[Beren]

then the only alternative for Catalonia is revolution.

There will be no revolution, although the Spanish government does its best to have one. There are referendums in Catalonia from time to time, but they always fail. Most Catalans want more and more autonomy within Spain because it's the best for them, especially since they are in the EU and the Eurozone, of which they couldn't be a member if they seceded from Spain. However, I'm sure many PoFoers would be willing to form the International Brigades again, whereas others would like to reestablish the Condor Legion.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Most Catalans want more and more autonomy within Spain because it's the best for them, especially since they are in the EU and the Eurozone, of which they couldn't be a member if they seceded from Spain.

I agree. Catalonia is very pro-EU and presumably wants to remain a member, something that would be pretty much impossible if they secede.

Considering this, they are not going about this in the best way either as Spain's stance may well have hardened in response to the events there too.

[SolarCross]

The EU is standing with the Spanish government it seems. The Catalonians like to be in the EU but if the EU makes life difficult for them because of this then perhaps they could become a commonwealth realm something like Gibraltar instead.

[ingliz]

The EU is standing with the Spanish government it seems.

Why should they meddle? It is a local matter that has nothing to do with the EU.

Spain is a highly de-centralised unitary state that is effectively a federal state.

For the federal States, this Charter in no way affects the division of powers and responsibilities between the federal State and the federated States.

[Politiks]

It you make peaceful revelution improssoble you make violent revolution ineveitable. Lets hope the Catalans crush the Castilians and free themselevs from the prison of nations that is Spain. I can't belive that Madrid moans about Gibralter when it can't control them empire that it already has. Independence for the Catalans, independence for the Basque and Galicia to Portrugal. Fuck the Castilian dogs. They should be greatful they are allowed to have Leon.

Historically Spain is terrible at keeping Empires or any region united under their doamin. South America and Central America were once part of the Spanish Empire, now is divided in many countries while USA and Brazil remained a single country. Clearly the Brits and Portuguese won the Empire keeping competition over Spain and France.

Galician as a language is closer to Portuguese than Spanish and they seem to prefer Portugal over Castillians.

[Ned Lud]

Remember that 'the Brits' belong to at least five different nationalities, and the local bullyboys subbed their toes very, very badly on Ireland, so they tend to watch their step.

[redcarpet]

While many of the independence/secessionist movements have existed for a long time, the EU seems to serve as a catalyst at least in some cases. That's one reason why the EU opposes them. Any indication of support at the EU level would lead to a backlash by the member states who have such movements.

Of course, I'd question whether separating from a member state while staying an EU and/or Eurozone member should be considered real independence.

It's not. A member state of the EU has like barely 20% sovereignty as it were. To be a member of the EU requires transferring it to the EU institutions.

Just as the Scottish referendum independence was a sham; the SNP was going to have Scotland be in the EU. So they DIDN'T want independence of Scotland, except from London.

[Hong Wu]

I oppose corruption to a fault, but I get tired of people attacking China for corruption when everyone in the American legislature becomes a millionaire off of a low six figure salary within a few years. The difference to me seems to be less in the levels of corruption and more in that the Chinese can actually complete public projects, while places like Puerto Rico can't even maintain what they already have adequately and then when some people get tired of this kind of thing and want to secede, the liberals activate their military hacker cells and send in armored guys with shotguns that have silencers on them. But everyone else is worse and white people need to die or whatever

[Prosthetic Conscience]

I oppose corruption to a fault, but I get tired of people attacking China for corruption when everyone in the American legislature becomes a millionaire off of a low six figure salary within a few years. The difference to me seems to be less in the levels of corruption and more in that the Chinese can actually complete public projects, while places like Puerto Rico can't even maintain what they already have adequately and then when some people get tired of this kind of thing and want to secede, the liberals activate their military hacker cells and send in armored guys with shotguns that have silencers on them. But everyone else is worse and white people need to die or whatever

Wrong thread? No one else is talking about Chinese corruption, or Puerto Rico. And once you typed the word 'liberals', all reason seems to have left you, and it becomes a rant about being opposed to your own fantasy scenario.

[anarchist23]

Spanish police are ready to arrest Catalan President Carles Puigdemont immediately if he declares independence in the regional parliament.

A final decision on whether to act has not yet been taken, Spain’s National Police force has elite officers deployed in Catalonia who are prepared to join a raid if Catalan police try to shield Puigdemont, said one of the people. If Puigdemont makes a statement that falls short of immediate independence, the government in Madrid may stay its hand.
The president is likely to use the words “declaration of independence,” but they will probably be qualified or hedged in some way, according to another person familiar with his plans. The Catalan government spokesman declined to comment on Puigdemont’s speech at a press briefing in Barcelona on Tuesday.
Puigdemont is due to address the regional legislature at 6 p.m with many of his supporters looking for him to announce a new republic to follow through on the makeshift referendum held on Oct. 1. With his core supporters demanding he make good on the illegal vote for independence and officials in Madrid urging Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy to finally crack down on the separatist campaign, Puigdemont’s rebellion may be running out of road.
Rajoy has insisted all along that he’ll use only proportionate force in relation to the separatist government in Barcelona. Even so, prosecutors have been exploring charges of sedition against other separatist leaders including Jordi Sanchez, head of the biggest pro-independence campaign group. Sedition carries a jail term of up to 15 years.
The National Police and the Civil Guard have sufficient officers in place to overcome any resistance they might meet, according to one of the people familiar with the government’s preparations. Both people asked not to be named discussing confidential plans.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ader-today

.

[Ter]

Spanish police are ready to arrest Catalan President Carles Puigdemont immediately if he declares independence in the regional parliament.

Yes, make him a martyr for the cause, that will help... Not!
The Spaniards are making the wrong moves one after another.

[anarchist23]

Yes, make him a martyr for the cause, that will help... Not!
The Spaniards are making the wrong moves one after another.

Without a doubt.
Madrid have fucked up big time. What's happening at this very minute is fucking amazing. And they say politics is boring. lol

[Beren]

The French have already declared they wouldn't recognise an independent Catalonia and companies flee from there. I wonder how far Catalans go screwing themselves.

[anarchist23]

The Guardia Civil are hated and will take over Barcelona if Catalona declares independence. This is crazy.

The Guardia Civil is the oldest law enforcement agency in Spain. It is organised as a military force charged with police duties under the authority of both the Ministry of the Interior and the Ministry of Defence.

wiki

[Beren]

Whatever any police force do you call it crazy, don't you?

[Decky]

Who cares? Once Spanish Catalonia is free they can go to war with the frogs to free French Catalonia. The garlic munchers won't dare nuke a country right next to them. No one needs forign investment, all enterpises need to be owned by a nation's own people anyway. There is nothing too small to be nationalised in this world.

[Heisenberg]

It seems to me that liberals (and I mean this in the broad sense) simply don't understand that people aren't solely motivated by money. This is why the doom-mongering over the Scottish referendum so nearly backfired, and why it failed completely in the EU referendum: if people believe seriously in a political cause like national independence, they are usually willing to take an economic hit to see it realised. I don't hear many Irishmen complaining about what a disaster it was to declare independence from the UK, despite the fact it took them several decades to prosper afterwards.

[Decky]

It seems to me that liberals (and I mean this in the broad sense) simply don't understand that people aren't solely motivated by money. This is why the doom-mongering over the Scottish referendum so nearly backfired, and why it failed completely in the EU referendum: if people believe seriously in a political cause like national independence, they are usually willing to take an economic hit to see it realised. I don't hear many Irishmen complaining about what a disaster it was to declare independence from the UK, despite the fact it took them several decades to prosper afterwards.

The rich are rootless cosmopolitans loyal only to the mighty mamon. They even move to other countries and go on holiday abroad instead of going to the seaside! I expect any feeling of comunal solidarity amoung the workers of diferent nations confuses them utterly. Just becuase they would sell their grandmother into slaver for a fiver they think everyone is like that.

[anarchist23]

Whatever any police force do you call it crazy, don't you?

I've been to Catalona about a dozen times. The Guardia Civil are not ordinary police, they are military police. They are disliked in Catalona.
I've had many dealings with them and they are thugs. Squaddies

[Beren]

It seems to me that liberals (and I mean this in the broad sense) simply don't understand that people aren't solely motivated by money. This is why the doom-mongering over the Scottish referendum so nearly backfired, and why it failed completely in the EU referendum: if people believe seriously in a political cause like national independence, they are usually willing to take an economic hit to see it realised. I don't hear many Irishmen complaining about what a disaster it was to declare independence from the UK, despite the fact it took them several decades to prosper afterwards.

Catalonia's independence wouldn't be like Scottish independence or Brexit. It would be really screwing, and it would result in a civil war perhaps.

I've been to Catalona about a dozen times. The Guardia Civil are not ordinary police, they are military police. They are disliked in Catalona.
I've had many dealings with them and they are thugs. Squaddies

Whether they're disliked or not, if Catalonia declares independence, then Spain will have to occupy them.