GandalfTheGrey wrote:You could have taken another perspective and noted the very emergence of this mosque - in such an environment - is itself encouraging.
How is that encouraging? Ates was a feminist lawyer who had to quit her job because her life was in danger from exactly the faction that is now hurling death threats her way. She's under police protection, several members of her new project have already left for fear of their lives, and it'll be just a matter of time until she's either killed or will be forced to scrap that thing like she had to stop her work for battered women. I find it regrettable, but completely predictable. Projecting any kind of schadenfreude on me just because I don't indulge in your fantasies about a reformed, modern, vanilla version of Islam is entirely your problem, not mine.
If your world-view was to be believed, the mosque surely would have been descended upon by frothing-at-the-mouth Islamists and torched the moment it opened
See above
- and all its members beheaded.
Or stabbed, shot, axed, or run over with a truck. Or maybe just the promise will suffice to kill this project - these people have families they want to protect, you know?
And yet it stands, and according to your own article faces no serious threat to its existence by Islamists or anyone else. Almost all the criticism you could find of it was non-violent. You actually had to dig pretty deep to find actual violent threats against it.
I quoted one article where the "real muslims" got their official ok to see this liberal mosque as heresy, and I mentioned the interview that Die Welt published the next day, wherein Ates said herself that she gets death threats already, and that three members have already left for fear of their lives. So no, I didn't have to dig deep, but the results are not the ones you dreamed of.
Like I said you could have taken an entirely different outlook and commended the emergence of these movements (this is certainly not the only one), and implored the naysayers to get on board, and applauding the opportunity this creates for Islam.
In other words, I could have shared your delusion that "liberal" and "Islam" could be combined, and that would somehow have influenced the orthodox muslims that objectively exist in the real world - you know, the ones uttering death threats against this pipe dream.
You could even have noted that there was no meaningful threat to its existence by Islamists,
Why would I deny reality? So that you're happy? Your undisturbed existence in your bubble where Islam is peaceful isn't my problem.
Instead of insisting that the (rather predictable) criticisms of these movements must necessarily mean there's not a snowball's chance in hell for them.
Death threats are "criticisms" now?
Interesting shift of your concept of acceptable forms of debate.
But you can't countenance such a possibility because it destroys your world view
I never paid much attention to islam and its adherents until they began to be actively destructive in my country. My worldview was formed by observation of what was happening in the world, not by wishful thinking, which is quite obviously the basis for your worldview.
- and so you pretend you are merely "observing" instead of actively creating a narrative for yourself to satisfy your rather sick desire to see liberal/progressive Islam fail.
The only desire I have regarding islam is that it should work out its problem somewhere else than in my country - preferably in one of the 56 paradises it has already created for itself. I don't give a rat's ass if it's liberal or conservative as long as it doesn't impact me. So I don't need to create narratives - that's the prerogative of left-liberals who then throw a tantrum when someone points out the real-world fuckup that is Islam.
Checking my privilege - yep, still goodWhat would happen if the Sahara became socialist? - For ten years, nothing, then we'd run out of sand.