[ness31]

The fact that there are lots of people who follow conservative Islam in Iran and wear things they believe are religiously required does not mean its mandates by law.
The black cape is not required by law anywhere, yet many wear it specially in conservative provinces.
Hijab is not required to be worn in all provinces, yet you'll find women who wear it in provinces where its not obliged to be worn.

The argument isn't whether people wear such things or not, the argument you and politik are making is that its the law to wear it.
And in that you're wrong, its not the law to wear such things outside religious places and the modesty code as said exists in some places but not in others.
Infact, you don't need to go into the legal code of every province to know that, you can easily follow the arguments happening in the parliament where the clerics routinely try to enforce these laws on everyone by including it in the constitution and always keep failing to do that.
The enforcement of Islamic laws specially on public behavior, clothes and drugs is literally over half of what the parliament keep discussing because the clerics keep trying to get what they want.

Tut tut. I’ve said nothing about law. You are reinforcing exactly what I am saying. What the majority of ones peers do is far more effective than any law.

Not really no, as said while some places are more conservative than others in these regards, you can see women wearing all types of things (as in not all wear the black cape). You can easily find pictures on this.

Pictures you say? On google? I should totally try that.

I doubt you'll find lots of men wearing shorts anywhere in the middle east. This again doesn't mean its a law not to wear shorts.
So you're argument that its a law is again wrong.

Again, who said anything about law? I’m talking custom. Much stronger than law. Again reinforcing my point.

Technically speaking, Islam doesn't really include the head wear rule. Its more of a tradition thing that the Imams in old times codified into rules because the head scarf was a symbol of modesty and class for women and so they thought Islam wants modesty and this modesty. Not literally like this but metaphorically speaking, there was lots of debates on the topic between major Imams before it became codified in reality.

Right, so the people in charge of explaining and disseminating your religion and it’s traditions aren’t technically an authority or what?

It can be debated till the cows come home and not much will change because it comes from the actual people. That is what is so remarkable.

When you're arguing about something in the legal code or about the constitutional structure in a certain government, there isn't really multiple right answers because the system is already codified.
Iran is a federal system with an expanded role for local governments, the role of provincial governments is so large that their elections get more coverage than the presidential elections.
And yet every single time, westerners just ignore this and consider them irrelevant.
Which pretty much distorts the entire argument, and this is why there is a clear lack of understanding of Iranian politics and the inner workings of Iran.

Are you done?! So now you’ve just told me to do research in a more long winded manner. You are more Lebanese than you are Persian, that’s for sure.

[anasawad]

The argument started about laws. I've never denied the traditions do play a key role in how society behaves. Traditions how ever are not laws.

[ness31]

The argument started about laws. I've never denied the traditions do play a key role in how society behaves. Traditions how ever are not laws.

fibber.

Now, why don’t you do something useful and start a thread about delicious Lebanese and Persian food. I could use some tips on how to make a good baklava

[anasawad]

@ness31
The first post starting the discussion was when you said Saudi men and Iranian women have a dress code.
A dress code is a legal code as it would be part of the rules that must be followed.

Traditions or social norms are not the same thing as the law and are not mandated to be followed. And so a traditional dress that many people wear is not called a dress code.

And yes, you can search women's fashion trends in Iran if you want to see what a large portion of women currently wear in Iran. Its not black capes.
Taking what the most conservative segment of Iranian women wear as a rule that all women wear it is not productive to say the least.

[ness31]

*yawn* night Anasawad. Sweet algorithmic dreams

[skinster]

I love when Westerners pretend they care about womens rights in Middle Eastern countries they're okay with bombing.

Back on topic:

Nasrallah says Saudi Arabia asked Israel to attack Lebanon, offered Israel tens of Billions

Leaked Secret Israeli Cable Confirms Israeli-Saudi Coordination To Provoke War

Video: Saudi War on Lebanon backfires

[Rugoz]

Traditions or social norms are not the same thing as the law and are not mandated to be followed. And so a traditional dress that many people wear is not called a dress code.

Jesus f***ing Christ anasawad, every child knows there's morality police in Teheran enforcing the dress code.

[Politiks]

I love when Westerners pretend they care about womens rights in Middle Eastern countries they're okay with bombing.

Back on topic:

Nasrallah says Saudi Arabia asked Israel to attack Lebanon, offered Israel tens of Billions

Leaked Secret Israeli Cable Confirms Israeli-Saudi Coordination To Provoke War

Video: Saudi War on Lebanon backfires

The arrogance shows. Are you resuming the Western World to France, USA and UK? Since when most Western countries go bomb the Middle East?

English and Americans care only about themselves and never cared about who or what they had to destroy or steal to improve their economy but the Western World isn't resumed to US and UK. Germany, Italy, Portugal, Spain, Netherlands, Greece, Sweden, Norway, Finland, Ireland, Poland, Switzerland, Canada had done nothing to the Middle East and yet they need to receive those Muslims America and UK turn into refugees by bombing those shit holes to oblivion.

[anasawad]

@Rugoz
Tehran applies a modesty code, not a dress code.
And There are 30 other provinces excluding Tehran.

Tehran, Mashhad, Qom, And to some extent Yazd remain pretty much strongholds for the conservatives in Iran and You'll routinely see the police applying modesty code to a large degree in those places.
North east is the most lax place followed to a lesser degree the south east provinces.
The center line is almost entirely filled with conservatives, some moderates sure, but moderate clerics are still clerics.
Azzari provinces however are also starting to embrace more socialist and liberal parties recently. So they'll most likely drop the modesty laws in the upcoming years too.

[Zagadka]

Are you suggesting that the people bitching about women's rights are the same people cheering bombing countries? Do you know how things work?

[Politiks]

@ness31
The fact that there are lots of people who follow conservative Islam in Iran and wear things they believe are religiously required does not mean its mandates by law.
The black cape is not required by law anywhere, yet many wear it specially in conservative provinces.
Hijab is not required to be worn in all provinces, yet you'll find women who wear it in provinces where its not obliged to be worn.

The argument isn't whether people wear such things or not, the argument you and politik are making is that its the law to wear it.
And in that you're wrong, its not the law to wear such things outside religious places and the modesty code as said exists in some places but not in others.
Infact, you don't need to go into the legal code of every province to know that, you can easily follow the arguments happening in the parliament where the clerics routinely try to enforce these laws on everyone by including it in the constitution and always keep failing to do that.
The enforcement of Islamic laws specially on public behavior, clothes and drugs is literally over half of what the parliament keep discussing because the clerics keep trying to get what they want.


Not really no, as said while some places are more conservative than others in these regards, you can see women wearing all types of things (as in not all wear the black cape). You can easily find pictures on this.


I doubt you'll find lots of men wearing shorts anywhere in the middle east. This again doesn't mean its a law not to wear shorts.
So you're argument that its a law is again wrong.


Technically speaking, Islam doesn't really include the head wear rule. Its more of a tradition thing that the Imams in old times codified into rules because the head scarf was a symbol of modesty and class for women and so they thought Islam wants modesty and this modesty. Not literally like this but metaphorically speaking, there was lots of debates on the topic between major Imams before it became codified in reality.



When you're arguing about something in the legal code or about the constitutional structure in a certain government, there isn't really multiple right answers because the system is already codified.
Iran is a federal system with an expanded role for local governments, the role of provincial governments is so large that their elections get more coverage than the presidential elections.
And yet every single time, westerners just ignore this and consider them irrelevant.
Which pretty much distorts the entire argument, and this is why there is a clear lack of understanding of Iranian politics and the inner workings of Iran.


I'm a Lebanese Iranian actually. And if you want to verify, we can meet up.

You ain't Lebanese by any means. You might be a Palestinian second generation after Hezbollah invaded Lebanon but don't call yourself a lebanese . While we are at it, i also doubt you're Iranian. I think you're really a refugee somewhere with a agenda here to paint Islam with rainbow colors.

You lie endlessly, about Iran, lebanon, invent dress codes when they are really mandatory sharia outfits. Giver me a break.

My grandfather is Lebanese. Phoenician, Catholic, doctor who became a refugee after those pigs invaded Lebanon, destroyed Beirut and took over Lebanon's Government. There's more real Lebanese in South America than in Lebanon. Get a life and stop spreading lies as truthful facts.

[anasawad]

I am a Lebanese from Baalbak with my family being mixed between Iranian and Lebanese Ancestry. Try not to go to far with your bullshit.
And no, there aren't more "real Lebanese" in south America than in Lebanon. If they're real Lebanese then they would stand up for their country against the various aggressors coming instead of running away like cowards.
Ofcourse they don't, because we Shias are the ones defending Lebanon.

I so far haven't lied about Iran nor about Lebanon, and everything I say is verifiable.
On the other hand, you keep making countless bullshit claims which are easily disproven and the minute you're proven wrong, you start calling whoever is infront of you a liar and spreading propaganda, which is ironic since you're the one with one issue in mind that you never talk about anything else here.

[Oxymandias]

@anasawad

However we both know that the government has a set of rules and regulations determining the actual dimensions (for example how much skin clothing should show) and basic outline of what you should wear (for example, almost all provinces by law are required to have all Iranian women to wear at least a scarf over their heads however whether or not this is enforced depends on province as you said). Furthermore there is a sort of traditional bias that the morality police has where they use standard traditional clothing as the ideal moral clothing with everything else beneath such an ideal. This is why the morality police are so hard to deal with in Yazd or Mashdad.

[anasawad]

@Oxymandias
Sure, The clerics do try to enforce these rules over everyone.
That does not however mean they do. And under the constitution, Independent peace courts along side the first and second class criminal courts, which all their members are appointed by capital seats in each province (i.e elected) hold the final say these laws of whether to apply them or not.
You also have supreme courts which there are 4 in each region and 2 in the federal capital (city of Tehran) . Regional governments (also elected, though indirectly) control the region's supreme courts, which those also have the authority under the constitution to amend, establish or revoke any set or individual laws applied in its region in accordance with the regional government recommendations and with a majority vote between the holders of capital seats in the region's provinces.

Those structural policies are governed by articles 156-174 and articles 62-99 (corrected the numbers after rechecking) of the constitution, governing the judicial structure and authority in the nation.
And this is why the legal code differs from region to region and province to province. And this is also why the modesty laws are not applied in most of the north east and south east with the exclusion of religious cities like Mashhad.

In areas where you have hardliners, sure, you will have terrible application of these laws. I already stated that.
But in other places, specially in provinces and cities where the socialist faction of the reformist coalition is in control, those laws were struck down.

You can BTW see which laws are active or inactive in the jurisdiction of each court in the ministry of justice records which has an online version and updates its records and maps once every 6 months.


Another little fact; This is why the Azzari Turks haven't started an armed uprising for independence yet, as well the Balochis in the south, or the Kurds in the west, or the Turkman in the east.
Because this system, which was established in the first and second amendments of the Iranian constitution in 89(major-referendum) and if I remember correctly in 93(minor-parliamentary vote), was made specifically to give a larger level of autonomy for regions and provinces and thus easing down the separatist tensions that was and still is plaguing the country.

Note: This however is on a little weaker standing in Khuzestan province as revolutionary courts are over powering local courts there.

[Politiks]

@Rugoz
Tehran applies a modesty code, not a dress code.
And There are 30 other provinces excluding Tehran.

Tehran, Mashhad, Qom, And to some extent Yazd remain pretty much strongholds for the conservatives in Iran and You'll routinely see the police applying modesty code to a large degree in those places.
North east is the most lax place followed to a lesser degree the south east provinces.
The center line is almost entirely filled with conservatives, some moderates sure, but moderate clerics are still clerics.
Azzari provinces however are also starting to embrace more socialist and liberal parties recently. So they'll most likely drop the modesty laws in the upcoming years too.

Tehran applies a modesty code not a a dress code: = you don't know what dress code means, do you? A modesty code is necessarily a dress code, not all dress codes are modesty codes. Get it? Hard to understand?


Azzari provinces however are also starting to embrace more socialist and liberal parties recently. So they'll most likely drop the modesty laws in the upcoming years too.


Good Lord, you really want to push how modern Sharia Law is don't you? Aspects of Socialism can be applied in any sort of political/economical regime. Just because a few welfare is distributed doesn't mean Iran will ever become a Liberal Socialist nation. I see what you're trying to do here, isn't working.

[anasawad]

@Politiks
Iran is currently in a tipping point in the scale of powers, politically. Between the clerics both moderate and hardliners, and the reformists which includes many socialist and communist parties. Specially now since the reformists have swept 59% of all government seats across the nations in the last series of elections.

This is essentially the most important tip in the balance of powers in the middle east right now and will affect pretty much everyone in the region. And Obama's entire foreign policy towards Iran was aimed to establish grounds for allying with the reformists in Iran as they're taking power and relations with them will set the future of US-Iran relations for the next decades to say the least.

Since you're clearly of the Trumpist-crowd type, I'll assume that you don't know this, nor have you ever bothered reading any type of material about Iran's internal factions, and generally don't know shit about Iran's political stage. And your last posts pretty much proves it.
Now why don't you go play somewhere else and keep focusing on your anti-Islam propaganda, you don't want to keep embarrassing yourself in topics you don't know anything about do you ?

Ooh, And for the dumb section of your post about "Sharia law". We've already discussed this, and last time when you were shown to know nothing about the so called Sharia law nor what the word even means, you simply disappeared and didn't show up for a couple of days after it. I advice not going there again because you still don't know what you're talking about in this topic as well.


And no, I never stated that Iran is liberal. I did state however that there is currently a power struggle inside of it between the clerics and the reformists in which the reformists are varied between those who want more moderate social rules and reformists who want to socially liberalize the country and want to turn the country into a socialist republic. Its basically lots of factions fighting each other and its probably too complicated for you to understand who's who in every aspect of it.
But in summary, yes, there is a fight to liberalize the country with significant progress taking place this year and the one before it, and I happen to be one of the supporters of some of these factions.

[Oxymandias]

@anasawad

I am aware, I already have said what you have said with a much lower word count. I'm not here to fight you anasawad.

[anasawad]

@Oxymandias
I'm not fighting with you. But the point you mentioned is mostly where much of the confusion about this whole issue comes from. So I thought it'd be good to put a short summary (yes, it was a very short summary ) to how things work. It wasn't essentially addressed to you but rather in the overall context of the discussion.

Though I would say I am probably ready to take this discussion to the very end, so I will go into every single article and line in the constitution and every little record about the topic if I have to. I'm not letting this argument go.

[Oxymandias]

@anasawad

That's fine with me. I don't really see it is something that's important at all. Some Westerners might but I honestly don't care about it. Regulations on dress is probably going to be one of the first things to be de-legislated in a Reformist Iran so I don't worry about it. It would be more informative to discuss Reformist politics in Iran and explain what Persian Reformism is.

[anasawad]

@Oxymandias
True, And its indeed not that important of a topic as there are other things being pushed for. But its the topic in-hand and the people involved.

For the reformations being pushed for, we can discuss this, however it's a long topic and its best be its own thread.
In summary:

The main points of reformation are in economics with focus on the increase of privatization in many sectors specially industrial sectors, all while expanding public role and foundations in the agricultural production and the tech sectors. This is meant to both increase self sufficiency in the country, expanding the government income basis both in tax basis and production basis to complete conversion towards a welfare state, and finally establish economic independence by facilitating conversion towards a mixed economy of industrial and service sectors.
This part alone is a very long topic on it self and the methodology being used is rather complicated as its based on a sort of appeasement settlement between various factions.

On the political front, the main goal is decentralization as the push is to expand regional and provincial governments' role in the country in order to first facilitate economic growth and increase economic flexibility. And on the other hand to give more room for the federal government to expand its programs.

On the social front, its not much really as its generally pushing for liberalization, though not too much liberalization so basically no gay pride parades anytime soon.

Other points include environmental regulations which is still a disputed topic.
Water distribution, also a disputed topic.
Weed and Opium, still disputed, however this is being pushed away from the federal government into the local level to solve it.
Policing, which is about general reforms.
And finally the revolutionary guards, which some factions are pushing towards joining it with the army and ending revolutionary courts, however this is probably the most disputed topic to ever be stepped into in the current political stage and this would probably require the reformists to take over the entire government to be able to do anything about.


And in general the very topic has many events behind it, I mean just the recent fight in the parliament shows how the tension is rising currently, so its not exactly going to be easy to establish these reforms as the clerics will be fighting tooth and nail before they give up power. So in general, best be left to a thread of its own.