[foxdemon]

Spain is going to Crush Catalonia and arrest all its rebels. But it will serve to further discredit the EU and by extension NATO.

Russia will grow stronger.

Well, every alternative to the EU will grow stronger. So China, India, etc will all look more reasonable in future.

The problem for the West is the blatant hypocrisy for not intervening to protect Catalan human rights and self determination when the West so often uses that excuse to involve themselves in separatist struggles elsewhere in the world. I guess the EU is lucky the China isn’t quite powerful enough yet to send a fleet to ‘protect human rights’ in Europe.

[Ned Lud]

I like diversity, too, which is why I consider this independence malarkey to be a load of bunkum and why I voted to remain as a fully paid up member of the EU.

Not because I believe the EU is perfect, but because my common sense tells me we're better together.

Scratch the surface of the average independence fighter and you find a racist moron with the common sense of a louse.

Nothing I've heard or read anywhere has given me reason to believe anything else.

That is guff, actually: come and meet some Plaid Cymru members - they are far more internationalist than the English-based parties, and they believe in the EU.

[Potemkin]

No, they cannot do that (the crushing) in the YouTube era.

Yes, they can. The integrity of the Spanish nation-state is at stake here. My guess is that the Spanish government will just accept whatever loss of face it has to in order to preserve the existence of the Spanish nation-state. They will crush the Catalan independence movement (albeit at a high political cost). This will likely rumble on for another few decades before eventually petering out. The heavy-handed response by the Spanish government was due to the fact that the Catalan independence movement seem to have tried to 'bounce' Catalonia into independence by taking everyone by surprise. Even the Socialist Party in Catalonia has criticised the independence movement for not consulting with them or indeed with anyone else before holding the referendum on very short notice. They caught the Spanish government by surprise with this referendum, and they didn't know what to do except send in the troops.

[Heisenberg]

The problem is that, if they really thought the referendum was illegitimate and a "mockery of democracy", they could have simply ignored it. By sending in police officers kitted out like Starship Troopers, beating elderly women with batons, and shooting people with rubber bullets for casting a "meaningless" ballot, they will have radicalised a hell of a lot more people. It's astonishingly stupid, thuggish behaviour.

Like I said before though, I'm glad we've had another plain example of the EU not giving a toss about its declared values. The next time an EU admirer waxes lyrical about how it played such a huge part in Spanish democracy, remind them of their implicit support for Francoist tactics against the people of Catalonia.

[AFAIK]

I agree with Heisenberg. Madrid could have said, "Enjoy your referendum but secession is unconstitutional so the result is meaningless." Instead it appears that Madrid favours independence for Catalonia and is pushing every apathetic, undecided and ambivalent voter towards supporting a split.

[Beren]

I really don't understand the Spanish government, except that they're stupid right-wingers, but even then they should be smarter than that.

The Yes camp has successfully created an image of consensus around independence – witness the million people they mobilised on the streets of Barcelona last week for Catalonia’s national day – but these impressive shows of popular power mask the fact that there is still only a minority in favour of secession. A survey at the end of July found that 49.4% of Catalans were against independence and 41.1% supported it.

I wonder why Madrid acts like it's the opposite and the majority supports independence. This is counterproductive.

Like I said before though, I'm glad we've had another plain example of the EU not giving a toss about its declared values.

If the EU intervened in any ways, it would be blamed for not respecting one of its member's sacrosanct national sovereignty. Whatever the EU does in this situation, it's a great opportunity to blame it. However, I wouldn't have believed you're frustrated about it so much that you grab the opportunity in each of your posts.

[Heisenberg]

If the EU intervened in any ways, it would be blamed for not respecting one of its member's sacrosanct national sovereignty. Whatever the EU does in this situation, it's a great opportunity to blame it.

The EU has proven that it is perfectly willing to interfere with members' sovereignty when it suits it, such as the recent case with Poland.

However, I wouldn't have believed you're frustrated about it so much that you grab the opportunity in each of your posts.

Since this is an issue directly pertaining to the EU, I think it's reasonable to bring it up. It's not like I mention it in every thread, and in any case, pointing out flagrant hypocrisy is good fun.

[Beren]

The EU has proven that it is perfectly willing to interfere with members' sovereignty when it suits it, such as the recent case with Poland.

And the EU is blamed for it, isn't it? However, interfering with a member's judiciary system is not the same as interfering when a country's integrity is at stake.

Since this is an issue directly pertaining to the EU, I think it's reasonable to bring it up. It's not like I mention it in every thread, and in any case, pointing out flagrant hypocrisy is good fun.

It must be good fun for you indeed, since it's the third or the fourth time at least you just did it. You should rather put it in your sig, if it's such fun for you.

[Heisenberg]

If only my opponents would shut up and go away, and acknowledge my perfect righteousness.

[Beren]

If only my opponents would shut up and go away, and acknowledge my perfect righteousness.

It would more stylish to put your feelings about the EU in your sig than posting them so frequently. However, this is just an opinion.

[Heisenberg]

It's literally a thread about the suppression of a democratic vote in an EU member state. I understand why bringing this up makes you uncomfortable, but whingeing that I am bringing it up, or saying it is not "stylish" (what the hell does that even mean? ), is not an argument.

[Beren]

It's literally a thread about the suppression of a democratic vote in an EU member state. I understand why bringing this up makes you uncomfortable, but whingeing that I am bringing it up, or saying it is not "stylish" (what the hell does that even mean? ), is not an argument.

It's not supposed to be an argument, however, if you find the EU so hypocritical and grab the opportunity to post about it practically anytime you can, maybe you should consider putting it in your sig.

[Potemkin]

It's literally a thread about the suppression of a democratic vote in an EU member state.

There are democratic votes and then there are democratic votes. If the majority of the citizens of a small town voted to secede from their nation-state, would that vote be legal and binding on the nation-state? Would the EU have to recognise the 'independence' of that small town? A referendum has to be legal before it can be binding on both parties. Otherwise, we call it a 'revolution', and revolutions are illegal by definition.

[Heisenberg]

That's a bit disingenuous. The Catalan independence movement is a little more developed than a "small town" voting to secede, and comes in the context of prolonged repression by the Spanish state, much of it violent.

There's also the point that Spain would never accept or recognise a "legal" referendum anyway, which simply highlights that this is a forced marriage, rather than a willing union.

[Victoribus Spolia]

I am torn on this whole issue, partly because I am not privy to all of the details to make an entirely informed opinion, but I have my gut right?

My starting premises that lead to my conflicted thoughts are that social-contract revolutions are generally illegitimate and ought to be crushed for the treasonous acts they are (some exceptions do apply) and that the European Union is a corrupt globalist empire that needs to collapse.....see the tension?

The catalans may have a right to secede historically speaking (i'm still not convinced that they do), and the regime they would create would likely be an ironically EU friendly regime (ideologically speaking) even though their emergence would be near fatal to the EU in the long run, so though I am kinda of inclined towards Spain's right to crush the leftist Catalans, their independence might help sink the EU leviathan. This paradox is enough to make Pepe's head explode.

Had Scotland left, it would have actually been financially beneficial for England and economically problematic for the EU even though Scotland was undoubtedly more globalist, multi-cultural, and socialist than England and even many EU member-states. Likewise the Catalans seem to be like the Scottish, except their departure would NOT be economically beneficial for the more conservative Spanish government. Indeed, the Spanish government would subsequently create a huge and destructive financial drain on the EU (as Scotland would have) and the Catalans would likely motivate more populist uprisings in the EU despite being ideologically opposite to most of them (which the Scottish would have done as well had their attempt been successful).

Grab your popcorn gents, its going to be an epic show, and we haven't even begun to discuss what the Slavs and Magyars have been up to.

[mikema63]

Not that I know enough about the specific situation to have a firm opinion. But by that logic the Souths succession should have been allowed by the US. The north would never have recognized a referendum and the south certainly felt oppressed by the north (though the moral outrage against having your right to own slaves oppressed is generally regarded nowadays as nonsense).

While I don't have anything against catalonia separating I don't think they really have the objective right to do so either.

[Beren]

There's also the point that Spain would never accept or recognise a "legal" referendum anyway, which simply highlights that this is a forced marriage, rather than a willing union.

It was a forced marriage, but not even the majority of the Catalans want to secede now, so it would rather be a divorce forced by the minority. Although the right-wing Spanish government can't get rid of its Francoist heritage and habits, it's not the Franco era anymore.

And now let's point out the EU's hypocrisy, please, because it's always appropriate, in this thread especially!

[Heisenberg]

Not that I know enough about the specific situation to have a firm opinion. But by that logic the Souths succession should have been allowed by the US. The north would never have recognized a referendum and the south certainly felt oppressed by the north (though the moral outrage against having your right to own slaves oppressed is generally regarded nowadays as nonsense).

While I don't have anything against catalonia separating I don't think they really have the objective right to do so either.

I know where you're coming from, but not every historical situation is comparable. Catalonia is a nation with a distinct history, language and ethnic group, that has historically been subject to quite nasty behaviour from Spain. The American South was none of those things, and its secession was an ideological one.

If western nations are so keen to recognise Kosovo, a tiny self-declared statelet carved out of Serbia and with no real history to speak of, they should at least recognise that violent repression of the kind seen on Sunday is not the civilised way to do things.

[mikema63]

If western nations are so keen to recognise Kosovo, a tiny self-declared statelet carved out of Serbia and with no real history to speak of, they should at least recognise that violent repression of the kind seen on Sunday is not the civilised way to do things.

Well yes I don't think Spain is going about this whole thing particularly well but ultimately if their position is that there will be no leaving then the only alternative for Catalonia is revolution. So Spain is getting out in front of that which is rational even if I disagree with it.

The double standard is probably because many view the seperation as damaging to their interests in a way that Kosovo isn't, which is pretty normal hypocrisy in world politics.

[Ter]

Since Kosovo was brought up, let's remember that Spain does not recognise it precisely because of their own provinces and regions that would like a divorce.

Spain is the only major country in Western Europe that has not recognised Kosovo, originally because of objections to the legality of its unilateral declaration of independence under international law, and also due to concerns about possible implications regarding its own issues with independence movements in the northern regions. Although it has given indications that its stance may change, increasing political tensions make it unlikely that Spain will soften its current position.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internati ... _of_Kosovo

In May 2009 José García-Margallo y Marfil, Spanish member of the EU parliament, said that Spain does not recognise Kosovo because of principles related to Spain's Galicia, Basque, and Catalonia autonomous communities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain%27s ... dependence

There are many countries (including China and Russia) that will never recognise Kosovo as an independent country, they all have their own minority provinces that might want to leave sooner or later.

But, as my history teacher told me, the two strongest forces in humanity are religion and nationalism. This struggle for independence of Catalonia will not stop.