Venezuela opposition banned from running in 2018 election - Page 7 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14917127
Sivad wrote:There's certainly gonna be some tears when the country descends into civil war. If Maduro actually gave a shit about his country or his people he would be doing everything in his power to bring the opposition back into the political process.



Where is the motivation Sivad? Why do they have to deal with an opposition that is very against a bunch of poor people who did not have anything to lose by voting in a raving socialist?

The opposition has to appeal to the poor who have red shirts on. That is what they need to do. How to appeal to them? The opposition appeals to middle class and upper crust people who don't care about socialism. Lol. They want to have their old houses back, ten servants and the cushy lives they led before the rabble lower class poverty stricken tacky folk took over their nation.

They cry and scream to have the rich, posh life of stability of the wealthy back. They should have cared before the shit hit the fan. They did not.

Let it be a warning to many in the upper echelons of elitism in many societies. Not just Venezuela's. But to all elitists in every nation. If things get really bad and you have most voters as the majority being poor as hell...and they can vote you out of office? Then respond to their needs. Don't be corrupt, don't be complacent and don't be crying when you get your assets devalued and your set up is burned out of the economy because the majority don't have anything to lose.

You don't want to lose? Deal with how you are going to keep the basic needs happening for the vast majority. Can't do it? Cry. Lose your money. And live in exile in Miami complaining to other wealthy assholes who were ousted out of Nicaragua, Cuba, Mexico, Central America and every other place and can't go back to their previous lives. Meanwhile the dummy American ignorants don't seem to get that in Latin America there are wealthy, rich people and they don't want to live the poverty Latin American dream in the USA waiting tables and speaking broken English.

They want the USA government to help them get their power seats back and not sacrifice their lives trying to kick out socialists they don't like. Somehow the Gringo gov't doesn't care about their whining. They are all about their own pockets.

Live and learn! :D
#14917134
skinster wrote:Sivad just can't help shilling for the US empire. :lol:


In the mind of a commie kid any criticism of fake socialism is shilling for empire. That's why your bullshit fake socialism always ends in a gulag, you people just aren't critical of power when it cloaks itself in the guise of socialism.


“fraudulent” election was heavily monitored by international bodies and observers from over 40 countries. If there was any evidence of cheating over 4 million votes (margin of victory), it would be difficult to hide


I haven't heard anyone claim vote count fraud was a significant problem. There was electoral fraud in the form of voter intimidation and vote buying. Even Maduro's campaign slogan was a thinly veiled threat: “The Fatherland protects you and gives you everything. And you must give the Fatherland political power.”

[Government media] is also fomenting the notion that the ballot is not secret and that people who vote for the opposition will lose government jobs, public housing, and vital food handouts.

“It matters little whether this threat is real or perceived. Most people can’t afford to risk their paltry food rations to in order find out,” wrote the Caracas political blogger Emiliana Duarte. Maduro’s re-election pitch “pretty much comes down to ‘vote for me if you want food, starve if you want to make a point’”, she said.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... nri-falcon


Government control of most TV and radio stations that broadcast nothing but pro-Maduro propaganda and barring the opposition from running also invalidate the election.
#14917138
Tainari88 wrote:Where is the motivation Sivad?


The threat of civil war.

Why do they have to deal with an opposition that is very against a bunch of poor people who did not have anything to lose by voting in a raving socialist?


That's called politics, you have to deal with the world as it is. We engage in politics(concession and compromise) in order to avoid violent conflict. If Maduro had majority support he'd happily engage with the opposition. But since he only has about 20% of the population behind him his only options were relinquishing power or dismantling democracy.
#14917141
Sivad wrote:In the mind of a commie kid any criticism of fake socialism is shilling for empire. That's why your bullshit fake socialism always ends in a gulag, you people just aren't critical of power when it cloaks itself in the guise of socialism.




I haven't heard anyone claim vote count fraud was a significant problem. There was electoral fraud in the form of voter intimidation and vote buying. Even Maduro's campaign slogan was a thinly veiled threat: “The Fatherland protects you and gives you everything. And you must give the Fatherland political power.”



Government control of most TV and radio stations that broadcast nothing but pro-Maduro propaganda and barring the opposition from running also invalidate the election.


I think the Pope's solution is the right solution.

I also think thinking the opposition are not motivated by real change? Are they into change? Or are they into privilege? That is why they need to revamp how they go out there and cope with any change they want to implement.

Maduro is never going to get the backing Chavez had. Period.

Civil war is bad. But that is what the USA has promoted if it doesn't get its way. Civil war, dictators, and stupidity. When is it going to be fair and actually do something for the people who live in Venezuela, Chile, Peru, etc.?

If they want to go back to Vampire stuff from the past? No one is going to listen to them. Hypocrites. Corrupt. Untrustworthy that no one in Latin America in their right mind is going to trust.

All that bad past will bite them in the rear hard. It is reality.
#14917144
Sivad wrote:In the mind of a commie kid any criticism of fake socialism is shilling for empire. That's why your bullshit fake socialism always ends in a gulag, you people just aren't critical of power when it cloaks itself in the guise of socialism.




I haven't heard anyone claim vote count fraud was a significant problem. There was electoral fraud in the form of voter intimidation and vote buying. Even Maduro's campaign slogan was a thinly veiled threat: “The Fatherland protects you and gives you everything. And you must give the Fatherland political power.”



Government control of most TV and radio stations that broadcast nothing but pro-Maduro propaganda and barring the opposition from running also invalidate the election.


I think the Pope's solution is the right solution.

I also think thinking the opposition are not motivated by real change? Are they into change? Or are they into privilege? That is why they need to revamp how they go out there and cope with any change they want to implement.

Maduro is never going to get the backing Chavez had. Period.

Civil war is bad. But that is what the USA has promoted if it doesn't get its way. Civil war, dictators, and stupidity. When is it going to be fair and actually do something for the people who live in Venezuela, Chile, Peru, etc.?

If they want to go back to Vampire stuff from the past? No one is going to listen to them. Hypocrites. Corrupt. Untrustworthy that no one in Latin America in their right mind is going to trust.

All that bad past will bite them in the rear hard. It is reality.

I like this article about innovation in politics in Latin America:

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/ ... innovation

I like it because finally a solution has to be rooted on your own nation's history and on your own culture and values, yet not closed, always open and always taking what is best about the other cultures, governments and groups that are active tackling the same problems.

It is the only path out of the problems. Latin America is going to be very innovative with the political solutions. And the reasons are obvious.

Can't rely on the hypocritical vampire like imperialists. Can't rely on the corrupt elite or the clumsy attempts at trying to ameliorate inequality. What LA's biggest virtue is? Community. A big, strong, and very active sense of deep community. It is the biggest strength to solve the biggest issues. That is the solution.
#14917151
Tainari88 wrote:I also think thinking the opposition are not motivated by real change? Are they into change? Or are they into privilege?


The middle and working class don't give a shit about poor people and the upper class is extremely reactionary, but this is the reality, you have to work with these people or there's gonna be war.


Civil war is bad. But that is what the USA has promoted if it doesn't get its way. Civil war, dictators, and stupidity. When is it going to be fair and actually do something for the people who live in Venezuela, Chile, Peru, etc.?


The US is an evil empire, but that is also a fact of reality you have to take into consideration before embarking on any grand socialist project. If the push for socialism is guaranteed to bring down the wrath of a superpower on your country then it's reckless to just go for it anyway.

“A great many men have imagined states and princedoms such as nobody ever saw or knew in the real world, for there’s such a difference between the way we really live and the way we ought to live that the man who neglects the real to pursue the ideal will accomplish his ruin, not his salvation.”
#14917180
Sivad wrote:The middle and working class don't give a shit about poor people and the upper class is extremely reactionary, but this is the reality, you have to work with these people or there's gonna be war.




The US is an evil empire, but that is also a fact of reality you have to take into consideration before embarking on any grand socialist project. If the push for socialism is guaranteed to bring down the wrath of a superpower on your country then it's reckless to just go for it anyway.

“A great many men have imagined states and princedoms such as nobody ever saw or knew in the real world, for there’s such a difference between the way we really live and the way we ought to live that the man who neglects the real to pursue the ideal will accomplish his ruin, not his salvation.”



Oh, Sivad it is very easy to answer you...if you believe that the only way one solves problems is by being scared of what the evil people might do? Then no progress will ever arrive period. Not for any real social or economic movement.

Most evil triumphs not because the evil people are high and mighty and you got to be scared of them...they triumph because the majority of the good people fail to act.

Apathy kills more movements by far than the ones who are scared. Most human beings all want the same things out of political life, economic life and social life. A decent standard of living, to be included in many decisions, to have a way of making a living with dignity and with security, and to be able to feel one belongs to the society. That one is part of the society and not marginalized. That is very universal.

Chavez talked for over an hour with Aljazeera and the station got a lot of audience from the Arab states.....listening to a man who spoke Spanish, was from a different religious tradition than they were, and who had no social stake in their society. Yet all of them were highly interested in the subject of what are the needs of poor people with oil rich land? That perked their ears up.

People have common ground and find it in the most unlikely places. I learned that with my mother. Who made tremendous connections with people from all over the world. Totally underestimated how many things in common people have with each other....and how they love to learn from the experiences of others.

Never underestimate the power of humans willing to imagine something better for themselves.

You can't let yourself be paralyzed in fear and inaction because the big bad people are out there and they might kill you or they might not like what you are doing and do something terrible. If they are not in the moral high ground? They are not going to get the best people to work for them. Guaranteed. Again, selfish people full of shit values won't be making history in the end. Ever.
#14917189
Tainari88 wrote:Oh, Sivad it is very easy to answer you...if you believe that the only way one solves problems is by being scared of what the evil people might do? Then no progress will ever arrive period. Not for any real social or economic movement.


I pick my battles and fight to win. I don't engage in or support pointless struggles that are sure to make everyone worse off in the end. Chavez could have used that oil boom to secure his country's independence from the international banking cartel. Instead he squandered his people's future on political patronage and clientelism to establish a power base for himself.

Gulagist revolutions have never ended in any kind of progress. The only socialists that have ever made any real lasting progress are those that take the world as it is and work with it. And we would have lot more social democratic progress if the red fascists weren't going around gulaging societies in the name of socialism.
#14917200
Sivad wrote:I pick my battles and fight to win. I don't engage in or support pointless struggles that are sure to make everyone worse off in the end. Chavez could have used that oil boom to secure his country's independence from the international banking cartel. Instead he squandered his people's future on political patronage and clientelism to establish a power base for himself.

Gulagist revolutions have never ended in any kind of progress. The only socialists that have ever made any real lasting progress are those that take the world as it is and work with it. And we would have lot more social democratic progress if the red fascists weren't going around gulaging societies in the name of socialism.


I won't ever believe that one has to always give in to groups, elites and exploiters in order to keep a troubled peace. Life in this world Sivad is about constant steps forward and some steps backward. The important thing to remember is to learn from the past and come up with solutions.

For me the capitalists raping the Earth, paying people nothing, creating inequality and hating on people for being who they are and being people of humble origins when the majority of people are that in this world...and only catering to the needs of a tiny group in order to do what? If you don't share what the Earth has for all in a fair and decent manner...if you don't see Venezuelans as worthy of being cared about? No change you will have. No power you will have.

How much influence would you have in your life Sivad if you don't care about anyone? Do you think people feel your lack of caring about them or they just assume you care and trust you without any 'caring' investment on your part?

It is a universal principle. You walk into a restaurant and no one pays attention to you....no one seats you or gives you a menu, or comes to bring the water and ask for your order. They just don't care. Will they get your business? Yes or no? Will you walk out and not like the place and probably if someone tells you if that place has good food or not? What will you say?

You don't care about Venezuelans like you just stated earlier? You won't have any influence.

You care? You listen? You read, you inquire, you study, you talk, you ask Venezuelans, you reflect on their needs and problems, and you respond.

There is a solution.

You stay afraid, you keep thinking that you have to give in to people who don't care about the country and who just want to create resentment so they can retain some privileges at the expense of the well being of the vast majority? You won't win Sivad.

Not in the battle that counts. The long war of justice. It is a tough road. But necessary. The currency is CARING about your fellow human beings. Not hating on humanity because deep in your heart and mind you don't believe that ____________ insert your group of hating on, are not quite as human. You don't believe they are really human. They are sub humans. Not worthy of respect, consideration and sharing what you have. It is interesting. People in general find it a lot harder to say no to someone who is genuinely interested and caring about them as individuals and who treat them well and with justice, than to the ones who are treating them badly. Why is it hard for others to accept that in politics there are consequences? If you allow corruption and privilege it will pollute the main values of democracy and independence. That is not a mystery. Yet, if you make money more important than popular votes? Don't cry when you lose control to the ones who have all the money. That is what cause and effect is about. The USA government is doing that.

I don't like or respect racists. In fact, I really despise them deeply. But if I stop thinking they are not human and don't deserve acknowledgement of them being humans? And capable of change with the right conditions? Then where does one have the moral high ground? You don't.

You can't live the values of the people who are oppressing others through their discrimination and denial of humanity and dignity to their fellow human beings. Because the values those racists, etc do? If all of their actions follow those values and as such they become disconnected from caring. On some fundamental level they stop caring. They stop caring about the many who somehow don't fit their tiny ideas. They find it hard to care at all. They find it easy to care about a very small group of people. Most racists I know personally Sivad, love their kids, their spouses and etc. Where they go wrong is in not seeing any humanity in people unlike them. They don't have the ability to be inclusive and to be self reflective and say, "I guess I don't know any people from that group at all well. I base my opinion on something less than experience, knowledge and some truth....more on visceral reactions and prejudices and wanting to be right. I know they are human.....but they are not quite as human as I am...as my child is, or my wife is or my husband, etc." And they are disconnected and don't care. Once that happens? Never will they be able to understand caring is the key to change. Not apathy, not hatred, not exclusion, not marginalizing, not judging on and hating on people. The only thing that perpetrates is a mirror like reaction. You hate on people, they will hate on you, you disrespect people, they will disrespect you.

In politics it is the same thing. Power relationships are built in to all human relationships. Many feel abusing people with less power than they have is alright and acceptable. Justified and right. Until the day the person receiving the abuse decides to rebel or to go over the top and maybe kill the abuser with a blunt object. Or run away and never work for them again and it is all karmic. It has a deeply law based universality to it. Cause and effect.

My politics is about positive change. Love of people. Connection to people and working for the benefit of the entire society and not for exclusive clicks of privilege. That is what I chose. And I am consistent to that. We should all choose to be consistent to our values. Hopefully they are not about fear, exclusion and hating on others because they are not the same as we are. But the world is full of that. I just don't think it will end that way. We are too socially aware as a species for such a lonely ending. ;)

Once you do that?(Stop caring). You won't have any true influence for change in a positive way. Period.

I like this video, an economist talking about the details of why economics are about interesting complexities:

#14917213
Tainari88 wrote:I won't ever believe that one has to always give in to groups, elites and exploiters in order to keep a troubled peace.


You don't have to give in and that's definitely not what I'm suggesting. What we have to do is achieve socialism through democracy, that's the only way it works. A minority can't impose socialism on a majority, that's gulagism. Maduro has at best 25% of the electorate supporting him and he's trying to radically alter Venezuelan society. That can only result in civil war or gulag state and neither are preferable to the status quo.


Life in this world Sivad is about constant steps forward and some steps backward. The important thing to remember is to learn from the past and come up with solutions.


I have learned from the past, that's why I'm so opposed to these collectivist peasant revolts. Ignorant peasants can't hold down socialism, you need the support of an educated middle class for that.
#14917248
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:It's going to work next time though, just trust the socialists.


A socialist system will never work with true believers in the vanguard. You have to maintain a rigorous skepticism of state power to keep government in check and these ideological ninnies suspend all critical faculties wherever socialism is concerned. They act as apologists for the state rather than watchdogs for the public. They're just not good citizenship material for a socialist society. Ideological socialists are detrimental to socialism, that's the irony
#14917293
What is detrimental to socialism are people who are fake socialists. But one has fakers in all political ideologies. Fake people who say they 'care' and all they are in it for is themselves. Again, selfish people will never do anything great in this world. And neither will the ones who believe in capitalism as if it is magical and the best thing since sliced bread and not about someone owning something and the other not and negotiating how to live between two different relationships to property and to each other in terms of socioeconomics.

I think that is what makes it hard. In order for socialism to work properly? It takes people to be able to share without being selfish people. And that is a tall order for most conservatives. They always are afraid of losing something, sharing something or doing something for others. Because in their minds? Only they are to be trusted. Fearful as hell they are. They are. ;)
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