[neopagan]

Fuck the EU, the sooner it and NATO disintegrate the better for all involved.

I would like to add the UN to the above worthless organisations. But to be fair to the EU, it started out as the idea of a "Common Market," not so bad a concept, but then they just had to start moralising. The EU is not a country, and it is not a United States of Europe. It is an economic block with no ability to defend its borders against illegal immigrants or armies. But somehow, the EU Parliament think they have the right and power to dictate how the individual countries run their affairs. I would like to see them try. Suspension! Ooooo. The Poles should be scared! Yeah, just like they were going to tell Greece how to run their economy. That's been a brilliant success. The EU is a joke to everyone south and east of the Mediterranean. Is it any surprise they want to take advantage of the schmucks?

[Potemkin]

I have to say it's Angela Merkel's fault mostly. The goddess of pragmatism and compromises failed to show an example with Hungary, so the problem escalates now. I'm sure she was pleased with herself how well she was handling Orbán, what a surprise it must be that Poland, which is four times the size of Hungary, doesn't care about the liberal values of the EU now!

The problem, it seems to me, is that Angela Merkel doesn't see her ideology as an ideology but merely as decency and common sense. Ideologies tend to be invisible to those who hold them. I'm right about everything hut everyone else has an 'ideology' which blinds them to the self-evident truth. Lol.

In reality, of course, everyone has an ideology, and all ideologies are delusional to a greater or lesser degree. As Althusser put it, an ideology is merely the imaginary set of relations between an individual and the world around them. 'Imaginary' in the Lacanian sense, as being the means by which we construct an unconscious and non-discursive self-image based on our 'place' in the world, but also 'imaginary' in the tradition sense of being unreal. And the thing about our self-image is that it seems to be transparent and natural; the glass of the mirror always seems perfectly clear as we gaze adoringly into it at our own reflection, but in reality the mirror is warped, clouded and dirty.

The problem arises when two different and incompatible ideologies come into conflict with each other, as is happening now throughout the EU. Both sides consider themselves to be self-evidently right and to be standing up for decency and common sense, while their opponents are obviously self-deluded scoundrels. They are both right about that, of course.

Except me, of course. As a Marxist-Leninist, I have gained a scientific understanding of the world, and am therefore always right about everything.

[Rugoz]

I would like to add the UN to the above worthless organisations. But to be fair to the EU, it started out as the idea of a "Common Market," not so bad a concept, but then they just had to start moralising. The EU is not a country, and it is not a United States of Europe. It is an economic block with no ability to defend its borders against illegal immigrants or armies. But somehow, the EU Parliament think they have the right and power to dictate how the individual countries run their affairs. I would like to see them try. Suspension! Ooooo. The Poles should be scared! Yeah, just like they were going to tell Greece how to run their economy. That's been a brilliant success. The EU is a joke to everyone south and east of the Mediterranean. Is it any surprise they want to take advantage of the schmucks?

Why all that whining? They can leave if they don't like it.

Except me, of course. As a Marxist-Leninist, I have gained a scientific understanding of the world, and am therefore always right about everything.

Sure you have, Potemkin *pats Potemkin's head*.

[Potemkin]

Sure you have, Potemkin *pats Potemkin's head*.

I'm a scientist, aren't I Rugoz? I'm a real scientist, right? *wags tail excitedly*

[Rugoz]

I'm a scientist, aren't I Rugoz? I'm a real scientist, right? *wags tail excitedly*

I don't know Potemkin...I thought you were a historian?

[One Degree]

I don't know Potemkin...I thought you were a historian?

You should not call @Potemkin names. Everyone knows historians are evil because they keep trying to inject realism into our moral crusades. History must be rewritten or forgotten for our crusades to succeed!

[Saeko]

I have to say it's Angela Merkel's fault mostly. The goddess of pragmatism and compromises failed to show an example with Hungary, so the problem escalates now. I'm sure she was pleased with herself how well she was handling Orbán, what a surprise it must be that Poland, which is four times the size of Hungary, doesn't care about the liberal values of the EU now!

She is 100% for compromises when it's other people that are doing all the comprimising.

[Beren]

The problem, it seems to me, is that Angela Merkel doesn't see her ideology as an ideology but merely as decency and common sense.

Merkel has the ideology carved in the constitution of the Bundesrepublik of course, however, she also has an attitude which is pragmatic, patient, thorough, and risk-avoiding. I'm sure Juncker advised her to get tougher on Hungary, but she made her own analysis and concluded that it wouldn't be worth the risk. There was some pressure put on Orbán but not that much, I wonder if she thinks now that she should have listened to Juncker. (It's completely hypothetical that Juncker gave her any advice on the issue but I guess he did, and I also guess she didn't listen to him.)

The problem arises when two different and incompatible ideologies come into conflict with each other, as is happening now throughout the EU. Both sides consider themselves to be self-evidently right and to be standing up for decency and common sense, while their opponents are obviously self-deluded scoundrels. They are both right about that, of course.

If someone believes Orbán is a scoundrel, he or she must be right then.

She is 100% for compromises when it's other people that are doing all the comprimising.

It's hard to make compromises when you're principled and basically right indeed.

Also, Angela Merkel is not only German, she's an East-German scientist. I wonder if she's Prussian.

[Dave]

The Visegrad administrations are merely trying to cash in the current anti-immigrant political bandwagon. They are not acting decisively against anything but merely trying to stay in power with circus and theatre like everybody else. They are not in a mission for anything other than keeping their chairs and these countries have never been in any multi-cultural danger of any kind.

I do not speak Polish, Hungarian, etc. so my perspective is limited, but it seems that they are accomplishing things in this department. Most obviously the construction of a border fence (I realize non-Visegrad states have done this as well) and the refusal to accept refuges.

All these nations have to do is gaze west over the Oder-Neisse line to see how quickly multiculturalism metastasizes. There is also quite a large Polish diaspora in the United States which must mean many Poles have learned about the multicultural transformation of the United States.

They are doing it only because that is what populists do when you let them do it, they extend their time and grip on the chair. When you concentrate power in the chair you also risk that power falling to the wrong hands, which it most certainly will if it's not already there.

Yes, this is clearly true. Taking advantage of a crisis to seize power is the oldest trick in the book.

Civic rights decline when governments like the one in Poland remove civic rights from their people and others support that decline. All these things happen when people let them happen by providing tacit or explicit approval. And then it comes down to very simple things in our every day lives.

The governments west of the Oder-Neisse have been proliferating "hate speech" laws and prosecutions, which is an obvious assault on civic rights.

This occurs in the Visegrad states as well--Richard Spencer was arrested in Budapest and deported, which certainly seems contrary to Viktor Orban's image.

Bizarrely, Germany's new social media control legislation has been cloned by the United Russia Party and introduced as legislation in the State Duma.

Does one support the idea of families and birth rates? Having children is far more productive than blaming homosexuality & immigrants for example.

This is a false dichotomy. If one's goal is to expand the national family, then promoting cultural and political conditions which are conducive to that is mandatory. This promotion is ofc far more effective when you "walk the walk".

There are also immigration restrictionists and nationalists who don't promote larger families and think population decline is positive. John Derbyshire frequently cites Japan as a positive example.

Does one support the advancement of civic rights, then speak out against the Polish actions. Does one support the post-war international order? Then speak out against those states that undermine it.

With respect to the European Union, it was Germany that illegally undermined the Dublin Convention and thus made today's Poland possible.

And internationally the main underminer of the postwar order would be the United States, often aided and abetted by its European allies.

[JohnRawls]

The EU is a disaster for Eastern Europe. The EU wants these countries to adopt "liberalizing" reforms so that their governments won't be able to mount any effective resistance against Western economic domination.

Think before you post Saeko. EU has been nothing but a blessing and a miracle for the East of Europe. Providing investment, stability and many other things in many areas at an expense of the West.(Minor but still)

If it hadnt been for the European Union, i doubt we would have even half the progress we had since the collapse of the USSR.

[Dave]

Think before you post Saeko. EU has been nothing but a blessing and a miracle for the East of Europe. Providing investment, stability and many other things in many areas at an expense of the West.(Minor but still)

If it hadnt been for the European Union, i doubt we would have even half the progress we had since the collapse of the USSR.

Is this necessarily true?

I don't dispute that the EU has provided many benefits to Eastern Europe--these benefits are quite obvious. Above all else entry into the single European market, but also EU investment funds.

That said, the economic performance of EU Eastern Europe since the collapse of communism isn't really any better than the economic performance of the former Soviet Union (other than the Ukraine ). Russia, Belarus, Azerbaijan, and even a number of the Central Asian countries have done quite well.

[JohnRawls]

Is this necessarily true?

I don't dispute that the EU has provided many benefits to Eastern Europe--these benefits are quite obvious. Above all else entry into the single European market, but also EU investment funds.

That said, the economic performance of EU Eastern Europe since the collapse of communism isn't really any better than the economic performance of the former Soviet Union (other than the Ukraine ). Russia, Belarus, Azerbaijan, and even a number of the Central Asian countries have done quite well.

Define well? It is a broad term.

Most of the older Eastern European members of the EU have nominal GDP per capita 2 times higher than Russia.(Around that) Bulgaria and Romania lag a bit behind. Most of the Socialist block countries are behind Russia nominal GDP per capita wise.(that are not part of the EU) The only country that is below Russia that is part of the EU is Bulgaria. Even a new members like Bulgaria has almost identical nomninal gdp per capita with Russia who has the highest numbers for all Ex Socialist block countries outside of the EU.

Note: I did not use PPP per capita because it undervalues the whole argument of stability and progress.

[Igor Antunov]

Kazakhstan and Russia are by far the strongest former soviet economies that have seen the most overall economic development and growth since the turbulent 90. The Baltic states are microstates, they don't count and if they do then we need to compare them with similarly populated major Russian cities which have done far better than they have.

I did not use PPP per capita because it undervalues the whole argument of stability and progress.

You did not use it because it completely undermines your argument.

What has the EU done for Romania, Bulgaria, Poland ultimately? Not much. Well Romanians can easily find work illegally in Austria/Germany for $5/euros an hour and poles are also the continents migrating cheap labour pool ranging from Germany to the UK. Whoopty fucking doo.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

I was interested in the comparison between Eastern European EU-members (in green except the Baltic countries which are in red) and former SU-countries (in blue). Data is from the World Bank.

GDP per capita growth (annual %): annual percentage growth rate of GDP per capita based on constant local currency (so adjusted for inflation but not PPP).


The main difference seems to be the magnitude and duration of the contraction in the early 90s and perhaps that the former SU-countries are more variable. I'm actually surprised that there isn't a clear difference on average.

[B0ycey]

I was interested in the comparison between Eastern European EU-members (in green except the Baltic countries which are in red) and former SU-countries (in blue). Data is from the World Bank.

GDP per capita growth (annual %): annual percentage growth rate of GDP per capita based on constant local currency (so adjusted for inflation but not PPP).


The main difference seems to be the magnitude and duration of the contraction in the early 90s and perhaps that the former SU-countries are more variable. I'm actually surprised that there isn't a clear difference on average.

A graph, stat, chart etc can tell you whatever you want it to tell you. You look long enough (and it won't be long) you'll find a chart that contradicts this.

What you should really be doing is asking yourself another question. Which side of the iron curtain are former Soviet states better on? Poland aren't looking at Article 50 any time soon are they? Why would they? They have it good at the moment and are having money spent reversing years of deprivation and improving its infrastructure.

Perhaps the EU isn't this Eastern European monster that you wish it was. Poland could easily avert to Russia if it wanted to. But somehow, we both know this will never happen.

Old wounds take time to heel. And charts do not show living conditions for the ordinary public very well do they?

[One Degree]

What is the difference, for people of Eastern European countries, from having the Soviet Union telling them what to do and having the EU constantly saying they do not need input from countries to make their decisions.
The arguments here are based upon economics, which is a poor yardstick compared to being able to make your own decisions.

[B0ycey]

What is the difference, for people of Eastern European countries, from having the Soviet Union telling them what to do and having the EU constantly saying they do not need input from countries to make their decisions.
The arguments here are based upon economics, which is a poor yardstick compared to being able to make your own decisions.

Economics a poor yard stick? Let me tell you something. 99% of people vote in regards to improving their economic standings and put the governing body who is in charge at the time soley responsible for it if it ever reduces. It is the only yardstick to use.

As for the EU dictating decisions on behalf of Eastern Europeans, this isn't true is it. No Eastern European nation was forced to join. They applied and chose to. And by doing so agreed to EU principles. They also have a voice in future policies. Then there is article 50. Any nation can leave the EU. But somehow I can't see any of the Eastern bloc signing it any time soon. Can you? And if not why not if the EU is sooooooo bad?

[One Degree]

Economics a poor yard stick? Let me tell you something. 99% of people vote in regards to improving their economic standings and put the governing body who is in charge at the time soley responsible for it if it ever reduces. It is the only yardstick to use.

As for the EU dictating decisions on behalf of Eastern Europeans, this isn't true is it. No Eastern European nation was forced to join. They applied and chose to. And by doing so agreed to EU principles. They also have a voice in future policies. Then there is article 50. Any nation can leave the EU. But somehow I can't see any of the Eastern bloc signing it any time soon. Can you? And if not why not if the EU is sooooooo bad?

So, your argument is if I give you money and you choose to sacrifice freedom of choice for that money, then I am doing you a great favor? This is the thinking of a society where money is the only goal. I don't deny that you are right that 99% of people may feel this way, I just find it totally pathetic humans have sunk so low.

[B0ycey]

So, your argument is if I give you money and you choose to sacrifice freedom of choice for that money, then I am doing you a great favor? This is the thinking of a society where money is the only goal. I don't deny that you are right that 99% of people may feel this way, I just find it totally pathetic humans have sunk so low.

No. My argument is if you sign up to an agreement so you can take money and enter the LARGEST single market in the world to improve your country, then you abide by the conditions that you signed up to.

Another point I'd like to make as you just mentioned sacrificing freedoms is that a government and its countries law makers need to be separated if you want to LIVE IN A FREE society. Otherwise you live in a banana republic and lose your rights to the GOVERNMENT as they can dictate them to suit their needs. So actually Poland are sacrificing their citizens freedoms to enhance their autonomy over them. So it's also undemocratic and a first step to dictatorship. All the EU is doing is firing warning shots that such a move will not be tolerated. And of course Poland also can leave the EU so it's not forced to do anything. The EU is not oppressive. It just has very high values.

[One Degree]

No. My argument is if you sign up to an agreement so you can take money and enter the LARGEST single market in the world to improve your country, then you abide by the conditions that you signed up to.

Another point I'd like to make as you just mentioned sacrificing freedoms is that a government and its countries law makers need to be separated if you want to LIVE IN A FREE society. Otherwise you live in a banana republic and lose your rights to the GOVERNMENT as they can dictate them to suit their needs. So actually Poland are sacrificing their citizens freedoms to enhance their autonomy over them. So it's also undemocratic and a first step to dictatorship. All the EU is doing is firing warning shots that such a move will not be tolerated. And of course Poland also can leave the EU so it's not forced to do anything. The EU is not oppressive. It just has very high values.

Liberal 'double think'. You confuse Liberalism with Democracy and freedom. Poland will leave the EU before giving up all they have recently achieved. I don't see how the EU could be so blind to their foolishness in pushing Poland, of all places, on this issue.
Their hubris blinds them to obvious choices that will be made.