Catalonia crisis: Spain moves to suspend autonomy - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14843983
The Spanish government has given the regional government in Catalonia 48 hours to abandon "illegal" referendum plans or lose budgetary powers.

Finance Minister Cristóbal Montoro said a mechanism had been approved for the state to take control of the autonomous region's finances.

Madrid is seeking to stop the Catalan government spending public money on its planned independence referendum.

The Catalans are defying a court order to suspend the 1 October vote.

Catalan President Carles Puigdemont launched his campaign for a "Yes" vote on Thursday night in the town of Tarragona, telling a rally at a former bullring: "Vote, and in so doing bring light to darkness that has lasted for too many years."

The crowd shouted back, "Independence", "We will vote" and "We're not afraid", AFP news agency reports.

Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy was taking the unionist cause directly to Barcelona on Friday, addressing a meeting of his Popular Party in the Catalan capital.

If the deadline is not met, the central government will take over the funding of most essential public services in the region, Mr Montoro said.

"These measures are to guarantee that not one euro will go toward financing illegal acts," he was quoted as saying by Reuters news agency after a cabinet meeting in Madrid.

The takeover would last as long as the "situation", he explained.

Public finances are a particularly sore point for Catalans who for years have contributed more to the state budget than they get back in spending on public services.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41284764

Discuss.
#14844005
This is a losing situation for the Spanish government.

The Catalonians are not just a richer province, they have their own language, culture and history
and they feel they are disadvantaged remaining part of Spain.

Somebody should tell the Spanish government that they cannot make nationalistic feelings go away without harsh repression or genocide. Unfortunately for the government, there are too many OVO's to do that (Oy Vey Organizations like Amnesty, Human Right Watch and other Soros-sponsored shits).

I personally have no beef with the Spanish. It is one of the only countries in Europe that I have not visited. I am however happy to see another problem arising within the EU. Maybe the drunkard Juncker can try to solve the problem?
#14844058
It you make peaceful revelution improssoble you make violent revolution ineveitable. Lets hope the Catalans crush the Castilians and free themselevs from the prison of nations that is Spain. I can't belive that Madrid moans about Gibralter when it can't control them empire that it already has. Independence for the Catalans, independence for the Basque and Galicia to Portrugal. Fuck the Castilian dogs. They should be greatful they are allowed to have Leon.
#14844784
It's funny that Britain gets so much criticism over "forcing" Scotland to stay in the UK by... legally sanctioning a simple-majority referendum that the nationalists lost. In contrast, that Spain doesn't seem to attract much dislike for actually forcing Catalonia to stay part of their country with stuff like this. :lol:
#14847646
Finally its referendum day in Catalonia. lol

The ballot papers contain just one question: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?" There are two boxes: Yes or No.

The Spanish government has pledged to stop a vote on independence.
Todays referendum is taking place.
Has the Spanish government shot itself in the foot?






The interior ministry says police officers began seizing ballot papers and boxes as the polls opened.
Riot police blocked potential voters from entering a polling station in the regional capital Barcelona.
How is the day unfolding?
Thousands of separatist supporters occupied schools and other buildings that have been designated as voting centres ahead of the polls opening.
Many of those inside are parents and their children, who remained in the buildings after the end of lessons on Friday and bedded down in sleeping bags on gym mats.
In some areas, farmers positioned tractors on roads and in front of polling station doors, and school gates were taken away to make it harder for the authorities to seal buildings off.
Police insisted polling stations would not be allowed to open, and that those inside would be evicted.
In the early hours of Sunday morning, dozens of national police vehicles left their base in the port of Barcelona as officers were deployed.
Referendum organisers have called for peaceful resistance to any police action.
Catalan government officials have predicted a big turnout.
The ballot papers contain just one question: "Do you want Catalonia to become an independent state in the form of a republic?" There are two boxes: Yes or No.
Ahead of the polls opening, the Catalan government said voters could use any polling station if their designated voting place was shut.
Sunday would be an "important date for democracy", regional Vice-President Oriol Junqueras told TV3, the main Catalan public channel.
Will the vote be credible?
The referendum has been declared illegal by Spain's constitutional court, and thousands of extra police officers have been sent to the region.
The Madrid government has put policing in Catalonia under central control and ordered the regional force, the Mossos d'Esquadra, to help enforce the ban.
In a show of force ahead of the poll, Spanish authorities have seized voting materials, imposed fines on top Catalan officials and temporarily detained dozens of politicians.
Police have also occupied the regional government's telecommunications centre.
The head of the Catalan police has urged officers to avoid using force.
Why is a vote being held?
Catalonia, a wealthy region of 7.5 million people in north-eastern Spain, has its own language and culture.
It also has a high degree of autonomy, but is not recognised as a separate nation under the Spanish constitution.
Pressure for a vote on self-determination has grown over the past five years.
But Spanish unionists argue Catalonia already enjoys broad autonomy within Spain, along with other regions like the Basque Country and Galicia.
Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy says the vote goes against the constitution, which refers to "the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, the common and indivisible homeland of all Spaniards".
Central government spokesman Iñigo Mendez de Vigo accused the Catalan government of being inflexible and one-sided, but it is a charge that Catalan nationalists throw back at Madrid itself.
Demonstrations by independence campaigners have been largely peaceful.
"I don't believe there will be anyone who will use violence or who will want to provoke violence that will tarnish the irreproachable image of the Catalan independence movement as pacifist," Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont said.
On the eve of the vote, thousands of demonstrators calling for Spanish unity held rallies in cities across Spain, including in the Catalan capital Barcelona.
They waved Spanish flags and carried banners reading "Catalonia is Spain".


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41457238
#14847661
It's a shame that this thread is garnering less attention than the ravings about whether kneeling during the US nation anthem is appropriate and the usual anti-Muslim frothing. It's an interesting and important situation, with a lot of complex politics behind the scenes. But that's POFO, I guess.

In answer to your question, anarchist, yes, the Spanish government has definitely shot itself in the foot. The heavy-handed reaction to a referendum divisive even among Catalans will not help matters: it may even radicalise moderates who would have otherwise voted remain. I post this article from the New Statesman for some context.

Like Brexit, the Catalan independence vote isn't quite as democratic as it seems


The regional government isn't blameless for the chaos ahead of Sunday's referendum.


If politics is about winning hearts and minds, the government of Spain has conclusively lost an important battle against Catalan independence.

The regional government based in Barcelona has called a referendum on Sunday which will ask Catalonians whether they want to live in a republic separate from the rest of Spain. A yes vote will lead to immediate declaration of secession.

The heavy handed response of the government in Madrid has produced the most appalling scenes in Catalonia. Heavy-booted paramilitary civil guard forces have been dispatched to the region in an effort to stop the vote. More than a dozen of the political operatives organising the poll have been arrested (with more detentions threatened), hundreds of ballot boxes seized and millions of voting papers impounded even as they roll off the printing press.

In a country where most people over 50 were born under the regime of a fascist dictator, General Franco, the images are spine-chilling. These pictures, and the Catalan government’s cry of "foul", have echoed around Europe successfully drowning out a far more complex debate.

But progressives should not be misled. The radical nationalist and separatist administration in Barcelona is far from blameless: it too should take responsibility for the political chaos about to hit the region. The nationalists try to frame the argument as one between a united Catalan society yearning to be free and an oppressive Spanish government. Like the Brexiteers who blame Brussels for British woes, the Catalan separatists damn Madrid for the region’s problems.

But it isn’t that simple. “Catexit”, like Brexit in the UK, is an incendiary issue which divides families, friends and communities in the region. For their own reasons, both the Catalan and Spanish governments have generated confrontation to distract from deep-rooted problems such as endemic corruption and unemployment. Both sides seem determined on pursuing a conflict which will do immense damage and was wholly avoidable.

The proposal to hold a referendum on independence was sprung on the Catalan parliament with virtually no notice at the begining of September. Fresh from their summer break opposition parties were kept in the dark and caught unawares. No amendments to the proposal were allowed in a debate which lasted less than half a day.

Not surprisingly, the non-nationalist parties refused to take part in the legislative farce and walked out before the vote so the new Republic, if it happens, will have been born in a half empty chamber with only MPs from the governing parties in their seats. More importantly, the missing MPs from the oppostion parties actually represent more than half the voters in the region.

Like Theresa May in Britain, the Catalan president Carles Puidgemont governs with a slender majority based on a on a minority of the popular vote. Like the process of "taking back control" in Britain, the process of "taking back control" in Catalonia will be completed only by bypassing the normal rules of parliamentary scrutiny.

For all the talk about democracy, the paving legislation for this referendum has been rammed through a parliament using votes won under a less than proportional electoral system. The leader of the Catalan socialists, Miguel Iceta, has accused the nationalist administration of violating the "rules of the parliament, the rights of the opposition, the statute of Catalonia and the Spanish constitution", in calling the referendum. That is a hell of a charge list for any government to answer, let alone one which claims to be ushering a new dawn of democratic self-determination.

What will happen on Sunday and in the following days is anyone’s guess. Like Brexit this referendum will have consequences which both are profound and unknowable. The veteran socialist leader Felipe Gonzalez, Spain’s longest serving prime minister in the post-Franco era, says he is now more worried about the country than at any time for the past 40 years. That, at least, is a judgement about the situation with which most Spaniards and Catalans will agree.


https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/e ... c-it-seems
#14847663
I'll just repeat what I said in another thread: the next time some whining Cybernat complains about Scotland being "forced" to stay in the UK, I'll point them to this referendum.

I also notice that the EU, which loves to accuse the UK of "not protecting citizens' rights", is now suspiciously silent on this flagrant voter intimidation. :)
#14847673
Catalonia is richer than the rest of Spain and I guess thats part of the reason for the referendum but an independent Catalonia will hurt their economy and especially the famous F.C Barcelona which wont be able to stay in the Spanish league
#14847674
Zionist Nationalist wrote:Catalonia is richer than the rest of Spain and I guess thats part of the reason for the referendum but an independent Catalonia will hurt their economy and especially the famous F.C Barcelona which wont be able to stay in the Spanish league

Duw, that should settle it!
User avatar
By Drlee
#14847677
I am interested in all of these "exit" movements. I wonder what has spurred them on. My suspicion is that people are tired of the concentration of wealth at the top. The notion that they lack opportunity. Couple this with a socially disastrous flow of immigrants throughout the continent and it is no wonder that individuals want to reestablish control of their own uniqueness.

Should Catalonia successfully succeed they would become an economically powerful force as an economy wealthier than South Korea, Israel or Italy. That facilitates what I believe is fear of impending cultural integration and extinction.

Kirillov is right. This is an important issue and one we would all be well to understand.
#14847681
Catalonia is an affluent area within Spain, but its wealth is due to being part of Spain. Heavily reliant with its banking sector and high it debt, a downturn in confidence could be catastrophic for Catalonia. Also its industrial sector relies on the rest of Spain and also exports would be problematic due to being outside the EU. Then there is currency issues. They are part of the Euro. Secession will decrease their wealth and increase citizen living costs. Also tourism is likely to take a hit as EU nationals could take insult of such a move.

Also, another issue of course, is that this is an illegal move. No global nation can admit or allow such a country to exist without support from Madrid. That means no deals - or more importantly no rights within the UN. Catalonia would be completely isolated. This whole move from the Catalonian government is a bad one. Perhaps a better move would be to threat and compromise to receive extra budgetary funds. An outcome executed by Scotland that has given a Scot more spending per individual than enjoyed by anyone else within the UK.
User avatar
By Ter
#14847685
I support Catalonia to realise their dream of independence,
Madrid has exposed itself as a stubborn anti-democratic entity that did not hesitate to use force against peaceful citizens. For Madrid, this is a no-win situation.
The logical next step will be abandoning the strategy of non-violence.
This is bad for Spain, bad for the EU.
#14847687
Ter wrote:I support Catalonia to realise their dream of independence,
Madrid has exposed itself as a stubborn anti-democratic entity that did not hesitate to use force against peaceful citizens. For Madrid, this is a no-win situation.
The logical next step will be abandoning the strategy of non-violence.
This is bad for Spain, bad for the EU.


Catalonia independence is bad for Israel

Catalonia will be a pro BDS and pro Muslim country like Sweden
By Rugoz
#14847691
newstatesman wrote:IFor all the talk about democracy, the paving legislation for this referendum has been rammed through a parliament using votes won under a less than proportional electoral system. The leader of the Catalan socialists, Miguel Iceta, has accused the nationalist administration of violating the "rules of the parliament, the rights of the opposition, the statute of Catalonia and the Spanish constitution", in calling the referendum. That is a hell of a charge list for any government to answer, let alone one which claims to be ushering a new dawn of democratic self-determination.


What a nonsensical argument. They have a majority in parliament.

Either way, since the referendum is illegal and without consequence the result will be meaningless as well.
The way the Spanish government handles the situation is incredibly stupid. It could have asked for 55% approval for the referendum to pass and it likely would have failed, in fact even 50% approval is uncertain.

See e.g. here: http://www.politico.eu/article/cataloni ... rops-poll/
#14847694
B0ycey wrote:Catalonia is an affluent area within Spain, but its wealth is due to being part of Spain. Heavily reliant with its banking sector and high it debt, a downturn in confidence could be catastrophic for Catalonia. Also its industrial sector relies on the rest of Spain and also exports would be problematic due to being outside the EU. Then there is currency issues. They are part of the Euro. Secession will decrease their wealth and increase citizen living costs. Also tourism is likely to take a hit as EU nationals could take insult of such a move.

Also, another issue of course, is that this is an illegal move. No global nation can admit or allow such a country to exist without support from Madrid. That means no deals - or more importantly no rights within the UN. Catalonia would be completely isolated. This whole move from the Catalonian government is a bad one. Perhaps a better move would be to threat and compromise to receive extra budgetary funds. An outcome executed by Scotland that has given a Scot more spending per individual than enjoyed by anyone else within the UK.


Oh, boy ...all this , you wrote, couldn't be far from both the truth and reality. Basically, you sound like Serbs prior dissolution of Yugoslavia... Outcome: six and a half new administrations on the soil of ex-Yugoslavia.
#14847795
Well Madrid has rejected the result. As I expected. Independence won't happen unless another major European state, like neighbour France, etc, supports it.
Last edited by redcarpet on 02 Oct 2017 12:48, edited 1 time in total.
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