Venezuela opposition banned from running in 2018 election - Page 10 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14924926
Heisenberg wrote:Pointing out that Venezuela is a banana republic run by a gang of buffoons does not necessitate, or even imply, support for US government-led regime change ...

Actually, it does.

First of all, "Banana Republic" is racist. America has always used racism to target the future victims of its resource-stealing wars.

Secondly, it's inaccurate. Venezuela is an Oil Republic. And the inaccuracy and ignorance of foreign countries is another valued asset of America's war machine. The more ignorant American are, the easier it is to convince them to "kill bad buys the way Spiderman does."

"Buffoons" refers to rich people who are totally out of touch with normal people's reality. Neither Chavez nor Maduro fit that description at all. So this is just another empty smear, like when American pastors used to claim that the Injuns had "no soul" and "worshipped the devil." That sure made them easier to kill so that Americans could steal more land.

The lies of Empire are easy to claim as your own because they've been branded as "The smart money" by America's buffoon classes. America's poor could learn a lot from Venezuela if they could shut off their televisions, videogames, and cellphones and honestly talk to one another about serious stuff.
#14930389
As socialist Venezuela collapses, socialist Bolivia thrives. Here’s why.
There’s just one problem with all this bashing of socialism: Bolivia.

Since 2006, Bolivia has been run by socialists every bit as militant as Venezuela’s. But as economist Omar Zambrano has argued, the country has experienced a spectacular run of economic growth and poverty reduction with no hint of the chaos that has plagued Venezuela. While inflation spirals toward the thousand-percent mark in Venezuela, in Bolivia it runs below 4 percent a year. Shortages of basic consumption goods — rampant in Caracas — are unheard of in La Paz. And extreme poverty — now growing fast in Venezuela — affects just 17 percent of Bolivians now, down from 38 percent before the socialists took over 10 years ago, even as inequality shrinks dramatically. The richest 10 percent in Bolivia used to earn 128 times more than the poorest 10 percent; today, they earn 38 times as much.

How can this be? It’s true that Bolivia has been on the receiving end of a staggering boom in natural resources for much of the past decade, as both the volume of its gas and mining exports and the price they fetch abroad jumped at the same time. Export revenue grew six-fold in the decade after Evo Morales, the charismatic hard-left president, took power, from $2.2 billion just before of his election to $12.9 billion at the peak of the boom.

So yes, that’s a bit like putting the game settings on “easy” when it comes to development. But it can hardly explain why Bolivia thrives while Venezuela spirals: Venezuela enjoyed an even bigger commodities boom, with exports climbing from $23 billion before the oil boom to $153 billion at its peak.

Turns out it’s not the boom itself that matters, it’s what you do with it.

Venezuela’s socialists spent the entire export windfall, and then some. Bolivia’s socialists saved much of theirs.

Venezuela ran large budget deficits every year, even as oil prices skyrocketed between 2005 to 2014. That meant the country was piling on debt even as government revenue exploded — a senseless, pro-cyclical policy that left Venezuela up a creek without a paddle when commodity prices tanked.

In the meantime, Bolivia was running budget surpluses every year between 2006 and 2014. This allowed it to draw down the public sector’s debt, which fell from 83 percent of GDP in 2003 to just 26 percent in 2014, even as Bolivia built up its international reserves dramatically, from $1.7 billion in 2005 to $15.1 billion at the end of the boom in 2014.

Turns out the difference between Bolivia and Venezuela has nothing to do with abstract ideological labels, and everything to do with fiscal prudence.

I know, I know, fiscal prudence sounds deadly dull, but it makes an enormous difference in real people’s lives. While Venezuela’s reckless socialists were impoverishing the country’s once thriving middle class, Bolivia’s socialists were creating an entirely new indigenous middle class, even spawning a whole new style of architecture along with it. Why? Because newly affluent Bolivians can afford it: Per capita GDP more than tripled from just $1,000 a year to over $3,200 over a decade. At the same time, new government social programs designed to help older people, mothers and other at-risk groups saw to major improvements in social indicators. To take just one, consider this: Thirty-two percent of Bolivians were chronically malnourished in 2003. By 2012, just 18 percent were.

because they kept spending under control during the fat years and drew down debt, Bolivia’s socialists have many more options for dealing with the lean years than Venezuela’s could dream of.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/glo ... 70dab5c749
#14930390
Venezuela is not socialist.

So with all the recent drama about Venezuela going around, I think it's time to reiterate something that many Leftists seem to have forgotten: Venezuela is not socialist. Venezuela's percentage of public ownership is between 30%-40% (by adding together percentages of Government Spending as percentage of GDP and Public workforce proportions, including cooperatives). This is about how publically owned a Social Democracy is - France for example is at 38% of the same metric. The United States is at 28%. Cuba, by comparison is at 76%

Socialism is not a meaningful concept if it does not involve majority public ownership. Otherwise you are basically giving the Fox News definition of socialism where anything the government does = communism. The entire crux of socialism is that the quantitative transformation of public ownership into a majority is a qualitative change in the nature of the economic system from capitalism into socialism.

Hence Venezuela cannot by any reasonable definition be called socialist. And this is not a "no true scotsman" argument like the"USSR was really state capitalist" argument. No. There is literally no nuance needed here, the economy is and always has been under majority private control. It is and has always been capitalist. Call it overly-regulated capitalism or whatever but it is transparently not socialist for that simple reason. There can be no real debate about this when the economy is mostly private, capitalist, controlled.

Is Venezuela transitioning to Socialism? After 17+ years in power I find that doubtful considering they still do not have majority public ownership and have taken few steps other then taking full control of oil to doing so.

The point being: when people rant about how Venezuela is the "inevitable" outcome of socialism, point out to them how even by the most conservative definition it's not socialist.
#14930714
China Approves US$5Bn Loan for Venezuelan Oil Development
Venezuelan officials said Chinese cooperation opens up alternative networks outside the sanctions of the United States.
The Development Bank of China has approved a loan of US$5 billion for Venezuela to increase petroleum development, Prensa Latina reports.

These funds will allow Venezuela to upgrade the development of its key industry, as well as expand China-Venezuela cooperation.

Venezuelan Finance Minister Simon Zerpa praised China-Venezuela bilateral relations and said that during a recent call between Chinese President Xi Jinping and Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro, both leaders expressed a will to further develop ties.

Such ties, Zerpa said to Prensa Latina, make it possible to establish alternative international trade networks and financial systems that open up possibilities of economic cooperation beyond the framework of the United States, which has attempted to strangle Venezuela with economic sanctions.

Zerpa, who is personally sanctioned by the U.S. Treasury Department, is currently meeting with Chinese officials in Beijing and will continue to hold financing talks this week.

Venezuela's oil output has been falling in recent years, reaching an all-time low of 1.36 million barrels per day in June, causing significant budget problems for the oil-dependent nation.

The drop in production has in part been blamed on corruption within the public firm, with eleven top executives the latest arrested last week in a wide-reaching anti-corruption probe.

Equally, falling production levels have also been attributed to a lack of infrastructure investment. Last month, a workforce of concerned technicians from other industries offered a “volunteer” maintenance and repair operation in the Paraguana refinery, highlighting the personnel and upkeep problems in the state-run PDVSA oil firm.
https://venezuelanalysis.com/news/13918
#14937519
Would it have been less corrupt if the US-backed coup against the elected government back in 2002 successfully installed Carmona as dictator?

Like it or not, Maduro is an elected president, and the Venezuelan opposition has actual, documented funding and backing of the US State Department, etc. In the US, it has historically been acceptable to crack down on organizations with foreign government backing, or organizations that are dedicated to overthrowing the government (the Communist Party, and even the Socialists). Why is it not acceptable for Venezuela to do the same about opposition groups doing the same thing?
#14937536
Bulaba Jones wrote:Would it have been less corrupt if the US-backed coup against the elected government back in 2002 successfully installed Carmona as dictator?

Like it or not, Maduro is an elected president, and the Venezuelan opposition has actual, documented funding and backing of the US State Department, etc. In the US, it has historically been acceptable to crack down on organizations with foreign government backing, or organizations that are dedicated to overthrowing the government (the Communist Party, and even the Socialists). Why is it not acceptable for Venezuela to do the same about opposition groups doing the same thing?


Let me try to put some perspective from a South American at what is really going on. I'm Uruguayan and I currently live in Brazil. I wont get too much into it, but let's say I work with diplomacy.

Venezuela today became a proxy of different power houses. From the Brazilian led South American leftists Foro de São Paulo, to USA and Russian interests in the region, to a silent power-struggle USA has against Brazil to settle a base in the Brazilian frontier USA that goes on and on since WW2 ended, to narcotraffick, oil reserves... oh man... It's hard to try to explain what is going on in Venezuela right now.

The truth is one though, everything in the end falls on Brazil's lap, mostly the lack of action, leadership, from whom should be the region leader. Everyone knows if Brazil doesn't push the trigger , Venezuela will end up becoming another USA backyard. Yes, Russia also has their hands in this because they support Maduro but Brazil is the one with the military and intelligence and most of all interest in ending the madness that became Maduro's Government. PT Party in Brazil was not just a horror show for Brazilians was terrible for the entire region. Both Brazil's ex Presidents, Dilma and Lula, support Maduro. Temer, the VP in power after Dilma was impeached, kept Dilma's token lunatic as Ministry of Foreign affairs.

Roraima is a city that borders Venezuela and so far received over 600.000 Venezuelans.

Let's go back to the frontier with Brazil. There's a Amazonian Belt over there, that is likely the richest zone in minerals in the world and contains a under river that is one of the largest reserves of potable water in the planet.

Millions were invested in certain ONG, movements to demand a region called Triple A became a "reserve". The intention is make that a country inside Brazil in the next decade, a area that would also cross the Andes, something crossing the Pacific and Atlantic.

Then we go back to good old oil, Venezuela has plenty, likely the largest reserve outside the Middle East. For those who don't know, oil has purity levels, the more pure it is the cheaper it is to produce fuel of any kind. Basically, USA oil compared to Venezuelan or Middle East oil is nothing but grass. Venezuela and Saudi Arabia not only have tons of oil, they have tons of the purest oil around. No need to mention USA has plenty of reasons to get their hands in Venezuela.


In many ways, Venezuela is a dear country, most countries like Venezuela, was a prosperous nation before Chavez managed to come into power and Brazil and Argentina know well they have their hands on making Chavez as Brazil payed for his Government. On another note, the alliance with certain Islamic States really goes against Brazilian anti Islamic policy that exists before Islam was a thing. Not gonna get deep into it, but Maduro's alliance with Saudi Arabia and Iran in a political level might be his demise.

Venezuela's current situation and future isn't a tango for 2, more like a group dance with a unfortunate outcome .

USA invited Colombia to join OTAN, Colombia became USA precious token in South America. Colombia also borders Brazil and Venezuela. The outcome will affect Uruguay, Chile and Argentina directly. Macri is a weak man, with a weak Government. My country is small, Uruguay has only 3 million people. Chile can't act alone, again this will fall on Brazil's side of the court.

Elections in Brazil will dictate the future of Venezuela. If the right wing wins, they will likely take action against Maduro with the excuse of the need to do it before "USA or Russia" took over Venezuela. If the Left-Globalist wins they will likely allow USA or Russia to make a regime change favoring them.

Whatever action Brazil takes or not take will directly influence their own territory in the next decade, also Chile's eventual problems since the battle for the Triple A includes crossing to their side of the ocean through the Andes. That will also put Argentina in a tough spot.

Venezuela's issues isn't just their own, the frontier with Brazil and Colombia has a value that is hard to calculate in numbers, like some trillion of dollars in resources.

On top of all that, Venezuela became a Narco state, literally not figuratively. Maduro is where many narco roots start and where others end. From Middle East to USA to South America, every respectful cartel (including USA DEA) has their representative in Venezuela.
#14937538
Bulaba Jones wrote:Like it or not, Maduro is an elected president...


In the case of Chavez or Erdogan I would agree, but when it comes to Maduro that statement is utter nonsense.

Bulaba Jones wrote:...and the Venezuelan opposition has actual, documented funding and backing of the US State Department


The US state department spends a few million a year on the promotion of democracy, civil society, free press etc. I guess in a dictatorship that qualifies as "funding the opposition". Needless to say Maduro has the entire state apparatus behind it, so it's peanuts either way.
#14937564
layman wrote:A shame they failed to kill the tyrant.

Ruining a country in such a corrupt manner really does warrant a death sentence in my opinion.


I also support armed intervention in the US to enact regime change. I don't see why we need to stand by and watch a country go reactionary due to the irresponsibility of its people. The issues are much too important for the US voters to be left to decide for themselves.
#14937716
Fair enough. this likely isn’t intervention but the long suffering patriots of Venezuela.

Us democracy is preventing trump doing much though btw. This guy is dismantling it while his country burns and starved.

Your dislike of the West is fine but there are other bad regimes in the world and Venezuela is suffering through criminal negligence and corruption.
#14937774
Thing in Venezuela will improve once outside forces fuck off. People are straight up retarded if they can't see that any interest in the country by the West is due to wanting it's wealth of natural resources. If we actually gave a shit about people, we'd be talking about Yemen every single day for the last 3 years.



The majority have their government's back:


Rugoz wrote:The US state department spends a few million a year on the promotion of democracy, civil society, free press etc.


:lol:
#14937780
skinster wrote:Thing in Venezuela will improve once outside forces fuck off


Not gonna happen, you're own post about China approving $5BN is proof of that. You think China is going to give them that much money and not expect to be able to influence their internal policies? Just look at Africa for an example.

I'm not China bashing, I'm just pointing out that Venezuela is just a pawn in the geopolitical game. The US has it's hands in it, and now China is getting its hands deeper in. None of this will help the average venezuelan, only their elites (right or left wing elites, which ever remains in power in the long term).

It's all a big game. Sad, but true.
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