60,000 nationalists in Poland march to celebrate their country, others join in. - Page 5 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14863377
Rich wrote:Oh goodness me this is going to be fun.


You always act like this, and then have to skulk out of the thread defeated.

Here's a letter From Engels to Marx who totally concurred with his view. "Urning" means homosexual.


19th century dudes could be homophobic in private correspondence. Has that really changed so much that you can be justifiably mock alarmed?

You also quote Lenin to support this view point...

Rich wrote:It was the right wing Liberal Kadet party that pushed liberalisation of homosexuality after the February revolution not Lenin or the Bolsheviks


And yet for some strange reason, you completely omit his conclusion:

Lenin wrote:At that time the preaching was more talented than it is today, and as for the practice, I cannot judge. I don’t mean to preach asceticism by my criticism. Not in the least. Communism will not bring asceticism, but joy of life, power of life, and a satisfied love life will help to do that. But in my opinion the present widespread hypertrophy in sexual matters does not give joy and force to life, but takes it away. In the age of revolution that is bad, very bad.


This, for those of us that know anything about this, goes back well before to the old Connolly/DeLeon debate. The short of it is that DeLeon thought that we should start acting like we were in a socialist society because that's what we want.

Connolly argued that a socialist society would build socialist values, and you can't just pretend that we can immediately switch over without altering material conditions or reality.

And this latter bit is what Lenin was arguing. It's not for him to build a socialist society, he knows what he thinks and wants, but it is for the material world to change things—not his personal feelings.

Obviously one cannot expect a hysterical right-winger to understand that actions can be taken rationally instead of placating his little fee-fees, but that we Marxists value logic.

To claim Fascism was on some kind of crusade against homosexuals is a disgusting Cultural Marxist lie. Heinrich Himmler was most certainly a homicidal homophobe, but before his own hubris and Himmler's scheming brought him down the notorious and open Homosexual Ernst Roehm led a para military organisation of over million men.


A claim you already won't defend by the time I reply.
#14863416
The women in the video is one of the biggest full of shit liars probably in history.
For a start, living in a bomb shelter for 7 years ? Not a single war during the overall civil war lasted 7 years. So bullshit.
The civil war started with the Palestinian PLO trying to take over Lebanon and create its own state.
Who were the fighting forces ?
At the first half, it was Christians, Palestinians, and Druze. Most of the large scale massacres in the first half of the war were done by Christian parties; To be more specific, Al-Kata'b and Al-Quwat. The two major Christian parties who together have directly killed over half the civilian casualties in the war.
Due to those Massacres, at the early 80s, various Muslim factions joined the war simply because they were being massacred in the thousands.
The Christians' position grew weaker and so some allied with the Syrians and invited the Syrian occupation, and others allied with the Israelis and also invited Israeli occupation.
Those occupations also commited multiple massacres which led to the Shia Muslims joining the fight as they went through several massacres against them. This is where Hezbollah was formed and this is why its called a resistance movement BTW.

The war ofcourse wasn't just between religions but within religions. Sameer Geagea, one who she admired before, is a guy who commited several war crimes, the most major ones were the Tal Al-zatar massacre in which his forces killed between 3000 to over 15000 civilians while his troops were being armed by Israel.
The second major one was when he led his forces this time against other Christians where he commited the Ehden massacre, following that with hem killing multiple members of the Lebanese government which was one of the main reasons that it collapsed. And then went even further to fight a war against the remaining Lebanese army and causing heavy casualties that even though he lost, the Lebanese army forces was too weaken to fight the Syrian occupation and in so causing Lebanon as whole to fall under Syrian occupation for nearly 2 decades.

The overwhelming majority of the 150,000+ casualties of the war were Muslims, because those two parties, the leading Christian forces in Lebanon, holding the exact same view as the filth defending and championing them, decided to attempt a full take over of the country by massacring everyone else even including other Christians who disagreed with them.
Both had foreign backers whom they invited to lay occupation over the country.

So when idiots start claiming its Muslims who were in a "holy war" against Christians, the reality is that the war started with a foreign army trying to occupy the country, then followed by Christians waging a holy war against other religious minorities in the country (not just Muslims) to take over power.

There is a reason why the leaders of the two major Christian parties were all charged with war crimes and most of them were sentenced either to life in prison or death penalty after the war ended.
They did most of the killing.


And @Politiks
Just cut the bullshit and shut the fuck up, even the Christians in Lebanon hate the people you support and consider them criminals for their actions. Those your type champions are currently only supported by the sectarian supremacists who want to butcher everyone outside their sect both in and outside of Christianity. And they're almost unanimously hated and despised and considered the most troublesome in Lebanon.
You think that they will stand by your side ?
When Al-Quwat, i.e the Lebanese forces party, fought and killed anyone who isn't a maronite when it was armed. Let me guess, you're not a maronite are you ? Wonder how would that have worked for you if you happen to come across them back then.

Al-kata'b, The Lebanese Phalanges party, happened to be catholic. Since you're in south America I'll assume you're one so you'd be safe from those; Though I wouldn't count much safety for Orthodox Christians, who by the way almost all became refugees in Shia areas and still live with the Shias in Lebanon to this day, mainly because the fanatics in the catholic party didn't think they were true Christians, so they didn't mind killing them if they came in the way.
Thats why Baalbak, an area where it's been overwhelming majority Shia since the 13th century, became to have so many Orthodox Christians in it.

But never mind, those damn Muslims are the problem. Not the sectarian fanatics, ofcourse not.
#14863453
The attack of the Palestinians PLO on Lebanese Christians which started the Lebanese Civil War had religious dimension. An eyewitness gave an account of the massacre of 582 Christians in Damur by the PLO and its Muslim allies on January 22, 1976: "The attack took place from the mountain behind. It was an apocalypse. They were coming, thousands and thousands, shouting 'Allahu Akhbar!" Despite it, Europe and even the Church supported the Palestinians
Last edited by noir on 17 Nov 2017 12:24, edited 5 times in total.
#14863458
Politiks wrote:Muslims fought for the Nazis, help fund the Nazis, openly supported Hitler.

Many more Christians fought for the Nazis, helped fund the Nazis, and openly supported Hitler.

the Muslim Brotherhood thought the idea of putting them in a oven was more proper.

The Wannsee Conference (Christians) decided putting them in a oven was more proper.


:roll:
#14863501
@noir
The civil war started with Ain Al-remaneh incident, a year earlier, the Lebanese Phalanges party militias have gunned down dozens of Palestinians and Sunnis. Which in turn started the civil war.
The PLO had both Sunni Muslims and Christians.
The fighting began after the incident. For the Damour Massacre, it wasn't for religious reasons,It was a retaliation for the Karantina Massacre in which the Lebanese phalangists party militias have killed over 2000 people, in so the Palestinians responded 2 days latter by attacking Al-kataeb, i.e a Lebanese phalange's center in Damour.
In the massacre several dozen militia members and their families were lined up to the wall and gunned down.
Following this incident the violence got much worse, with the exception that at first most Lebanese factions would support Al-Kataeb against the Palestinians, until the Palestinians became no more of a threat and pretty much everyone suddenly found out that their turn is coming.
#14863976
@noir
There were many disputes concerning the Palestinian PLO, not only with Christian Maronites but with pretty much all other groups in Lebanon.
Back then it was still the cold war and groups the Socialist Progressive party and the Communist party and the early Syrian national party which was a pan-Arab party calling for union with Syria, We even had Baathists for some while. All those were supported by eastern powers mainly the soviet union and post 79 Iran joining in with the support. Basically all the leftist groups were supported.
On the other hand you had Maronites-(And note here that it wasn't all Christians but literally just Maronites as other Christians were mostly Left wing)- whom were holding the government as the law makes it that the presidency is always a Maronites (Prime minister- Sunni, Speaker of the Parliament- Shia, Head of Judicial authority-Druze. Etc), and the Maronites were pro-western capitalists , which meant that there were heavy political tensions between Left wing and right wing groups in the country for the decades following the 1958 crisis.

Then comes black September, in which many palestinians along with the PLO leaves Jordan and moves to Lebanon. This led to a major imbalance between the left and right wings, and so, just like in 1958, this imbalance started reflecting on the political stage heavily and tensions began rising between the various groups and in a couple of years (early 70s, pre-civil war) a series of Assassinations, small armed engagements and conflicts, etc all started to happen across the country. And the Palestinians, naturally, joined in the fighting.
In 1975, an agreement was made to make sure all hostilities were stopped between all parties, this agreement reformed the authorities of each position of the government and made it much more interconnected instead of each sect controlling a section of the government with no regard to the rest, it decentralized some of the executive powers of the government, infact even the semi-autonomy of Baalbak is a result of it since on its basis Baalbak will latter on become a semi-autonomous city after a deal with Emile Lahoud. Ofcourse the most major and important outcome of this agreement was that the PLO, under international sponsorship ( the UN was also involved) would get authority over the Palestinian refugee camps.
This as you might imagen really pissed off the nationalists whom saw this as assault on Lebanon's sovereignty (and it was rightfully so), and in mid-year, a shooting happened near a Church in Ain Al-remmaneh (the gunmen, to this very day, were not identified and none of the parties involved in the conflict took responsibility) killing several people including some members of Al-kataeb, i.e members of the Lebanese Phalanges, which ofcourse the Kataeb accused the Palestinians, whom they were already angry at after the agreement, and retaliated with the buss massacre only hours latter.
This would evolve into a small conflict called the War of the hotels which would be represent the beginning of the civil war as the Palestinians at that point became fully under Yaser Arafat's control and thought instead of living side by side with the rest, they want full control, and basically war.
The war of the hotels would last well into 1976 and include both the Karantina and Damour massacres to be considered part of it.


Basically, in summary, the Palestinian PLO though started the civil war, was more of an outside movement that tripped into an already missed up political climate; rather than, as some believes, creating it. (like how the US tripped into the Iraqi sectarian battlefield :p )
And ofcourse the main affect the Palestinians played in the war was giving rise to the ultra-nationalist right wing parties like Al-kataeb (Lebanese Phalanges) , and the Morabitoun (no idea what they call them in English :p ), and the militarized militias of Al-Quwat (Lebanese forces)
With their attempt to take over the country, they revived literally all the tensions and barried disputed since all the way back to the 1800s. I mean seriously, you had leaders going back to mentioning the 1860 conflict between Maronites and Druze and using it as justification, thats how far the PLO have revived of Lebanon's old disputes.

And then you had the third stage of the war the Israeli and Syrian invasions and occupations which further exacerbated the divide as multiple parties as you know started taking the side of one or some times both of the foreign armies in order to defeat an internal enemy being another groups or political party.
And this only ended in 2007 after a new agreement was made between all sides in regards of how the country should be run. Not in 1991, or 1989, nor in 2000 with the Israeli withdrawal or in the 2005 Syrian withdrawal.
#14864218
Beren wrote:How many Jews and Muslims are there in Poland? Too many for full retards I guess.

Yeah, if there is a monogemic country with relatevely no minorities, its Poland.
Such a hatred for non existing people might be explained by cultural hatred.

Ingliz wrote:Many more Christians fought for the Nazis, helped fund the Nazis, and openly supported Hitler.
Of course, not mantioning endless persecutions. The historic Islamic and Arabic persecution against Jews, anti-semetism and assistment to the Nazis from afar, in underestimated though, and not been studied.
#14864289
LehmanB wrote:Yeah, if there is a monogemic country with relatevely no minorities, its Poland.
Such a hatred for non existing people might be explained by cultural hatred.

Foreigners -the unknown, the stranger - will also have a level of distrust for those who do not have security of wealth and position, and that is most people. Polish politicians represent and mirror their constituents in this regard.

Hatred, rather than mere distrust, is generally that of the foreign element that does not attempt to integrate into the national identity. The Lipka Tatars were Tatars (non European whites) and Muslim who became part of the Polish nation by effort - they fought for Poland in her wars, uprisings, and in cultural pursuits. They follow the laws and over time they adopted the Polish language, those Muslims are fine. The Vietnamese in Warsaw are foreign in many ways, but they follow the laws and fly the Polish flag, and have done so for decades, so they are accepted. The MiddleEastern/NorthAfrican/African Muslims are wholly foreign and as a group have proven themselves to be bad guests in Germany, France, UK, Sweden, Spain.. Why should Poles believe they will become better guests in the future or in Poland?

As Soviet era doctrines become forgotten and undone, systemic hatred for Jews will pass leaving it to be stoked by groups and persons that need a boogeyman to point at: xenophobes, extreme Christian groups, perpetually poor, etc.
#14864476
Thunderhawk wrote:Foreigners -the unknown, the stranger - will also have a level of distrust for those who do not have security of wealth and position, and that is most people. Polish politicians represent and mirror their constituents in this regard.

Hatred, rather than mere distrust, is generally that of the foreign element that does not attempt to integrate into the national identity. The Lipka Tatars were Tatars (non European whites) and Muslim who became part of the Polish nation by effort - they fought for Poland in her wars, uprisings, and in cultural pursuits. They follow the laws and over time they adopted the Polish language, those Muslims are fine. The Vietnamese in Warsaw are foreign in many ways, but they follow the laws and fly the Polish flag, and have done so for decades, so they are accepted. The MiddleEastern/NorthAfrican/African Muslims are wholly foreign and as a group have proven themselves to be bad guests in Germany, France, UK, Sweden, Spain.. Why should Poles believe they will become better guests in the future or in Poland?

As Soviet era doctrines become forgotten and undone, systemic hatred for Jews will pass leaving it to be stoked by groups and persons that need a boogeyman to point at: xenophobes, extreme Christian groups, perpetually poor, etc.

Another way to put it is to say among Poles its anxiety, and in western Europe its fear.

Although Distrust should be weaker in absense of strangers; in era of globalization you hear quicker of potential threats, so there is rationalization to distrust threats effects your neighbours. Also, their grandparents/textbooks still warns them from older dangers. So I can say its a combination of distrust hand hatred, but its more theoretic so I call it anxiety.

Hatred for Jews is often larger in absense of Jews for some reason. It applys for nations with ties to western cultures and religions; nations who are completely disconnected have no hatred. Separation from Arabs increased anti - Jewishness, where among Israeli Arabs its way smaller.
I would also distinguish Arabs from other Muslim minorities such as Tatars and Pakistani who mingles better and don't produce much crime. You have to notice also that Jews fully mingled in Europe, and in one hand it decreased hatred but for some it increased it, and I would adress it to cultural conflict that is in the background, aside of xenophobia.
Summerize: Polish people are just more nationalistic.

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