[One Degree]

I absolutely hate the idea of taking my shoes off to go through airport scanners. I find it humiliating, degrading, and unnecessary. Protesting it, by refusing to take my shoes off, will have consequences for me.

The same logic should be applied to the face veil. If you wish to protest it, then there should be consequences. Perhaps a fine. This would allow the community to decide if they are willing to suffer the consequences to protect their right to choose. Wanting freedom of choice, while demanding you not suffer consequences for your choice, leads to social aberration. If enough people are willing to pay the fine then the rules will change. If they are not, then there is no need to change the rules.

[Suntzu]

It would be more interesting if she was a nudist.

[Ned Lud]

It would be more interesting if she was a nudist.

Yes, but... I think that hiding the face is very, very deeply alien to our culture, and currently unacceptable, as , apparently, is nudity to many in that same culture (and looking at myself in the bathroom mirror, I do take the point!) I wouldn't expect to get sloshed regularly in most of the Middle East, so I don't go there. I think deep prejudices, in any culture, have to be respected just now.

[Oxymandias]

@MadMonk

There was nowhere in your post that implied this however. At least to my knowledge.

I have never seen a single Muslim woman or a woman in general who defended FGM. That is sheer lunacy. FGM is often a very traumatic moment for all women in the Middle East.

@Bulaba Jones

You stated that clothing found in Islamic societies shouldn't be allowed in the West so given this you were not talking about Islamic societies but Islamic clothing in Western societies. If not your previous post doesn't make much sense. There is no information as to whether or not the women was a strict religious parent and forced her daughter to wear the veil. Also if the parents did try to force her to wear the veil, there would've certainly been backlash from the daughter and she probably would forgo wearing even a hijab since the daughter is exposed to both Western and Islamic culture and probably favors the latter.

Iran and Turkey was also in a similar situation. However after people were given the freedom to wear whatever they want and practice whatever religion they wish, we saw an resurgence in religious fundamentalism. The entire reason why Erdogan went into politics is because of a time in which he was put into prison for reciting a Quranic verse that criticized the Turkish government at the time and the reason he got so much support is due to the perception that the times of Ataturk were authoritarian. You see the same thing in Iran, Afghan, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, etc. Nothing ever comes from banning anything. The West didn't become as secular as it is because of forced secularization but of gradual secularization.

You literally said that the face veil (or clothing from Islamic societies) has no place in the West. What was so overtly aggressive about my post? Or did you perceive it as such? I assure that I do not think ill of you at all. It seems that you not responding to me in the first paragraph but responding to a certain group of people that you personally think I belong in. If you think I am an SJW, then you are absolutely wrong. There is nothing wrong with criticizing Islamic societies, if I had a quarter for ever single time I had criticized an Islamic society I would be rich. However this is about you advocating for the ban of clothing of Islamic societies in the West. That is completely different from criticizing Islamic societies.

[Oxymandias]

@Ned Lud

But why can't we destroy those prejudices? Why can't we let anyone wear whatever they want? Culture isn't static, it changes. Something alien one day can potentially be normal in the next and vice versa. The idea of "culture as static" is nothing more than nationalist and conservative drivel.

Also I doubt that a face veil is alien to your culture. If you saw someone walking around in a ninja suit or someone covering their face with a Luchador you wouldn't give a shit and probably would have a laugh. However if it's a face veil that looks Middle Eastern and implies that the person is Muslim is apparently horrible.

[Zionist Nationalist]

if they want to wear those face veils they should go back to the shitholes they came from

[Oxymandias]

@One Degree

Alright then we should put a fine for every single person who wants to vote since their vote changes the people in charge and therefore, the status quo at the time. And why not also put a fine for anyone who wants against the government or any disagreeable policies both for Republicans and Democrats. You realize your policy would just make democracy a lot more harder to do and make even more people not care to vote or even voice their own opinion because who gives a shit, I don't want to pay a fine just to vote or just to protest.

Imagine if America had this during the Civil Rights Movement. Many of the protesters were black and didn't have alot of money. If they had to pay a fine to protest segregation would still exist and blacks would have far less rights than whites. Imagine if people couldn't protest for Gay Rights, Women's Rights, or even for democracy without paying a fine. Imagine if they had this during the Protestant Revolution, we wouldn't even have another Christian sect and religious freedom would've never been even considered.

[Oxymandias]

@Zionist Nationalist

Then take all your soldiers from your bases and bring them back to the shitholes they came from. Of course we both know we can't do neither.

[Zionist Nationalist]

@Zionist Nationalist

Then take all your soldiers from your bases and bring them back to the shitholes they came from. Of course we both know we can't do neither.

what does that have to do with the fact that those barbarians came to Europe with their primitive culture and they ask for special treatment

fuck them

[One Degree]

@Oxymandias
people should be fined for breaking the law. Peaceful protests are legal. Voting is legal. She is choosing to do something that violates the rules, I find it more appropriate to fine her, than banning her. If she wears the veil, then she is using security's time, but she is no real threat.

[danholo]

Then take all your soldiers from your bases and bring them back to the shitholes they came from. Of course we both know we can't do neither.

It's true because there are no shitholes in Israel - except maybe south Tel Aviv.

[Oxymandias]

@Zionist Nationalist

From my point of view, the monkeys building bases of war and destruction in the Middle East are the real barbarians.

@One Degree

Legal action is apparently illegal? She's paying for a lawyer and a discrimination case. In that sense what she is doing is protesting for the right to wear the veil. I find nothing wrong with that. The premise could in ban it and that's perfectly fine. What I am defending is her right to protest or get legal action which every citizen should have.

@danholo

I was talking about American military bases in the Middle East, not Israel.

[One Degree]

@Oxymandias

Legal action is apparently illegal? She's paying for a lawyer and a discrimination case. In that sense what she is doing is protesting for the right to wear the veil. I find nothing wrong with that. The premise could in ban it and that's perfectly fine. What I am defending is her right to protest or get legal action which every citizen should have.

That is perfectly acceptable by our current standards of individual rights, but I believe that is very misguided and community (the school in this case) rights are more important. The solution should be found within the school and the parents of the school children. Their common standards should be more important than the individual. Laws based upon Individual rights are new and doomed to failure because society can not function under those guidelines for long. Forcing a school or community to change their laws based upon what one individual wants leads to chaos. Especially today, when we allow this without the individual needing to accept any responsibility for how their actions affect the community as a whole. If you do not fit into a community and the community chooses not to change, then you are living in the wrong community.

Edit: By going outside the community to solve the problem, you don't really solve it. Even if she wins the court case, she will leave that community almost immediately. As soon as she is gone, the school will go back to their old ways. I have fought the battle many times and the win never lasts long without widespread support from the community.

[Oxymandias]

@One Degree

And how are you aware that this isn't supported by the community? How do you know banning face veils in the school isn't an individual decision?

Other than that I agree with you on everything else, especially on community. I see myself as a sort of communitarian in terms of my views.

[MadMonk]

@Oxymandias
That is perfectly acceptable by our current standards of individual rights, but I believe that is very misguided and community (the school in this case) rights are more important. The solution should be found within the school and the parents of the school children. Their common standards should be more important than the individual. Laws based upon Individual rights are new and doomed to failure because society can not function under those guidelines for long. Forcing a school or community to change their laws based upon what one individual wants leads to chaos. Especially today, when we allow this without the individual needing to accept any responsibility for how their actions affect the community as a whole. If you do not fit into a community and the community chooses not to change, then you are living in the wrong community.

Edit: By going outside the community to solve the problem, you don't really solve it. Even if she wins the court case, she will leave that community almost immediately. As soon as she is gone, the school will go back to their old ways. I have fought the battle many times and the win never lasts long without widespread support from the community.

Many times in history the supposed 'community values' have, quite frankly, been wrong and it has been up to individuals to fight the injustice before them. In the US that could be the values that allowed slavery to exist in the first place to the far longer discrimination that followed. Community values are often compromised with bullshit altitudes that have to be corrected by the greater community.

It is hard to criticize to what you yourself identify with. In the 1920's Sweden founded the first 'State Institute for Racial Biology' in the world, which would later massively influence Hitler and the Nazi ideology. This was at the time viewed as perfectly reasonable and scientific, with the purpose of studying eugenics and human genetics.

They were wrong, the community values were wrong and no group of people will ever be infallible.

[One Degree]

@One Degree

And how are you aware that this isn't supported by the community? How do you know banning face veils in the school isn't an individual decision?

Other than that I agree with you on everything else, especially on community. I see myself as a sort of communitarian in terms of my views.

You are right. This is the real issue. In all likelihood, some administrator made this decision on their own based upon newspaper accounts of what other schools were doing. Taking it to the school board (don't know the English equivalent), parents organization, etc. is the first step to find out if the community supports it. My experience is if they believe it is wrong, then they will stop it. Unfortunately, I have also found out that sometimes this is only temporary, because even if they know it is wrong, sometimes they want to do it anyway. For example: I stopped schools repeatedly from using students to sell candy and other commercial products, but it always resumed the next year. I finally understood the community knew it was wrong, but they wanted to do it anyway. So, I quit complaining because this is what they wanted.

[Zionist Nationalist]

From my point of view, the monkeys building bases of war and destruction in the Middle East are the real barbarians.

at least Israel can build something

Muslims cant build anything even their armies suck

[Zag Note: I'm going to have to ask you to tone down your language and "colorful" references.]

[One Degree]

Many times in history the supposed 'community values' have, quite frankly, been wrong and it has been up to individuals to fight the injustice before them. In the US that could be the values that allowed slavery to exist in the first place to the far longer discrimination that followed. Community values are often compromised with bullshit altitudes that have to be corrected by the greater community.

It is hard to criticize to what you yourself identify with. In the 1920's Sweden founded the first 'State Institute for Racial Biology' in the world, which would later massively influence Hitler and the Nazi ideology. This was at the time viewed as perfectly reasonable and scientific, with the purpose of studying eugenics and human genetics.

They were wrong, the community values were wrong and no group of people will ever be infallible.

Right or wrong do not necessarily have much to do with it. These communities you speak of would have changed eventually without outside interference. We are all copycats and basically lack originality. If a community sees something working, then they copy it. If an outside agency forces them to change then they will often change back at the first opportunity. Why do you think there is currently a conservative backlash?
I almost did not respond, because the arguments of widespread racism and Nazism, if you let local people make their own decisions, are just silly at best and show an incredible lack of faith in your fellow man. These thing were caused because they happened in a different time that had different values, not because local people made their own choices.

[Oxymandias]

@One Degree

What even is the rationality behind such a thing?

Do parents want their children to be used as advertising?

[Oxymandias]

@Zionist Nationalist

I am not referring to Israel. Not everything is about Israel or guess it is, if you're a Zionist.

Wow, such a childish comeback, you can't even back it up at all. Do you have anything smart or interesting to say Zionnie?