Coup in Zimbabwe. Why? What next? - Page 2 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14862999
The real lesson here is to buy a shitload of bitcoin on an American exchange and then immediately sell it on Golix. :eek:
#14863100
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/zimbabwe-military-seizes-control-but-denies-coup-against-mugabe/news-story/1a4296f0fb80653f5e1a5de6019aa2fb

Zimbabwe’s military is in control of the capital and the state broadcaster and is holding President Robert Mugabe and his wife under house arrest in what appeared to be a coup against the 93-year-old Mugabe, the world’s oldest head of state.

The military was at pains, however, to emphasise it had not staged a military takeover, but was instead starting a process to restore Zimbabwe’s democracy. Still, the military appeared to have brought an end to Mugabe’s long, 37-year reign in what the army’s supporters praised as a “bloodless correction”.

South Africa’s African New Agency said last night Mugabe had negotiated with the military to allow his wife Grace “safe haven” in South Africa in return for him giving up power.

“Mugabe has negotiated for Grace to leave the country while he prepares to step down. Press conference tomorrow afternoon,’’ a security source said. “Soldiers ­indeed have the President and his presidential guard under siege. Zimbabweans are urged to stay away from the CBD.”

South Africa and other neighbouring countries were sending in leaders to negotiate with Mugabe and the generals to encourage the transition.


Yes it looks like it's over for Mugabe at last! He was about to declare his wife as Vice President! Disgusting!
#14863110
Potemkin wrote: Tell that to the people of Chile. Lol.

Seriously, just how naive are you? :eh:


I know, I know. I have lived a sheltered political life. If there’s a bloodless coup in a political party that’s a big deal for me. Military shit is the stuff of movies in my world :hmm:
#14863118
I know, I know. I have lived a sheltered political life. If there’s a bloodless coup in a political party that’s a big deal for me. Military shit is the stuff of movies in my world :hmm:

Power grows from the barrel of a gun, ness31. Always and everywhere. Constitutions are merely the window dressing.
#14863136
Potemkin wrote:Power grows from the barrel of a gun, ness31. Always and everywhere. Constitutions are merely the window dressing.

Sensible, decent, democratic constitutions limit themselves in their objectives, they don't attempt to impose timeless moral values on the country. I support proportional representation parliamentary governance at all levels of government, with no more than two years between elections. Stupid people (that's most people in my less than humble opinion) often say what about Weimar Germany? What is remarkable about Weimar is not that democracy ended but it lasted as long as it did under such incredible pressures. And at the end of the day the majority voted for dictatorship, the Communists refused to support a Democratic government, so the people got what they wanted. The Communists wanted Stalin as their dictator rather than Hitler, hard cheese that's the way it goes with dictators.

Similar things are said about Israel's proportional representation. Now maybe you think that Israel shouldn't exist at all, but given that it does, given its situation, particularly noting that so many of Israel's Jewish citizens make Ray Moore look like a religious moderate, its maintenance of liberal norms and citizen's rights is truly remarkable.
#14863140
Rich wrote: And at the end of the day the majority voted for dictatorship


No, the majority didn't vote Nazi. The Nazi Party only got like 32% in both 1932 & '33, that's not a majority
#14863159
redcarpet wrote:No, the majority didn't vote Nazi. The Nazi Party only got like 32% in both 1932 & '33, that's not a majority

In both July 1932 and November 1932 the NSDAP with the KPD won a majority of the seats. In both elections the Nazis the KDP and the Socialist Workers Party between them won a majority of the votes. In both elections the majority voted for dictatorship and against democracy.

Did the German Communists say the Social Democrats were the same as the Nazis? No of course they didn't!

They said they were worse. They called the SPD the main German Socialist Party - social fascists, they were worse than regular fascists because they duped the workers. "First Hitler then us" was the Communist slogan.

A majority voted for dictatorship twice in 1932. And this is without examining the DNVP and the BVP, neither of whose commitment to democracy was actually stella. The DNVP was way to the right of British UKIP or the modern German AFD.
#14863165
"First Hitler then us" was the Communist slogan.

Were they wrong about that, Rich? :)
#14863291
Well, without the commies there would have been no Hitler. You reap what you sow.

And without Hitler, the commies never would have been able to take over half of Europe. You reap what you sow. :)
#14863294
Mugabe should not worry so much about politics at his age. It's better just to enjoy luxury retirement in the time he has left.

I think they will take care of him no matter who is in government.
#14863320
So let me get this right....a marxist, racist, dictator of a third world impovershed shit hole was overthrown by a coup...... in Africa?


And Bears shit in the woods.....

Time to bring back RHODESIA!!
#14863322
Bulaba Jones wrote:It did have a robust economy, one of the greatest agricultural centers in all of Africa, and had decent standards of living. And then Mugabe became the equally racist version of his predecessor, only even more inept and corrupt.


Racism didn't make Zimbabwe a shit hole, because as you admit, his "predecessor" was racist and it wasn't a shit hole then, so what changed? Perhaps we can look at another similar situation in the continent....South Africa....we could probably multiply examples....but lets think about this, what similarities did South Africa and Zimbabwe have in the change of their political structure and the correlation of such with a lost of first world status?
#14863369
Opposition leader Morgan Tsvangirai said earlier it was "in the interests of the people" that Mr Mugabe "resign... immediately".
The army moved in after Mr Mugabe last week sacked Vice-President Emmerson Mnangagwa, signalling that he favoured his wife Grace Mugabe to take over his Zanu-PF party and thus the presidency.
The BBC's Andrew Harding, in Zimbabwe, says that if President Mugabe can be persuaded to step down officially it could help legitimise the military's dramatic intervention.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-42020416


The Army did the right thing by detaining him but Mugabe still refuses to step down. Mugabe is trying to install his own wife to take him over as the president after sacking his potential successor. Mugabe needs to be tried for treason against the state and he should be forcibly removed from power. Zimbabwe cannot be ruled by a family dynasty, defying all democratic principles.
#14863371
Potemkin wrote:And without Hitler, the commies never would have been able to take over half of Europe. You reap what you sow. :)

That's a very fair point Potemkin. In fact I would go further and say that there would have been no Soviet Union without the First World War. Its my view that Brest Litsosk showed Lenin up as an empty suit. After that he lost the Left Social Revolutionaries and they started losing local Soviet elections in all the major cities - their power base. But even if you accept my harsh anti Communist viewpoint, its not like every other party wasn't an empty suit. In the Autumn of 1917 Russian was a society rapidly disintegrating in front of people's eyes. No party had an answer to the combined military economic and social crisis of 1917. A crisis orders of magnitude greater than the things we call crisis in the modern West.

It wasn't just Russia brought to the point of revolution, another word overused in modern times. For Serbia Russia, Austria, Hungary, Germany, Bulgaria, Italy, France, Britain, Japan and America WWI was a war of choice. A war driven by Conservatives and establishment Liberals. It certainly wasn't the left that dragged the world into war in 1914.
#14863392
That's a very fair point Potemkin. In fact I would go further and say that there would have been no Soviet Union without the First World War.

I absolutely agree with that. The Great War determined everything which happened in the 20th century; in fact, the entire history of the 20th century was merely a playing out of the political, social and diplomatic consequences of World War I; even the Second World War was merely 'round two' of the First, with the 40-year Cold War as a long, depressing coda. Those ecstatic crowds who gathered to cheer the outbreak of war in all the capitals of the European nations in August 1914 had no idea what was in store for them....

Its my view that Brest Litsosk showed Lenin up as an empty suit. After that he lost the Left Social Revolutionaries and they started losing local Soviet elections in all the major cities - their power base. But even if you accept my harsh anti Communist viewpoint, its not like every other party wasn't an empty suit. In the Autumn of 1917 Russian was a society rapidly disintegrating in front of people's eyes. No party had an answer to the combined military economic and social crisis of 1917. A crisis orders of magnitude greater than the things we call crisis in the modern West.

There is a story about Lenin from this period which is very telling - Lenin was attending a public lecture in April or May of 1917, in which the lecturer rhetorically asked, "Is there any political party in Russia today which has an answer to the problems which face us now?" Lenin immediately got to his feet in the audience and proclaimed: "There is such a Party!" And everyone else in the audience burst out laughing at him. But he was right.

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk was the solution to the military crisis facing Russia - the Germans had to be given almost everything they demanded. The objective military situation required it. And, after all, why not? Lenin confidently expected a proletarian revolution to break out in Germany any day now, in which case they would get back everything they gave up at Brest-Litovsk, and more. And he was right - there was a Communist revolution in Germany just months later. Unfortunately, it failed. It was to be another quarter of a century before Russia got back everything it gave up at Brest-Litovsk. May 1945 was the triumphant vindication of Lenin's policies of 1917-18.

It wasn't just Russia brought to the point of revolution, another word overused in modern times. For Serbia Russia, Austria, Hungary, Germany, Bulgaria, Italy, France, Britain, Japan and America WWI was a war of choice. A war driven by Conservatives and establishment Liberals. It certainly wasn't the left that dragged the world into war in 1914.

Indeed. Though it has to be said that the centre-left endorsed the war-mongering of the ruling elites of Europe in 1914. Even the socialists went along with the Great War, and encouraged their own nation's proletarians to kill other proletarians who happened to live under a different faction of the international bourgeoisie. When Lenin was told that the leadership of the Second International had given their public support to their respective nations' declarations of war in 1914, he at first refused to believe it. Such a colossal betrayal of the working class was beyond his comprehension. But it was true.
#14863398
I heard Grace Mugabe has a deep love of extravagant and expensive items. Like some kind of jewel encrusted headboard. For me you can spot a corrupt leader with the shiny baubles they spend money on. She was supposedly a pretty typist from his office pool. 40 years his junior.

How any of that becomes a bid at the presidency is all about corruption.

If they are living like King and Queen Midas they are corrupt. No doubt of that.
#14863449
Tainari88 wrote:I heard Grace Mugabe has a deep love of extravagant and expensive items. Like some kind of jewel encrusted headboard. For me you can spot a corrupt leader with the shiny baubles they spend money on.She was supposedly a pretty typist from his office pool. 40 years his junior.

How any of that becomes a bid at the presidency is all about corruption.

If they are living like King and Queen Midas they are corrupt. No doubt of that.


And like last year I think it was to make the public pay millions for his son's birthday party. I mean, how an you justify that? Come on!
#14863463
And like last year I think it was to make the public pay millions for his son's birthday party. I mean, how an you justify that? Come on!

The Mugabe family was clearly treating the country as their personal possession. The state treasury (such as it was) was their piggy bank, to be raided whenever Grace Mugabe needed another shiny bauble or they wanted to put on a good bash for their son's birthday. Add to that the economic mismanagement of Zimbabwe's economy, and even Mugabe's own power base eventually couldn't take any more. There was no way they were going to take orders from the likes of Grace Mugabe as their commander-in-chief.

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