Terrorist opens fire at a country music festival in Las Vegas - Page 34 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14877124
In a country where firearms aren't allowed to people with mental diseases/dishonorable discharges and bump stocks/assault rifgles etc. are not allowed, it would have been very difficult for such a person to carry out the crime.

See Japan if you want to argue the point.
#14877140
Godstud wrote:In a country...

Fact: Illinois’ gun laws are still considered among the most restrictive when compared with other states.

Fact: Chicago has more gun violence than any other city.


:?:
#14877163
What it will do is make a Vegas incident impossible to carry out on a whim. If a perpetrator is determined enough, there are an estimated 450 million firearms floating around the USA, he will find a way.


Probably. This is true in England or Germany as well. But making something harder to do is a good start. Besides. Our big problem is not with domestic or foreign terrorism. Our gun problem goes far beyond that.

If people were no longer allowed to possess military style arms they would slowly disappear. Certainly prohibiting large magazines will make them a more scarce commodity. Preventing people from carrying handguns and greatly restricting new purchases (and make the illegal to sell between private parties) will make them increasingly harder to get and more dangerous to possess.

Most arguments seem to imagine the changes in our gun culture as an event. It would be a process.

Gun ownership in the US, when seen from abroad, looks like we are all toting. In fact only 30% of households own a firearm at all. About half of those say they could see owning a gun but don't own one and half say they would never own one under any circumstances.

Some in favor of guns cite hunting and target shooting as the reason most people own guns. According to polls this is not true. The number one reason people give for owning guns is personal protection. Rural people, where the threat of crime is lessened, tend to own more guns. College graduates fewer. Whites more than blacks, Hispanics least likely.

Many of these theoretical 450 million guns are in multiple gun households. 30% own five or more. The most prevalent ownership is handguns. Only 38% of gun owners say that hunting is the main reason they own guns. Clearly our gun culture is not about the annual deer hunt. It is about banging away at an intruder. (Except in rural areas where still just under half of owners say they keep guns for hunting.) Only 3 in 10 of gun owners cite target shooting as the reason they own guns.

So want a scary number? 70% of handgun owners say they sometimes carry outside of the home. Less than half of them say they frequently go to the range. Almost 20% say they never do.

More?

Only 13% are members of shooting clubs or ranges. How about the stupid factor:

Only two thirds of gun owners keep their guns locked up. 44% keep them unlocked and loaded. Only 41% "claim" to keep their shooting skills up-to-date. Only 24% tell visitors with children that there are loaded guns in the house. (And these mouth breathers admit this to pollsters. I wonder what the real number is.)

30% of gun owners have never taken a safety course and here is the scary part. Of those who only own one gun for personal protection less than half have ever taken a gun safety course. (Not to mention a personal protection course.)

84% of all Americans favor background checks.

71% favor a federal database to track gun sales.

68% favor banning assault type weapons.

65% favor banning high-capacity magazines (Over 10 rounds)

81% of Americans favor banning concealed carry without a permit.

Yet we do not get what we want. Why? Because gun owners are more likely to contact their elected officials than non gun owners. And the NRA has a disproportionate strength with lawmakers.

So what do we know? Gun ownership is dropping. Not the number of guns which is growing but the percentage of people who own them. Perhaps in time guns will go the way of the buggy whip.

In the meantime we ought to give the people what they want by a considerable majority. Ban assault weapons. License gun ownership. Prevent concealed carry without a license Ban high capacity magazines.

This will never happen as long as we have a Senate that gives equal power to a senator with less than a million constituents as we do one with 40 million. So guns are around to stay and it is up to localities to handle them.













editing. hit the button too early.
#14877178
Crantag wrote:But it was annoying, because I was just giving my opinion, but I know that the people who fervently believe in the right to keep and arm bears with any and all implements related to death by firearms, i.e., large capacity clips; silencers; assault weapons; weapons capable of spraying bullets; etc., are well beyond reason on the topic, and are only interested in pushing an agenda.

Where have I done this on this forum? Or is this another insult from you?

Crantag wrote:Your comment to the effect "name a firearm associated with more violent crimes then silencers" was all I needed to read to know that you fall into the category of those beyond reason.

Why am I beyond reason when I say this? Do you think there is a silencer crime problem in the USA?

Crantag wrote:Therefore, I was wishing not to engage, while instead preferring to stick by my previous sentiment.

Where does this sentiment come from anyway? Why would you have any reason at all to b against silencers?
#14877180
Drlee wrote:....
But you are enamored with silencers. To put away your first argument. I don't care if one has never been used to commit a crime. Actually about 44 a year are according to the ATF but that does not matter to me at all. The fact is that a tiny percentage of all firearms are used in crimes. So what is your point when you say they are not often used in crimes?

I'm not actually enamored with silencers; they're just mufflers for guns. I'm saying they're a benefit and very low risk.

Silencers "could" make a gun more dangerous if that is the intent of the user.

Evidence to support this claim?

It's clear you are merely blowing a lot of smoke. So far you're merely gone from "silencers are immoral" to "they could make a gun more dangerous". So tell me how they make a gun more dangerous. They'e still noisy when suppressed, but less likely to cause hearing loss.
#14877194
It's clear you are merely blowing a lot of smoke. So far you're merely gone from "silencers are immoral" to "they could make a gun more dangerous". So tell me how they make a gun more dangerous. They'e still noisy when suppressed, but less likely to cause hearing loss.


You just don't get it do you. I did not change my position on silencers at all. I still believe silencers are immoral. But that does not matter at all.

What part of all of that shit I posted do you not understand? You want to make the issue silencers. It is most definitely not. I am not going to argue silencers with you and you should have gotten that by now. I will let the others here make their own decisions about them. What you should be concerned about in the case of people like me is that you would have access to vastly fewer firearms on which to put silencers. Tell you what sport. I will make you a deal. You agree that we should eliminate all semi-automatic weapons, especially the military designs, limit magazines to 5 rounds, license all handgun owners and additionally prohibit carrying them in public unless a need can be shown, training is required and an additional license obtained. Ban "cop-killer" ammunition and only allow expanding point pistol ammunition with a license and require all gun purchases to go through a licensed dealer and registration secured. You do all of that and I will let you have all of the silencers your little heart desires.
#14877208
Ranb wrote:Where have I done this on this forum? Or is this another insult from you?


Why am I beyond reason when I say this? Do you think there is a silencer crime problem in the USA?


Where does this sentiment come from anyway? Why would you have any reason at all to b against silencers?


The answer to your first and last question lies in the answer to your second question.

Though the fact that you need an explanation is telling in itself.

A silencer is an appendage to a gun, which is capable of making the gun still more cynical in the hands of say a criminal.

A silencer is not a substitute for a gun, and thus comparable in such a way. It is rather a modifying device.

Do you really require this explanation? I think you are simply playing games. (I kind of hope that is the case, merely for your own sake).
#14877223
Drlee wrote:You just don't get it do you. I did not change my position on silencers at all.

What I don't get is your attitude towards certain types of firearms. You think some are okay, but others are not. And for some reason you're gone from silencers simply being immoral for some reason to also being dangerous.

Drlee wrote: I still believe silencers are immoral. But that does not matter at all.

It matters to me. You've said on a public forum that silencers (and therefore their owners) are immoral and have yet to show any rational reason for your attitude.

Drlee wrote:What part of all of that shit I posted do you not understand? You want to make the issue silencers. It is most definitely not.

You made it the issue by calling them immoral.


Drlee wrote: I am not going to argue silencers with you and you should have gotten that by now. I will let the others here make their own decisions about them.

But you've been arguing and most ineffectively I might add. No one needs you to let them make their own decisions about firearms. But it's nice to know I have a "by your leave" on the topic.

Drlee wrote:What you should be concerned about in the case of people like me is that you would have access to vastly fewer firearms on which to put silencers.

People like you seem to be incapable of rational discussions on a topic like this. Good luck convincing anyone that you know what you're talking about.

Drlee wrote:Tell you what sport. I will make you a deal. You agree that we should eliminate all semi-automatic weapons, especially the military designs, limit magazines to 5 rounds, license all handgun owners and additionally prohibit carrying them in public unless a need can be shown, training is required and an additional license obtained.

What did your state level Rep or Senator say about this proposal when you discussed it with them?

Drlee wrote: Ban "cop-killer" ammunition and only allow expanding point pistol ammunition with a license

What are these "cop killer" bullets you speak of. I think they're an urban legend. There is of course armor piercing ammo available, but as far as I know they've never been used by civilians to kill police officers. You sound like you're been watching too many movies.

Drlee wrote: and require all gun purchases to go through a licensed dealer and registration secured. You do all of that and I will let you have all of the silencers your little heart desires.

I'm able to have all the silencers I want. They've never been illegal in the USA.
Last edited by Ranb on 06 Jan 2018 20:23, edited 1 time in total.
#14877224
Crantag wrote:Do you really require this explanation? I think you are simply playing games. (I kind of hope that is the case, merely for your own sake).

Not playing games here. I get the same kind of run around on other forums from people who try to convince me that racism and misogyny are acceptable kinds of behavior.
#14877232
Ranb wrote:Not playing games here. I get the same kind of run around on other forums from people who try to convince me that racism and misogyny are acceptable kinds of behavior.


:lol: :lol:

You aren't even equating questioning silencers with racism and misogyny.

You are equating pointing out an error in your logic (which a 3rd grader could spot), as equivalent to racism and misogyny.

Ah, the mental gymnastics people will attempt, never ceases to amaze me.
#14877243
Crantag wrote::lol: :lol:

You aren't even equating questioning silencers with racism and misogyny.

You are equating pointing out an error in your logic (which a 3rd grader could spot), as equivalent to racism and misogyny.

Ah, the mental gymnastics people will attempt, never ceases to amaze me.

So what was my error? Asking why a person thinks an inanimate object is immoral?
#14877247
Godstud wrote:Well said, Drlee. I concur.

With proper firearm controls in place, the Vegas incident would not have been possible.

Other means of violence are available to insanely antisocial North Americans. Like running over people in cars and poisoning people. Or paying an assassin if you have money.

The idea that repressive laws can save us from our own technological violence is very short-sighted.
#14877250
Ranb wrote:So what was my error? Asking why a person thinks an inanimate object is immoral?


I already told you this, but you probably are incapable of reading and comprehending anything which doesn't conform to your confirmation bias.

I'm not going to play a game of tit-for-tat with you. A statement like, "name a firearm less associated with violent crimes than silencers", speaks for itself with respect to the mush between your head which you use for brains.

A silencer is useless without a gun, the gun being no less dangerous with a silencer (though potentially more dangerous in the hands of a cynical operator). Like I said, a silencer is not a substitute for a gun. It is an add-on. Hence, the nature of your logical fallacy is self-apparent.

So, you are either dishonest or utterly illogical. A world typified by irrational thought is the world occupied by a psychopath.
#14877252
Crantag wrote:A silencer is useless without a gun, the gun being no less dangerous with a silencer (though potentially more dangerous in the hands of a cynical operator). Like I said, a silencer is not a substitute for a gun. It is an add-on. Hence, the nature of your logical fallacy is self-apparent.

So, you are either dishonest or utterly illogical. A world typified by irrational thought is the world occupied by a psychopath.

With this kind of generalized gun-loving, it's useless to preach stricter laws or gun control to stop these kinds of daily massacres.

It's better to just accept the fact that everyone is carrying assault weapons (with or without silencers) and try to work within the boundaries of a cynical society in decline where everyone is armed.

Instead of preaching gun control, preach to gun-owners: "It's not really okay to kill dozens of people even if you don't really like the same kinds of music."

That type of kumbaya-gun-owners-kumbaya is, at least, do-able and shovel-ready.
#14877261
Crantag wrote:I already told you this, but you probably are incapable of reading and comprehending anything which doesn't conform to your confirmation bias......

You are incapable of a direct, honest answer to a question. I merely asked why silencers were immoral and have so far only read a large amount of crap that had little to do with silencers. You seem to prefer insults to rational conversation.
#14877265
Ranb wrote:You are incapable of a direct, honest answer to a question. I merely asked why silencers were immoral and have so far only read a large amount of crap that had little to do with silencers. You seem to prefer insults to rational conversation.

I see you there, searching for a moral high ground.

The aim of my rhetorical style hasn't been to pay you compliments, but to supply a critique which is pointed and direct.

I have answered your questions in the process of this.

I didn't answer them expecting you would like my conclusions, and you confirm that you did not, which means nothing to me (other than perhaps that I'm doing something right).
#14877269
Crantag wrote:I see you there, searching for a moral high ground.

I have the moral high ground in case you haven't noticed. I've asked for evidence or reasons for a position and instead have been insulted by you and drlee.

I have answered your questions in the process of this.

How about you give a direct answer instead of rhetoric?
#14877272
Ranb wrote:I have the moral high ground in case you haven't noticed. I've asked for evidence or reasons for a position and instead have been insulted by you and drlee.


How about you give a direct answer instead of rhetoric?


I have given an answer.

I said engaging in an activity in one's personal time and capacities, the end result of which, is proliferating the production of and the craft of producing silencers, indeed to me is immoral.

I said that a long time ago.

It is only because you and others want to argue (while employing logical fallacies to do so) that additional rhetoric attained.
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