London Tube to change 'ladies and gentlemen' announcements-Gender Neutral - Page 3 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14823992
I have not heard this but I am not surprised by it. Without any evidence here are some thoughts.

It could be that people suffering gender dysphoria seek out the military in an attempt to suppress their feelings. Where better to "butch up" than in the military. So this having failed, the person seeks the gender reassignment they were fearing for so long.


It could also be that the military life and its overtly male culture contrasted with the current US zeitgeist leads to seeking to abandon male gender in protest against that culture. What is the most "anti-military" action? How about abandoning manhood in favor of womanhood? And one could see female to male reassignment in the same light; joining behavior rather than protesting. My suspicion is that the overwhelming majority of these GID cases are male to female.

Then there is the possibility that the male soldier, traumatized by the stresses of combat (or even just military life) escapes in the most irrevocable way ever.

I have another thought about male to female adult gender reassignment. Could it be that the person transitioning rejects homosexuality and finds transgenderism a way to have sex with men without being "gay".

I am deeply skeptical of childhood gender reassingment. Even of the diagnosis at at all. I am also skeptical of adult transgenderism. Or at least the relative ease with which we allow this odd behavior.

From an epidemiological standpoint, the highly technical explanation for my concerns goes something like this: There is something rotten in Denmark and it ain't the fish".
#14824007
Drlee wrote:I have not heard this but I am not surprised by it. Without any evidence here are some thoughts.

It could be that people suffering gender dysphoria seek out the military in an attempt to suppress their feelings. Where better to "butch up" than in the military. So this having failed, the person seeks the gender reassignment they were fearing for so long.


It could also be that the military life and its overtly male culture contrasted with the current US zeitgeist leads to seeking to abandon male gender in protest against that culture. What is the most "anti-military" action? How about abandoning manhood in favor of womanhood? And one could see female to male reassignment in the same light; joining behavior rather than protesting. My suspicion is that the overwhelming majority of these GID cases are male to female.

Then there is the possibility that the male soldier, traumatized by the stresses of combat (or even just military life) escapes in the most irrevocable way ever.

I have another thought about male to female adult gender reassignment. Could it be that the person transitioning rejects homosexuality and finds transgenderism a way to have sex with men without being "gay".

I am deeply skeptical of childhood gender reassingment. Even of the diagnosis at at all. I am also skeptical of adult transgenderism. Or at least the relative ease with which we allow this odd behavior.

From an epidemiological standpoint, the highly technical explanation for my concerns goes something like this: There is something rotten in Denmark and it ain't the fish".


Those are some interesting hypotheses but they are very psychological and not bio-chemical. There does seem to be a lot of the gender dysphoria around lately, inside and outside military institutions, but I wonder given that it seems to be quite a modern phenomena whether or not it was less a purely psychological cause and more a bio-chemical one in origin. In our civilisation now we come into contact with elements and compounds that in prior centuries we did not. For some random examples: depleted uranium, plastics etc. It is not unknown for chemical compounds to affect hormone levels and mental functioning.

I don't see gender dysphoria being an issue with historical militaries or wider civilisation. Granted there are no stats for it but I wonder what % of Ghengis Khan's golden hordes suffered gender dysphoria or Rome's Legions and how that compares with the US marine corp.
#14824008
Zionist Nationalist wrote:I just said they should not get any special treatment I dont really care about them being out there but they are something like 0.01 percent of the population so why should anyone take them into consideration?


I never said that they should get special treatment. Again, assuming your post was accurate, I'm asking whether you'd placate an insane man on the street—or would you bravely insist someone else provoke the insane man on the street for no reason?

This is, of course, assuming your arguments are correct for the moment.
#14824041
Pants-of-dog wrote:Yes, this greeting is obviously going to cause the End of All That is Holy and Good in Western Civilisation.


It's a symptom of degeneracy (among many), not a cause.

In this example, because a tiny relative minority of people suffer from a mental illness, the rest of society must change to accommodate them-instead of you know, emphasizing treatment. This is a serious condition, they're perceiving the wrong body for themselves; up to the point where some sufferers will mutilate their genitals, and associated hormonal physiology just to feel better.

There are people who dress up in animal costumes and identity as that. Do we start being worried about offending them with words?
#14824072
My amateur observation is that historically those with wealth and power indulge in extreme behavior in an attempt to escape an emptiness their wealth and power failed to achieve. The wealth and power provide too much free time to pursue these interests. These people feel guilty about this behavior. What we are seeing now in our wealthy societies is these people attempting to legitimize their behavior to eliminate their own feelings of guilt. The wealthier a society becomes overall, the more people who fall into this category.

Edit: I would speculate this is why you see 'Hollywood types' as the main spokes people.
Edit 2: Sorry, hit wrong button. Also, they are using a very small group of individuals who are truly different to justify actions of a much larger group who are simply decadent and confused.
#14824113
Igor Antunov wrote:It's a symptom of degeneracy (among many), not a cause.

In this example, because a tiny relative minority of people suffer from a mental illness, the rest of society must change to accommodate them-instead of you know, emphasizing treatment. This is a serious condition, they're perceiving the wrong body for themselves; up to the point where some sufferers will mutilate their genitals, and associated hormonal physiology just to feel better.

There are people who dress up in animal costumes and identity as that. Do we start being worried about offending them with words?


Please explain why civilisation will collapse if we are not bigoted assholes to trans people. Thanks.

Maybe my local community is somehow oddly resilient as we seem to have no social problems associated with not being douchebags.
#14824123
Just a thought: Special interest lobbyist deciding our legislation has resulted in forcing society to change faster than individuals and communities would naturally. The polarization is due to this conflict of rapid change compared to how long it takes new ideas to permeate a society. Someone decided they were unwilling to wait for change to permeate communities and would simply force it upon them. This has become the norm. No one is willing to be understanding enough of others to wait for what they want. This might also come back to our obsession with the individual and his current life being of utmost importance. If you believe this, then the change must come in your lifetime or it is not of value. This is very self defeating for human progress in my opinion.
#14824127
Pants-of-dog wrote:So, trans people have to simply wait quietly until people are magically no longer transphobic, instead of demanding the right to be treated equally?

That is not how political change works.


It has been how political change has always worked until recently. Before change happens, you must have a significant number of people in the community who desire that change. You have simply decided one person or even no persons is enough and that is absurd.
#14824131
One Degree wrote:It has been how political change has always worked until recently.


No. No minority has ever received equal rights by shutting up and taking it quietly.

Before change happens, you must have a significant number of people in the community who desire that change. You have simply decided one person or even no persons is enough and that is absurd.


No, I did not decide that. The idea that every individual should be treated equally is a basic tenet of liberal democracy. The majority of the developed countries are supposedly liberal democracies.
#14824133
Pants-of-dog wrote:No. No minority has ever received equal rights by shutting up and taking it quietly.



No, I did not decide that. The idea that every individual should be treated equally is a basic tenet of liberal democracy. The majority of the developed countries are supposedly liberal democracies.


You are simply placing ideology over reality which is the basis for justifying the rapid change which is the problem in the first place. In other words, you believe Democracy is wrong. You believe the majority should not decide. Forcing this concept on us has effectively destroyed Democracy, so was that the real goal?
#14824138
Transsexuals transition from Male to Female or vice versa so they are covered by the ladies and gentleman announcements. This change benefits the 1 in a hundred million who don't wish to identify with either category.

@One Degree
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Londoners aren't ready to get on the trans train? That hasn't been my experience of the city.
#14824144
Pants-of-dog wrote:No, I did not decide that. The idea that every individual should be treated equally is a basic tenet of liberal democracy. The majority of the developed countries are supposedly liberal democracies.


Being included in Metro-announcements as a group is now an individual right? You realize you can extend that indefinitely to all kinds of nonsense, at which point it becomes nothing but a tyranny of the minority? Liberal democracy means first and foremost the guarantee of individual rights that are necessary for a democracy to function, everything on top of that is optional.
#14824150
AFAIK wrote:Transsexuals transition from Male to Female or vice versa so they are covered by the ladies and gentleman announcements. This change benefits the 1 in a hundred million who don't wish to identify with either category.

@One Degree
Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that Londoners aren't ready to get on the trans train? That hasn't been my experience of the city.


I never said that, but I can see why you would think I did. I wandered away from the specifics of this thread to generalities. Mea Culpa.
But, I don't think most people know what they want. There has been too much pressure for too long telling them what they should want. This is why Trump's election was a surprise. Once the Media is forced to give an alternative opinion a voice, people start thinking about how they really feel.
#14824174
AFAIK wrote:I thought you were all about local autonomy? Isn't making generalisations the antithesis of that?

If people are easily talked into supporting random positions you can't argue that they have strong opinions on something.

The generalizations were about ideology, not any community. People have not been easily talked into these positions, they have been intimidated into them. Threatening states and local communities with boycotts and lawsuits will sway most people. It should not, but it does especially when they are not the racist or sexist they will be made out to be.
#14824188
On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being the most a story could interest or bother me, I'd place this at it's highest at a 2 or 3. Admittedly however I am not a transgender person myself and do not know anyone that is for a real-world viewpoint on how such a situation would affect me. I've never considered myself belonging to any minority so I can't appreciate how it must be to live feeling oppressed in a way transgender people may have.

While it doesn't interest me too much, it also doesn't annoy me either as it seems to with a few others. If anything I think it is only noticeable because somebody pointed it out. If they just made this change without a media release I think the vast majority of people (or the 99.99% to oppose the figure mentioned in this thread as the share of TG people in London) fail to notice.

It does make me think though if this sets a precedent for other instances where "Ladies and Gentlemen" is used. Will it stop at this or will we soon be welcomed into every area where a PA system exists by "Hello Everyone"?
#14824250
Please explain why civilisation will collapse if we are not bigoted assholes to trans people. Thanks.


Please explain how, by the wildest flight of anyone's imagination that saying "ladies and gentlemen" is being a "bigoted asshole to trans people".

Good grief. :roll:
#14824323
One Degree wrote:You are simply placing ideology over reality which is the basis for justifying the rapid change which is the problem in the first place. In other words, you believe Democracy is wrong. You believe the majority should not decide. Forcing this concept on us has effectively destroyed Democracy, so was that the real goal?


I do not see rapid change as a problem. In fact, when it comes to us actually doing what we said we would do, why should we wait?

----------------

Igor Antunov wrote:Subway speaker: 'Ladies and Gentlemen...'

You: "OMG! bigoted assholes to trans people. How dare they use this language!"


Think hard about the above and the explanation will hit you like a freight train.


No thanks, you can just explain why you think civilisation will collapse if we are not transphobic.

If you do not want to support such claims, do not make them.

--------------

Rugoz wrote:Being included in Metro-announcements as a group is now an individual right? You realize you can extend that indefinitely to all kinds of nonsense, at which point it becomes nothing but a tyranny of the minority? Liberal democracy means first and foremost the guarantee of individual rights that are necessary for a democracy to function, everything on top of that is optional.


I am not discussing Metro announcements in the post of mine that you quoted.

And as far as I know, the tenet of equality is not arbitrarily limited by "making democracy function", whatever that means.

---------------

Drlee wrote:Please explain how, by the wildest flight of anyone's imagination that saying "ladies and gentlemen" is being a "bigoted asshole to trans people".

Good grief. :roll:


Well, Igor seems to think that being polite to trans people is the cause of civilisation's downfall. Neither he nor I were discussing e Meteo greeting in te post of mine you quoted.

To be 100% clear, I am not discussing the Metro announcement in the post you quoted.
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