Catalonia crisis: Spain moves to suspend autonomy - Page 11 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14858818
Rugoz wrote:I wonder what Madrid will do if nationalist parties win the election again and vote for independence. :excited:

I think the pro-unity parties are the real nationalists, while the pro-independence side are pro-EU secessionist regionalists who want their own nation-state.
#14858898
Rugoz wrote:Beren thinks therefore he is.

Once I had "Cogito ergo sum" under a picture of Descartes with another quote of his in my sig. However, if I hadn't been so humble to start my post with "I think", would you have anything to say?
#14858971
Beren wrote:I think the pro-unity parties are the real nationalists, while the pro-independence side are pro-EU secessionist regionalists who want their own nation-state.



I think that is the case. Those who support the Westphalian nation state concept are the real nationalists while the separatists are into the whole pan European imperial project. So they should be identified as imperialists.


Rugoz wrote:
Beren thinks therefore he is.


Wouldn’t it be more accurate to say “I observe therefore I determine. I determine therefore I am”?
#14859007
The latest news:
Eight politicians who showed up for the first court hearing were arrested and placed in custody.
The Spanish prosecutors have issued European arrest warrants for the Catalonian President and four other politicians, all of them now in Belgium.
Some Belgian politicians have called the Spanish moves undiplomatic, "ressembling other times".
The Catalonians can still request political asylum in Belgium, otherwise they have to be extradited to Spain.
#14859047
Rugoz wrote:Are you hungry, Beren?

So is that all you have to say without rephrasing Descartes? My humbleness paid off then I think.

foxdemon wrote:I think that is the case.

foxdemon thinks therefore he is. Best quality response from Switzerland! :excited:
#14859051
Beren wrote:I think the pro-unity parties are the real nationalists, while the pro-independence side are pro-EU secessionist regionalists who want their own nation-state.


That's the confusing thing about nationalists and EU-haters. The Catalans have to be nationalists because they want their own state, but the opposing pro-unity camp is also nationalist because it wants to preserve Spanish national unity. The EU haters bash the EU because the Commission doesn't support Catalan independence, but if the Commission were to interfere in domestic Spanish affairs they would start foaming at the mouth.
#14859053
Atlantis wrote:That's the confusing thing about nationalists and EU-haters. The Catalans have to be nationalists because they want their own state, but the opposing pro-unity camp is also nationalist because it wants to preserve Spanish national unity. The EU haters bash the EU because the Commission doesn't support Catalan independence, but if the Commission were to interfere in domestic Spanish affairs they would start foaming at the mouth.

Sure, the EU would be bad anyways.

There is great confusion about nationalism and best quality poster from Switzerland Rugoz just demonstrated it brilliantly.
#14859057
Beren wrote:So is that all you have to say without rephrasing Descartes? My humbleness paid off then I think.


foxdemon thinks therefore he is. Best quality response from Switzerland! :excited:


This is the quantum age. The observer determines reality. Therefore, if nobody reads our posts, do we exist?



Atlantis wrote:That's the confusing thing about nationalists and EU-haters. The Catalans have to be nationalists because they want their own state, but the opposing pro-unity camp is also nationalist because it wants to preserve Spanish national unity. The EU haters bash the EU because the Commission doesn't support Catalan independence, but if the Commission were to interfere in domestic Spanish affairs they would start foaming at the mouth.


The Catalan rebels want their own state but only as a province in the greater pan European Empire. So they are pro EU Imperialist.

As to the dilemma of who to support, that isn’t an easy choice for Brussels. The European Empire is built around a Franco-German axis. But they can’t ignore the sovereignty of other major states such as Spain. Well, not without fragmenting their Empire anyway.

The EU was always going to be a difficult project. Much of what is going wrong was predictable. If the EU-lovers are guilty of something, then it is irresponsible optimism. A more level headed and down to earth approach would have been able to avoid like Brexit and Catalan independence attempts.

Since the movers in the EU remain irresponsibly optimistic and supremely arrogant, there will be more trouble ahead.
#14859060
That's the confusing thing about nationalists and EU-haters. The Catalans have to be nationalists because they want their own state, but the opposing pro-unity camp is also nationalist because it wants to preserve Spanish national unity. The EU haters bash the EU because the Commission doesn't support Catalan independence, but if the Commission were to interfere in domestic Spanish affairs they would start foaming at the mouth.

Indeed. The only way these matters can truly be settled is the old-fashioned way - with barricades, rifles and molotov cocktails. After all, without the Thirty Years War there would never have been a Treaty of Westphalia. If the Catalans want to secede from Spain, then they must have a revolution. And if they want a revolution, then they must be prepared to fight for it. Otherwise, they are just seditious criminals and should be brought before the appropriate judicial authorities and put on trial for their crimes. As a great man once said, power grows from the barrel of a gun. A revolution without a revolution is just LARPing.

The Catalan rebels want their own state but only as a province in the greater pan European Empire. So they are pro EU Imperialist.

Indeed. They are like a petty German dukedom refusing to join Bismarck's unified German nation-state in the 1860s because they wanted to remain part of the Holy Roman Empire. :roll:

Since the movers in the EU remain irresponsibly optimistic and supremely arrogant, there will be more trouble ahead.

Agreed. I think we are witnessing the EU project slowly, slowly unravelling. Its internal contradictions are just too great, and it seems incapable of creating anything which could realistically replace the Westphalian nation-state, whose sovereignty its very existence is undermining.
#14859063
Potemkin wrote:Agreed. I think we are witnessing the EU project slowly, slowly unravelling. Its internal contradictions are just too great, and it seems incapable of creating anything which could realistically replace the Westphalian nation-state, whose sovereignty its very existence is undermining.

Sure, that's why the UK is struggling with leaving so much. ;)
#14859068
Sure, that's why the UK is struggling with leaving so much. ;)

The EU may be unravelling, Beren, but it will not go gentle into that good night. After all, it's the only model that exists for achieving a supra-national post-Westphalian order in Europe. If it collapses, what will replace it? Probably nothing. All those decades of work by the Eurocrats, wasted. This is why the EU elite have been so careful not to interfere, or even be seen to be interfering, in the internal constitutional affairs of its member nation-states. If Scotland achieves independence from the UK, it will automatically be expelled from the EU. Likewise for Catalonia. To have adopted any other position would have been tantamount to a declaration of war against the UK or Spain. But this position also has the effect of making the EU seem powerless and ineffectual. It's an empire, but it's a weak empire. From its very founding, it's been like the Holy Roman Empire in its final years, or the Ottoman Empire in its decline. Its very existence dangerously undermines the sovereignty of the European nation-states, yet it cannot assert its own imperial sovereignty to replace it.
#14859072
Potemkin wrote:The EU may be unravelling, Beren, but it will not go gentle into that good night. After all, it's the only model that exists for achieving a supra-national post-Westphalian order in Europe. If it collapses, what will replace it? Probably nothing. All those decades of work by the Eurocrats, wasted. This is why the EU elite have been so careful not to interfere, or even be seen to be interfering, in the internal constitutional affairs of its member nation-states. If Scotland achieves independence from the UK, it will automatically be expelled from the EU. Likewise for Catalonia. To have adopted any other position would have been tantamount to a declaration of war against the UK or Spain. But this position also has the effect of making the EU seem powerless and ineffectual. It's an empire, but it's a weak empire. From its very founding, it's been like the Holy Roman Empire in its final years, or the Ottoman Empire in its decline. Its very existence dangerously undermines the sovereignty of the European nation-states, yet it cannot assert its own imperial sovereignty to replace it.

The EU is a necessity as well, it's Europe's reaction to globalisation. As it's entering a deeper phase of integration its internal problems and contradictions are surfacing, of course, but it's not falling apart. It's also being under attack from the outside. The last one and a half years have proved the viability of the project, and it's very telling that it's not the EU that's struggling with or due to Brexit, it's those who chose to leave.
#14859077
Beren wrote:The EU is a necessity as well, it's Europe's reaction to globalisation. As it's entering a deeper phase of integration its internal problems and contradictions are surfacing, of course, but it's not falling apart. It's also being under attack from the outside. The last one and a half years have proved the viability of the project, and it's very telling that it's not the EU that's struggling with or due to Brexit, it's those who chose to leave.



The whole point of the exercise is indeed to respond to a world in which Europe is no longer the centre of power. That has been the case for over 100 years, since Russia and America became more powerful than the individual big nations of Europe. And now India and China are returning to their historical place as the workd’s Biggest economies.

But that imperative for Europe to present a united face to the world doesn’t mean the project is guaranteed to succeed. What you have at present is a Franco-German core which everything else hangs off. Both of those nations have shown they are happy to assert their own interests over the rest of Europe. So if the EU is going to succeed in the end, I think there are a number of people in both Paris and Berlin who need to acquire a taste for humble pie.
#14859093
Beren wrote:The last one and a half years have proved the viability of the project, and it's very telling that it's not the EU that's struggling with or due to Brexit, it's those who chose to leave.


Do you ever look at the data or do you pull that stuff straight out of your a**?
#14859098
foxdemon wrote:The Catalan rebels want their own state but only as a province in the greater pan European Empire. So they are pro EU Imperialist.

The trouble with the EU haters is that they can never make up their mind. One day the EU is about to collapse of its own accord and the next it's a threatening empire. You can't have it both ways.

We have to fight the empires that are and not the empires you think might appear in some distant future. The empire that is is the Anglo empire. Period. The chances that 30 odd countries, each jealous of its sovereignty, should form an empire with a single decision making center are less than the chances of a snowball in hell, even if in a far distant future we were to arrive at a full federation

The EU was always going to be a difficult project.

Nobody said that it would be easy for so many countries to peacefully cooperate, but with the Brits out off the way, most expect the sailing to be a lot easier, because, unlike the arrogant British, we have learned to live together.

foxdemon wrote:What you have at present is a Franco-German core which everything else hangs off. Both of those nations have shown they are happy to assert their own interests over the rest of Europe. So if the EU is going to succeed in the end, I think there are a number of people in both Paris and Berlin who need to acquire a taste for humble pie.

The British have played at their "divide and rule game" for so long, that it's no longer having any effect. You ought to think of another strategy to sow trouble. The Anglophone Media is still trying to divide the EU by trying to incite resentment in one country against another country, with Germany being the easiest target. However, many in Europe are urging Germany and France to take a stronger role in the EU because without them, nothing will move. But that is of course exactly what you want to achieve. Compared to the Brits, who were trouble from the start, the Germans have been good team-players, without which the EU would not exist.

But since you rely on the Anglophone media for information, I guess your misconceptions about Europe are only natural.

The UK with its nuclear force, seat in the security council and global trade network, can still pretend at being a global player. But for most small and medium-sized countries, who have none of these assets, the EU is even more important than it is for big countries like Germany or France. And despite all your efforts at sowing trouble, people on the continent who have not been brainwashed by the Anglophone media understand this perfectly well. Your efforts will be in vain.

Potemkin wrote:This is why the EU elite have been so careful not to interfere, or even be seen to be interfering, in the internal constitutional affairs of its member nation-states.

The Commission represents the nation states in the EU. To expect the Commission to promote the dismemberment of the nation state is like expecting the unions to fight against the worker on behalf of the employers.

That doesn't mean the EU is against independence movements. In fact, the principle of subsidiarity is widely accepted in the EU. In other words, decisions should be made a lower level: commune, region, state, whenever possible. This makes it possible to shift power from the national to the regional level. And since EU members no longer have to engage in national competition to beat the neighboring state, the size and power of nation states becomes less important. People can live just as happily and safely in small EU members as in big ones. It's just that the Commission is the wrong organ to promote regional independence. If the independence movements were serious, they would lobby the EP, or the EU Committee of the Regions to give flesh to a "Europe of the Regions."

Anyways, there can be no doubt that Catalonia and Scotland would be entitled to EU membership, just like every other European democratic state that fulfills membership criteria. But they have to become independent states first.
#14859106
Beren wrote:The last one and a half years have proved the viability of the project, and it's very telling that it's not the EU that's struggling with or due to Brexit, it's those who chose to leave.

Rugoz wrote:Do you ever look at the data or do you pull that stuff straight out of your a**?

Data:
Eurozone has grown by 2.5% over the last year
UK has only grown by 1.5% in the same time

https://www.theguardian.com/business/li ... -inflation
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