Islamic world condemns liberal mosque in Berlin - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14817372
Die Welt wrote:Critical institutions in the Islamic world condemn a new liberal mosque in Berlin. As was announced on Wednesday, the Turkish religious authority Diyanet declared that the Ibn-Rushd-Goethe mosque in Berlin-Moabit "disregards the principles of our sublime religion". The aim was to "undermine and destroy the Islamic religion".

The agency in Ankara spoke of a "project of the religious movement", which was conducted under the leadership of the Gülen movement "and similar disastrous organizations". The government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan is responsible for the conviction of Fethullah Gülen, who is responsible for the coup attempt in July 2016, but does not provide evidence.

The Fatwa authorities in Egypt also spoke out in sharp form against the liberal institution founded by the Turkish-born women's rights activist Seyran Ates. It would violate Islamic beliefs when women decide not to wear a headscarf, as is customary in the new mosque community. This is not discrimination against women, according to the fatwa authority Dar al-Iftam on their Facebook page, but according to God's imposed rules.

Dar al-Iftam especially condemns the common prayer of men and women practiced in the Ibn-Rushd-Goethe mosque. "Islam forbids physical contact between men and women during prayer. For that violates the foundations of Islamic law. Women are also not allowed to be imams, even if men are present. The Cairo authorities also spoke of an attack on Islam. It was not a mosque.

The lawyer, author and liberal Muslim Seyran Ates had opened the mosque on Friday. It is to be open to Sunnis, Shiites and followers of other Islamic faiths. Women do not have to wear a headscarf when praying and can also act as a preacher. She feels discriminated against in the other German mosque communities as a woman, Ates explained her project. For her mosque, she rented a room in the Evangelical St. John's Church in the Moabit district.


There's your liberal Islam - not a snowball's chance in hell. When will the Islamophiles accept that this violent, misogynist (not to mention homophobic) ideology cannot be reformed? They have already been threatened with murder, according to an earlier article in Die Welt. Because, you know, that's normal when you disagree, that you threaten to kill your opposition. No wait, only savages do that.
#14817375
Because, you know, that's normal when you disagree, that you threaten to kill your opposition. No wait, only savages do that.

Exactly, Frollein. Because Germans would never fight brutal street battles under a dysfunctional government, and then seize power by corrupt backroom intrigues, and then imprison all opposition activists in concentration camps, and then.... but I digress. :)
#14817377
Strangely enough, today it's only muslims who stab, ax, or blow up unsupecting civilians in Europe. Guess some peoples are capable of development, and other aren't.

But hey, I guess Stalinists can only continue to exist if they stay nested in a 1930s time bubble - if they ever stepped outside and came into contact with the 21st century, they'd probably blow up in a time/anti-time reaction. :excited:
#14817384
Much of the Christian world condemned Wycliffe, Hus and Luther, yet their heresy established variants of Christianity that still stand and sparked a process that lead to reforms of the Catholic faith. Perhaps the same can happen in Islam.
#14817385
Frollein wrote:Strangely enough, today it's only muslims who stab, ax, or blow up unsupecting civilians in Europe. Guess some peoples are capable of development, and other aren't.

But hey, I guess Stalinists can only continue to exist if they stay nested in a 1930s time bubble - if they ever stepped outside and came into contact with the 21st century, they'd probably blow up in a time/anti-time reaction. :excited:


Perhaps their ideology would collapse under the weight of its own inherent contradictions.
#14817403
Thunderhawk wrote:Much of the Christian world condemned Wycliffe, Hus and Luther, yet their heresy established variants of Christianity that still stand and sparked a process that lead to reforms of the Catholic faith. Perhaps the same can happen in Islam.


Oh, they can have their Thirty Years War, no problem, as long as they don't have it in Europe.
#14817412
anasawad wrote:@Frollein
You do realize that western governments literally blow up entire countries that disagrees with them right ? ;)


While that is a gross exaggeration of western military intervention, countries that that use religion to screen there (sic) fascism deserve what they get.
Last edited by neopagan on 22 Jun 2017 23:18, edited 1 time in total.
#14817416
@neopagan
Then don't complain about your people being killed when you justify and wish the murder of civilians in other countries.


And BTW, FYI, the people living under fanatic religious systems are usually the ones experiencing the persecution and oppression the most. As inconvenient of a fact that is to someone like you.


EDIT:
On a side note.
People who justify the murder of civilians and innocent people under the name of fighting religious oppression stand in the exact same place as those who justify the murder of civilians and innocent people under the name of religion.
Specially since both share the same ideology. Different themes, but nevertheless same ideological standing.



EDIT 2:
For the topic in hand.
Islamists will always fight any attempt of reform of Islam. Since most people outside the Islamic world seem not to understand that Islamists are the equivalent of far right conservatives in the west. Simply more violent since they took control by force.
The only way to fight them is to support liberal movements and social reformists in their perspective countries. And not support in the sense of just saying that you're for it. But real support in donating funds and participating in media and social campaigns for it.

Along with ofcourse boosting education and the publishing and reach of educational materials specially scientific.
Its also important to fight the historical revisionism that Islamists are doing and debunking them and publishing the truth at every possible place and occasion.
#14817566
Frollein wrote:There's your liberal Islam - not a snowball's chance in hell. When will the Islamophiles accept that this violent, misogynist (not to mention homophobic) ideology cannot be reformed? They have already been threatened with murder, according to an earlier article in Die Welt. Because, you know, that's normal when you disagree, that you threaten to kill your opposition. No wait, only savages do that.


translation: frollein really really hopes they don't have a snowball's chance in hell.

The point here is - liberal reform has to start somewhere, and as anaswad says, they should be encouraged not laughed at. The truth is, the right wing naysayers like frollein are just as much a hindrance to the emergence of these liberal reform movements as the Islamists - when they pop up in the west like in this case. And of course that is the intention. They are not merely sceptical - they are actively trying to sabotage them.
#14817572
God's word cannot be reformed, unless its reality is brought into question. That is what Islam is afraid of. All power structures within the Islamic world rely on the dogma of the Koran and the Prophet. The basic division of Sunni and Shia is not about morality or God's will, its a power play between the Arabs and the Persians who hated each other long before Mohamed's time. Unfortunately for us, that ugliness has spilled out into the rest of the world. The entire religion will survive critical examination, because the faithful always fall back behind the smoke screen of differing interpretations. If God's word is questioned the whole house of cards comes down, not just the bits some people don't like. Which means goodbye to the Holiness of the Prophet. Muslims have seen what has happened to other religions when held up to scrutiny and they are scared. One of the most common reactions to fear is violence. The more scared they become, the more violent they will become; anything to cling to their ignorance. Its one thing to say you believe something, it is quite another to try to force those ideas on other people. In this way proselyting is immoral, especially in the indoctrination of children, who tend to believe the anything from the adults around them.
#14817579
@Frollein

I bet that the clerics and Catholic church, the highest Christian authority at the time, hated the Protestants. I bet you most Christians hated the Deists as well until they ended up accepting them. All progress is feared of and hindered, all progress is at some points misunderstood and hated. People are afraid of progress because people of things alien to them. But as time progresses they begin to accept it and embrace it. Many Islamic authorities and leaders are often Wahhabists which is a sect of Islam and therefore not representative of Islam so it makes sense that they would hate liberal mosques and any other interpretation of Islam.

@GandalfTheGrey

@anasawad

I absolutely agree with both you on pretty much everything.

@neopagan

Oh really? Then I wonder what the CIA and M16 did when Iran's secular democratically elected leader nationalized Iran's oil? America and Britain disagreed with that so then they sent some CIA and M16 agents to overthrow the government because nationalized oil is bad for America and Britain apparently.

****

Although it's kind of off-topic but I have something to say about Islam reform. Particularly that people are doing Islamic reform the wrong way. There are two types of Islam reform: theological reform and political reform.

Political Reform: Political reform is basically where you attempt to basically fit Islam into liberalism and is more concerned of working with Islam rather than "change" it. Political reform is not only easier to do than theological reform and can be done by anyone, but you can get more people to accept it. For example, Muslims and Westerners are more likely to accept political reform than theological reform.

Theological Reform: In theological reform the goal is to reform Islam theologically which involves a deep understanding of pretty much everything in Islam from the Quran to it's history to it's context and etc. Often theological reform requires large amounts of skill from the reformer and is harder to do than political reform. Not only that, but theological reform is less likely to be accepted by Muslims and more likely to be seen as heretical. The only type of Islamic reform I know has a theological connection with Islam is Quranism which has lots of benefits as a whole if it gets enough traction. If you want to know what the true Islamic equivalent of Protestantism is, it's Quranism.
#14817585
Thunderhawk wrote:Much of the Christian world condemned Wycliffe, Hus and Luther, yet their heresy established variants of Christianity that still stand and sparked a process that lead to reforms of the Catholic faith. Perhaps the same can happen in Islam.


They were 500-800 years ago ... I hate to say it, but if Muslims haven't much advanced their religion in the past 500-800 years, I really wouldn't hold my breath on it.
#14817588
@neopagan

Please look at my post, theological reform is possible you just need to actually understand everything about Islam which you unfortunately don't.

How can a vague book and a pile of scrolls have emotions? Of course you anthropomorphize Islam because to say this about Muslims is ridiculous and you know this.

Shiaism was created in Arabia, not Persia. Persia wasn't even historically Shia it was only converted into Shiaism by the Safavids because the Shah of the Safavids at the time wanted to make a bastion for Shias against an increasingly extremist Sunnism. Also the Sunni and Shia divide was originally created by the clerics to retain their power over the Islamic population. Um, Arabs and Persians never had contact with each other let alone hate each other. Arabia is where Christianity arose so of course the rulers of Persia at the time would've been suspicious of them however the general population accepted Christians and they did the same for the Muslims.

I don't understand that sentence. Wouldn't the reaction of Muslims be different? So you wouldn't be able to predict every single Muslim's reaction. Many would have different arguments against your point. Islam can be interpreted to be anything since it's a social construct.

I also don't understand what you're saying here. Muslims will probably disregard the bits that are considered to be bad and simply abstract Islam. This is the same thing that happened to Christianity. It's not as if Islam is less structured than any other religion.

Exactly what happened to other religions? They're still alive and well. We're actually seeing an increase of religion in the West rather than a decrease contrary to popular belief. Muslims aren't afraid of that at all. They don't give a shit about that, they're too busy trying to stay above the poverty line and not get killed by the government. They don't have the time to think about philosophy right now, they have needs to fulfill before they can do that. Violence in the Middle East is due to not having a job, having no money, and having no food on the table.

I don't see how that was relevant to your whole point. Your main point was that Islam cannot reform but now you're talking about parenting? I agree forcing ideas onto other people is horrible which is why you should be criticizing the government, the oppressors, instead of the Muslims living under them, the oppressed.

I bet you would indoctrinate your children as well @neopagan with your own ideology. I bet you would teach them that Islam is the worst religion in the world, that Muslims are responsible for all of the world's evils, and that immigration of Muslims is bad and that she should make fun of Islam as much as she can. I bet you would tell her that everything she hears about Muslims in history at school is wrong and then you would tell her your own uninformed and ignorant assumption about Middle Eastern history. You would then force her to be atheist and raise her as such. Why would you do this? Because to you it's obviously reality, to you what you're saying is right. You are no more of an indoctrinator than any other Muslim parent, you may in fact be worse. At lease Muslim parents are so comically wrong you can see through them and after the children grow up they can discard their ideas, your ignorance can have a more damaging affect on that child's life because there's already enough misinformation about Islam. That child could end up believing in what you said and go on turning into another version of you believing in a repulsive dogma that doesn't reflect reality.
#14817593
if Muslims haven't much advanced their religion in the past 500-800 years, I really wouldn't hold my breath on it.

But Muslims have advanced their religion in the past 500-800 years - they've advanced it towards Salafism. As I keep saying, the Muslim world has already had its Reformation and they are currently engaged in their Thirty Years War, which has spilled out from the Middle East to encompass the entire planet, as one would expect in our globalised age.
#14817594
@47 Knucklehead

*cough*Islamic Golden Age*cough*

They have advanced their religion. It's just that it all fell apart after the Mongols came out of nowhere and destroyed all those advances. The Middle Eastern world was actually on it's way to become a secular aristocracy as according to Plato's ideal government which would've been interesting. Had the Islamic Golden Age continued, we would've seen many experiments in Egypt, Iran, Iraq and Syria, Arabia, and Morocco of different forms of governments including democracy (which probably would've started in Arabia given how tribal it already was). It got to the point where atheists can call them selves atheist in public and where not interpreting the Quran using logic and reasoning would've gotten you killed.
#14817597
@Potemkin

Please read my previous post regarding Islamic reform. Islam has had it's reformation before in it's Golden Age. Now it has to do it again. Quranism isn't new, it existed during the Abbasid Caliphate was the dominant form of Islamic thought of the time. Quranism is the true Protestantism of Islam, not Sunnism.
#14817603
@47 Knucklehead

Then I still disagree with it. The idea that an ideology "evolved" is defeatist in principle regardless of how you mean it. Things do not evolving, things do not stop changing. To say that an ideology evolved implies that it has reached it's final evolution. This Western idea that the West has spread all over the world is something I want to avoid. Who's to say that it can't progress into a better ideology for humanity? It has before so why can't it again? Of course you do not object to this and probably think it can as well. However words are powerful and your own words can change your perspective.
#14817617
German-Turkish women’s rights activist Seyran Ates has pulled off an almost impossible task of opening the first LGBT-friendly “liberal” mosque in Berlin, Germany. Muslim men and women, irrespective of their castes, creeds, nationalities and sexual orientations, can attend the mosque to pray together.

Ibn-Rushd-Goethe-Mosque is the first open-minded mosque of its kind in the country and is named after Ibn Rushd, a 12th century Andalusian Islamic scholar and Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, the German playwright. The mosque is located inside a Protestant church, on a busy shopping street in the immigrant neighborhood of Moabit, Berlin.

http://www.ibtimes.com/ibn-rushd-goethe ... de-2553832


Whoever she is, Seyran Ates did the right thing. But the mosque may be an open prayer room which welcomes everyone rather than a sanctioned mosque approved by local imams. Seyran Ates is a German lawyer and Muslim feminist of Kurdish descent.

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