[Kaiserschmarrn]

Catalonia's independence wouldn't be like Scottish independence or Brexit. It would be really screwing, and it would result in a civil war perhaps.

The point is that economic considerations are secondary if people really want independence.

I'm not prepared to accept the outcome of the referendum though, considering the disruptions and apparent boycott by opponents. I also think that people's perceptions are skewed when it comes to historical examples of independence movements. There is a survival bias which leads us to believe that suppression doesn't work.

[Bulaba Khan Jones]

With Decky probably sleeping off a binge of drinking right now, it behooves me to say something he might say. Whether Catalonia becomes independent or not, remains autonomous or not, or remains part of Spain with less autonomy or not, Catalonia's people will still be exploited by the idle capitalist class at the end of the day.

[Kaiserschmarrn]

Catalan leader declares independence but puts it on hold

Regional leader suspends declaration of independence pending what he hopes will be talks with Madrid.

BARCELONA — Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said Tuesday he would act on what he called a popular mandate to declare independence from Spain but first wanted dialogue with Madrid to ensure it is a peaceful process.

“The ballot boxes say Yes to independence and this is the path I am determined to follow,” the regional president told the Catalan parliament. “I assume the mandate of the people for Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic.”

However, he immediately asked the Catalan parliament to suspend the act of independence for some weeks to allow for a period of negotiation with the Spanish government.

By doing so Puigdemont may have gone too far for Madrid, and not far enough for the most radical separatists.

The youth branch of the radical-left CUP, the junior partner of the Catalan pro-independence alliance, tweeted that they were witnessing “unacceptable treason.”

A senior Spanish government official said the central government can’t accept that Puigdemont endorses the validity of the referendum law — which has been suspended by the Constitutional Court — or the referendum itself. The official said “an implicit declaration of independence [only] to suspend it afterward” wasn’t acceptable either.

A few hours earlier, European Council President Donald Tusk had urged Puigdemont to “respect … the constitutional order and not to announce a decision that would make such a dialogue [with Madrid] impossible.”

Puigdemont says an October 1 referendum in Catalonia — when a majority of those who voted were in favor of separating from Spain, but the turnout was only 42 percent of the region’s electorate — gave him the mandate for secession. However, threats by local businesses to pull out of the region have given many Catalans pause for thought and led to increased calls for dialogue rather than divorce.

[Heisenberg]

He bottled it. Why won't he just declare war on Spain, as any decent nation would? Will it really fall to the Royal Navy to put down the Armada again?

[Rancid]

No civil war?

[Beren]

Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said Tuesday he would act on what he called a popular mandate to declare independence from Spain but first wanted dialogue with Madrid to ensure it is a peaceful process.

No it isn't, so what now? Independence cancelled?

I'm sure they mean to withdraw like they won and we just deal with simple morons here who don't want to end up in jail.

[Hong Wu]

Wrong thread? No one else is talking about Chinese corruption, or Puerto Rico. And once you typed the word 'liberals', all reason seems to have left you, and it becomes a rant about being opposed to your own fantasy scenario.

It's all connected, man! This Catalonia thing is people trying to get away from the decaying state of western civilization. And when they try to get out, in come the accusations, virtue signaling and an increasingly reluctant military.

[anarchist23]

Catalonians have been fighting for independence since the thirties. They are anti monarchy and were in the main republicans in the Spanish Civil War.
Here we have anarchists of Barcelona in 1936.

[Beren]

And now we have this joke in Barcelona:


Official face of Catalan "independence".

[anarchist23]

The Catalonian government has pulled up short of immediate independence.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont and other regional leaders have signed a declaration of independence from Spain, following the disputed referendum.
However, they say the move will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.
The document calls for Catalonia to be recognised as an "independent and sovereign state".

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41574172

[Potemkin]

“The ballot boxes say Yes to independence and this is the path I am determined to follow,” the regional president told the Catalan parliament. “I assume the mandate of the people for Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic.”

However, he immediately asked the Catalan parliament to suspend the act of independence for some weeks to allow for a period of negotiation with the Spanish government.

In other words, he wants a revolution without a revolution.

He's a bozo. He has pushed Spain to be brink of civil war, and now he's bottled it and wants to row back. Nope, too late asshole! This guy isn't the Robert the Bruce of Catalonia, he's the John Balliol of Catalonia. Lol!

By doing so Puigdemont may have gone too far for Madrid, and not far enough for the most radical separatists.

Precisely. He'll be living in exile in South America before too long, drinking himself to death and wondering where it all went wrong.

[Beren]

However, they say the move will not be implemented for several weeks to allow talks with the government in Madrid.

They had to declare independence and need some time to walk back. In my opinion Puigdemont will resign at the end and elections will follow perhaps.

[Hong Wu]

I haven't seen any indication that the Catalonians intend to fight. They just want to peacefully stop participating. I swear I've heard that somewhere before...

This probably ends with what amounts to a declaration of enslavement of Catalonia.

[Beren]

They don't even want to stop participating. If the joke president of Catalonia had the popular support needed to secede indeed, he wouldn't have declared joke independence instead of a real one.

[Potemkin]

I've always wondered what goes on inside the mind of a John Balliol or an Alexander Kerensky or a Carles Puigdemont. They seem to want an abstract ideal in a day-dreaming, wistful sort of way, but they aren't willing to do the messy and unpleasant business required to actually achieve it. Which would be fine of they confined themselves to day-dreaming, but they try to act out their fantasies in reality in a totally ineffectual and half-assed way. Then, when the shit hits the fan, they bottle it and start calling for "dialogue" and suggesting a "compromise" at a time when a dialogue would be meaningless and a compromise would please nobody. What are they thinking? What's going through their minds? Fuck knows.

[Beren]

I don't understand the whole thing.

At first, Puigdemont lacks charisma. At second, they don't have the popular support they need. At third, they don't have the means to overcome Spanish intervention and resistance. At fourth, nobody is willing to recognise Catalan independence, companies would flee from there, and it's very questionable whether they could be a viable state at all.

So how the hell has all this happened?

[Rugoz]

What are they thinking? What's going through their minds? Fuck knows.

Seems pretty obvious to me. Catalonia cannot realistically achieve independence now, but it made the Spanish government look like a bunch of fascists. A small propaganda victory.

At first, Puigdemont lacks charisma. At second, they don't have the popular support they need.

Yet there was strong popular support for holding a referendum and the Spanish government prevented its proper execution.

[Decky]

There is popular support for freedom, those who marched for remaining vasals of Spain are Castilans and other foreigners living in Catalonia, they were not Catalans.

[Beren]

If the majority in Catalonia is not Catalan, then it's not even Catalonia anymore.

[Decky]

Fascist. Your precious Franco is dead, maybe it is time to get over it? The EU will crumble to dust and Europe will be free.