.

We Muslims should learn to be cool against this sort of idiotic provocations. I give you that.

As for the criticism against Turkish Diyanet and Egyptian Al-Azhar... Surely they are not perfect. They have much room to improve. Yet, as far as I know, they are the two biggest bastions of progressive Sunni Islam in the world.

Branding them as inhibiting forces standing against Islamic reformation is simply idiotic.

I am saying this as a nominal, non-practicing Turkish Muslim: I am glad that we have the Diyanet in Turkey.

If we had not, the vacuum would be filled by Wahabis, Salafis, and all sorts of lunatic sects ranging from ultra conservative Pakistani ones to this Ibn-Rushd-Goethe mosque in Berlin.

I would not try to undermine their position in Europe.
#14821504
Vanasalus wrote:"Ibn-Rushd-Goethe" mosque in Berlin.

Even its name shouts aloud it's either a fraud or another witless "assimilation" attempt by German authorities. Or perhaps, it's sole purpose is to invoke Muslim reaction. Who knows.


Oh look, a Turk with a conspiracy theory.

Vanasalus wrote:As for the criticism against Turkish Diyanet and Egyptian Al-Azhar... Surely they are not perfect. They have much room to improve. Yet, as far as I know, they are the two biggest bastions of progressive Sunni Islam in the world.


May be, but they're still reactionary bastards.

Vanasalus wrote:I am saying this as a nominal, non-practicing Turkish Muslim: I am glad that we have the Diyanet in Turkey.


I'm still a (non-practicing) member of the protestant church despite me thinking they're all crazy, at least they're not filthy Catholics or super-filthy Muslims. Same kind of thinking I guess. :)
#14821616
Rugoz wrote:a conspiracy theory.

It is not a conspiracy theory. We have experienced and saw with it very clear in Turkey.

The US and Europe have a long tradition of supporting extremist groups and terrorist organizations in other countries and regions to destabilize and keep them undeveloped. In other words, your country is one of the main supporters of terrorism worldwide.

YPG, SDF, ISIS, PKK, Al Qaeda, Wahhabism, terror groups in South America and many other terrorist organizations, which i cant remember now, have been being assisted by The West.

Both ISIS and YPG terrorists with US arms target our soldiers in FSA areas and on Turkey- Syria border.
#14821621
Istanbuller wrote:It is not a conspiracy theory. We have experienced and saw with it very clear in Turkey.


Wtf are you talking about? This is a liberal mosque, where women and men pray together and women are even allowed to hold prayer. All mosques should be like that.
I wish what Vanasalus said were true and the German government would be funding this. In fact liberal mosques should get all the funding they want while foreign funding, including Turkish funding, should be shut down completely.

Oxymandias wrote:Is the last statement sarcastic? I assume so.


No sarcasm.

I have been a member of the protestant church since birth. The Swiss protestant church is quite progressive, it supports gay marriage etc.. Assuming that human beings have an innate desire for superstitutious belief, then, given the lack of alternatives, I support Protestantism against Catholicism and Islam. You see I can be very pragmatic. Not that my contribution makes any difference :).
Last edited by Rugoz on 08 Jul 2017 18:49, edited 1 time in total.
#14821625
Rugoz wrote:Oh look, a Turk with a conspiracy theory.


To be a conspiracy theorist, one should be dealing with a complicated phenomenon wrapped up within mysterious circumstances. I see no conspiracy here. Just childishness as expected from any juvenile state formed as late as 1871.

Rugoz wrote:I'm still a (non-practicing) member of the protestant church despite me thinking they're all crazy, at least they're not filthy Catholics or super-filthy Muslims. Same kind of thinking I guess.

Debatable.

Yet utter lack of control, as in the case of American example, gives rise to lunatic Protestantism. Today, the most ferocious attacks to Theory of Evolution comes from American Protestantism, not from Vatican. As a matter of fact the latter has already embraced the theory.

Rugoz wrote:Wtf are you talking about? This is a liberal mosque, where women and men pray together and women are even allowed to hold prayer. All mosques should be like that. I wish what Vanasalus said were true and the German government would would be funding this. In fact liberal mosques should get all the funding they want while foreign funding, including Turkish funding, should be shut down completely.

Women and men did pray in the same mosque in the time of of Prophet Mohammad. And they still do. As long as women and men remain separated in the mosque. In Turkish example, most mosques are two story buildings. Ground floor is reserved for men, upper floor is reserved for women. Just like most of the Jewish synagogues around the world.

As for your rumblings about mosque funding... You present the perfect formula for replacing current mosques with underground Wahhabi mosques, which will undoubtedly generate countless number of ISIS/al Qaeda spawns.

You should known it better. Of course, if only you were better informed. ;)
#14821638
Vanasalus wrote:Debatable.

Yet utter lack of control, as in the case of American example, gives rise to lunatic Protestantism. Today, the most ferocious attacks to Theory of Evolution comes from American Protestantism, not from Vatican. As a matter of fact the latter has already embraced the theory.


That is a good point, though it doesn't hold for the (official) Swiss reformed church.

Vanasalus wrote:As for your rumblings about mosque funding... You present the perfect formula for replacing current mosques with underground Wahhabi mosques, which will undoubtedly generate countless number of ISIS/al Qaeda spawns.


I want to replace foreign funding with domestic funding, not cut it completely. I bet Turkey regulates foreign funding of its mosques.

Vanasalus wrote:Women and men did pray in the same mosque in the time of of Prophet Mohammad. And they still do. As long as women and men remain separated in the mosque. In Turkish example, most mosques are two story buildings. Ground floor is reserved for men, upper floor is reserved for women. Just like most of the Jewish synagogues around the world.


:lol:

As for the Jews, there are so few of them nowadays...
#14821645
Europe will have to take the lead on funding religious institutions I'm afraid. Though I completely support rugoz's idea of funding liberal mosques and blocking foreign funding.

As for women and men not being separated from each other because they are separated from each other indoors and also Jews do it so it's fine is one of the sillier arguments I've read recently.
#14821647
Rugoz wrote:Wtf are you talking about? This is a liberal mosque, where women and men pray together and women are even allowed to hold prayer. All mosques should be like that.

No. It is not like that. It is just a fake mosque being funded by Gulen terrorists with German state assistance. We know who those people are. They should be extradited and imprisoned here.

Rugoz wrote:I wish what Vanasalus said were true and the German government would be funding this. In fact liberal mosques should get all the funding they want while foreign funding, including Turkish funding, should be shut down completely.

I have no intention to discuss on mosques.

Germany funds many things, especially every terrorist groups attack on Turkey. This should be discussed.
#14821648
Istanbuller wrote:No. It is not like that. It is just a fake mosque being funded by Gulen terrorists with German state assistance. We know who those people are. They should be extradited and imprisoned here.


You're such a tool, Istanbuller. Go suck your Führer's cock.
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