Catalonia crisis: Spain moves to suspend autonomy - Page 12 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14859164
I did not mean economic struggling in the first place, the political struggling is much worse. The economy could do better too, but it's the general confusion that is really remarkable. It's like they are being kicked out and not leaving.
#14859179
I mean they look like being kicked out rather than leaving because they want to. :lol:

That's because the vast majority of the British elite don't want to leave the EU. They regard Brexit as a political disaster for the country and for themselves personally. It was the lower classes, in particular the older members of the lower classes, who voted for Brexit. Basically, the great unwashed of British society kicked the ruling elite in the balls and then walked away. :lol:
#14859181
Potemkin wrote:That's because the vast majority of the British elite don't want to leave the EU. They regard Brexit as a political disaster for the country and for themselves personally. It was the lower classes, in particular the older members of the lower classes, who voted for Brexit. Basically, the great unwashed of British society kicked the ruling elite in the balls and then walked away. :lol:

I think the people are confused too and their confusion is growing as they become more and more informed, while the political elite seems to be in total chaos.
#14859185
I think the people are confused too and their confusion is growing as they become more and more informed, while the political elite seems to be in total chaos.

The British political elite are in total chaos. The people aren't so much increasingly confused by Brexit as increasingly disappointed. They're beginning to realise that they probably aren't going to get from Brexit what they wanted to get from it. Still, it stuck a firework up the arse of the ruling elite, so it's not been a total loss. :)
#14859214
Atlantis wrote:The trouble with the EU haters is that they can never make up their mind. One day the EU is about to collapse of its own accord and the next it's a threatening empire. You can't have it both ways.



When did I say the EU was threatening? I do claim it is a Franco-German imperial model and that it is weak and unstable.


We have to fight the empires that are and not the empires you think might appear in some distant future. The empire that is is the Anglo empire. Period. The chances that 30 odd countries, each jealous of its sovereignty, should form an empire with a single decision making center are less than the chances of a snowball in hell, even if in a far distant future we were to arrive at a full federation


You should have stuck to the EEC core and formed a federation rather than expanded rapidly in an imperial manner. Pity the Anglos are out as Anglo societies have a demonstrated track record of success with federations whereas your governments do not.


As to your idea of an imaginary Anglo Empire, could you please elaborate?


Nobody said that it would be easy for so many countries to peacefully cooperate, but with the Brits out off the way, most expect the sailing to be a lot easier, because, unlike the arrogant British, we have learned to live together.


I am sure the imperialists in Paris and Berlin would think that way. One less obstacle to their quest for hegemony.


The British have played at their "divide and rule game" for so long, that it's no longer having any effect. You ought to think of another strategy to sow trouble. The Anglophone Media is still trying to divide the EU by trying to incite resentment in one country against another country, with Germany being the easiest target. However, many in Europe are urging Germany and France to take a stronger role in the EU because without them, nothing will move. But that is of course exactly what you want to achieve. Compared to the Brits, who were trouble from the start, the Germans have been good team-players, without which the EU would not exist.


Germans? Good team players? Explain that to the Greeks.


But since you rely on the Anglophone media for information, I guess your misconceptions about Europe are only natural.


That is an assertion. You don’t know that.

The UK with its nuclear force, seat in the security council and global trade network, can still pretend at being a global player. But for most small and medium-sized countries, who have none of these assets, the EU is even more important than it is for big countries like Germany or France. And despite all your efforts at sowing trouble, people on the continent who have not been brainwashed by the Anglophone media understand this perfectly well. Your efforts will be in vain.


Why do you refer only to the UK? It isn’t the only Anglo-Saxon nation around. As to our latest diabolical plan to take over the world, you will have to wait and see what is in store for you.
#14859215
Potemkin wrote:The British political elite are in total chaos. The people aren't so much increasingly confused by Brexit as increasingly disappointed. They're beginning to realise that they probably aren't going to get from Brexit what they wanted to get from it. Still, it stuck a firework up the arse of the ruling elite, so it's not been a total loss. :)


Listen to the calling of your heart, and the soft, velvety, honey glaze of @mikema63's words. Become a US territory, and you'll be on the fast track to statehood some day! ;)
#14859462
foxdemon wrote:You should have stuck to the EEC core and formed a federation rather than expanded rapidly in an imperial manner. Pity the Anglos are out as Anglo societies have a demonstrated track record of success with federations whereas your governments do not.

The irony of this ...

The British were the primary drivers for expanding the EU. Even before joining the common market, the British tried every trick in the book to stop European integration. When that didn't work, they joined to sabotage from the inside. The idea was that enlargement of the EU would make deepening European integration impossible. It was also to paralyze EU decision making. The Germans wanted to streamline the decision-making process (less use of the veto) and the constitution as a condition for enlargements. In public, it was the French who aborted the constitutions, but in reality it was the British who announced they were going to have a referendum the day after Poland and Spain dropped their opposition to the constitution. That doomed the constitution because everybody knew how that would go. At that time it was too late to stop the enlargements.

The British deliberately tried to paralyze the EU to then accuse the EU of being non-functional, just like they opposed democratization of the EU to then accuse the EU of being non-democratic. The duplicity of it ... you couldn't invent it.

PS: The EU is the most advanced form of pan-national organisation and the single market is by far the most advanced form of trade relation. I don't think the Anglos did anything of the kind.
#14861644
Catalan News wrote:
Teachers charged with hate speech remain under investigation

Court in northern Catalan town maintains case against schools accused of promoting hatred during classroom debate on October 1 referendum

Image
Eight teachers testify in court on Tuesday

07 November 2017 07:08 PM byACN | Barcelona

A judge in the northern Catalan town of La Seu d’Urgell has ruled that teachers from three local schools are to remain under investigation for allegedly promoting hate speech. Eight teachers testified in court on Tuesday, answering charges that they promoted hate speech in classroom debates about the October 1 referendum and the crackdown by Spanish police. All the teachers, which include the heads of the three schools involved, deny the charges.

According to the accusations against the teachers, one of the pupils suffered “humiliation, insults and even aggression,” because their mother is a Guardia Civil officer. On October 1 the Guardia Civil police were heavily involved in attempting to prevent voting taking place, even resorting to violence to seize ballot boxes and close down polling stations. According to the charges, the alleged classroom incidents took place on October 3, just a couple of days after the vote.

Supporting the teachers at the court was the acting director of the Catalan education department’s territorial services in Lleida, Miquel Àngel Cullerés. The acting director denied any debate on October 1 took place, adding that with children between the ages of three and six it is “practically impossible” to do such an activity. Cullerés also expressed his hope that the cases will soon be dismissed so that the schools involved can get back to normal and thus escape the media attention that the case has generated.


Hate speech laws can come in handy for all kinds of useful stuff.
#14862215
YAHOO News wrote:Spain warns EU about cyber-meddling suspicions in Catalonia

LORNE COOK, Associated Press • November 13, 2017

ImageSpanish Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis Quecedo, center, speaks with a member of his delegation during a meeting of EU foreign and defense ministers at the Europa building in Brussels, Monday, Nov. 13, 2017. The European Union is banning arms sales to Venezuela and setting up a system for asset freezes and travel restrictions on some Venezuelan officials to ramp up pressure on President Nicolas Maduro. (AP Photo/Virginia Mayo)

BRUSSELS (AP) — Spain on Monday warned its European Union partners about a disinformation campaign aimed at destabilizing its volatile northeast region of Catalonia, which Madrid claims appears to be coming from Russia.

Spanish Defense Minister Maria Dolores de Cospedal told reporters that "many of the actions come from Russian territory," but that it's not yet possible to determine what their exact source is or if the Russian government is involved.

She said some of them are "repeated from Venezuelan territory."

The Spanish government took control of Catalonia's powers and called a snap regional election for Dec. 21, after the Catalan government held a banned independence referendum on Oct. 1.

Several regional government ministers have been jailed, and the region's ousted leader, Carles Puigdemont, is in Brussels with four associates fighting extradition to Spain for trial. They could face up to 30 years in prison on charges of rebellion, sedition and extortion.

De Cospedal declined to guess what impact the disinformation might be having on the election campaign or how big the fake news campaign might be.

She said the number "is changing every day. The figure cannot be specified."

Earlier, referring to a recent London meeting between WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange and a prominent Catalan pro-independence figure, Spanish Foreign Minister Alfonso Dastis said there were signs that Assange and others "are trying to interfere and manipulate" amid the Catalonia crisis.

Spain said last week that the signs don't necessarily mean the Russian government is involved, and it hasn't made public any evidence to back the interference claim.

The EU's strategic communications unit — the East StratCom Task Force — has recently reported several instances of disinformation coming from Russian news outlets linked to the Kremlin.

An analysis last month on the Russian talk show Vesti Nedeli said that the view from some Russian television stations is that Europe is "falling apart" and that Spain is being compared to Ukraine, whose Crimean Peninsula was annexed by Russian troops in 2014.

___

Ciaran Giles in Madrid contributed to this report.

As we experience it on PoFo as well, hacking must be a national pastime in Russia indeed, so there would be nothing special in the Russian government just doing the same. I wonder if other members of Team Russia follow suit as Venezuela does.
#14862291
Atlantis wrote:The irony of this ...

The British were the primary drivers for expanding the EU. Even before joining the common market, the British tried every trick in the book to stop European integration. When that didn't work, they joined to sabotage from the inside.


It was Winston Churchill who drove the formation of post war Western block which became the EU. The Americans played their part with the Marshal plan. The Anglos established modern Europe.

Quite ironic how some would blame all ills on them.


The idea was that enlargement of the EU would make deepening European integration impossible. It was also to paralyze EU decision making.


No. It was a result of post Cold War hubris. They actual thought they would be making the EU stronger. That wasn’t a plot. Just a bad call.


The Germans wanted to streamline the decision-making process (less use of the veto) and the constitution as a condition for enlargements. In public, it was the French who aborted the constitutions, but in reality it was the British who announced they were going to have a referendum the day after Poland and Spain dropped their opposition to the constitution. That doomed the constitution because everybody knew how that would go. At that time it was too late to stop the enlargements.


So you admit the French want an imperial model for the EU.

The British deliberately tried to paralyze the EU to then accuse the EU of being non-functional, just like they opposed democratization of the EU to then accuse the EU of being non-democratic. The duplicity of it ... you couldn't invent it.


You don’t understand democracy. An autocratic Prussian would see British politics that way, I suppose.

PS: The EU is the most advanced form of pan-national organisation and the single market is by far the most advanced form of trade relation. I don't think the Anglos did anything of the kind.


Really? Please explain to the Greeks how advanced your trade relation system is.
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