[skinster]

What shit are you talking today?

[Rancid]

I suggest you study up on the concept called Geopolitics.

[skinster]

I suggest you study up the definitions of allies and enemies. They mean different things!

[Sivad]

The majority have their government's back:

The government doesn't have anywhere near majority support.

[skinster]

Source?

[Rancid]

I suggest you study up the definitions of allies and enemies. They mean different things!

I hate to use this analogy, but basically, you are discussing Checkers, while all the players involved in Venezuela (US, China, etc. etc.) are playing Chess.

Let's start with a question. I'm going to use China, but it's equally fair and valid to use the US, EU, Nato, etc. etc. as an example. It's just easier to start with China since you seem to honestly think they are the best buds of the Venezuelan people.

China is a one party state. Recently, with Xi Jingping's "thought" enshrined in the party's constitution, you could argue it's a near dictatorship at this point. They also have very clear goals to influence the world economically & socially. They have also made it clear they are willing to use all of their economic and military options to do this. With this backdrop, why on earth would you think China is handing money to Venezuela just because they're buds? It has been proven time and time again, that whenever any country provides "aid" to another, it's ALWAYs with string attached. Usually those strings are to serve the interests of the lender.

Venezuala = oil which is critical to China
Venezuela = USA's back yard, which is a wonderful way to stick it back to the US for the US getting involved in the South China Seas disputes.
There are a million reasons why China would want to gain influence in Latin America. It's all the same reasons the USSR tried it. It's why the US does it too!

If you think China isn't giving money to Venezuela because it wants something in return. You are nearly insane (I don't mean you personally, I mean universal you).

Ultimately, China doesn't give a shit who's in power in Venezuela, so long as they can be bought, and so long as they do not like the USA. Equally, the USA doesn't give a shit who's in power in Venezuela, so long as they can be bought, and so long as they do not like whoever the USA doesn't like. Either case, it's probably not good for the average Venezuelan.

If you cannot view international politics this way, then you aren't thinking (again, I don't mean you personally, but universal you).

[skinster]

I'm not denying there's strings attached Noemon edit: rule 2, but China is an ALLY of Venezuela which has its own interests and will respect its ally's interests. The US and other forces involved in an attempt at regime change in Venezuela are starkly different. I can't believe this needs pointing out.

[Rancid]

Venezuela which has its own interests and will respect its ally's interests

So long as those interests don't conflict. Which, they will eventually. It happens all the time when super powers intervene in the affairs of other nations. What was once the savior eventually becomes the enemy. You're just trapping yourself in the cycle. It's a cycle that repeats with different countries. My point is, I don't think it's ever going to benefit Venezuelans in the long term. As usually, it only will benefit those in power.

[skinster]

You started it with the insults while pretending to know what you're talking about, so check yerself before you wreck yourself.

Today in the lordless year of 2018, allies and enemies are the same thing!

Back on topic:

[Sivad]

China is an ALLY of Venezuela which has its own interests and will respect its ally's interests.

No it doesn't, China's got Venezuela over a barrel, the terms are one sided and not in Venezuela's favor. The Chinese aren't the good guys, they're fucking Venezuela as hard as they can.

[skinster]

Source?

I think you're confusing China with the US and Saudis, etc.

[Sivad]

Source?

It ain't teleSur

[Sivad]

I think you're confusing China with the US and Saudis, etc.

I think you're confusing China with a country that gives a shit about anything other than its bottom line.

[skinster]

It ain't teleSur

It ain't anything so far.

I think you're confusing China with a country that gives a shit about anything other than its bottom line.

I'm well aware that China has interests, those can be seen by what China is gaining by the loans it's offered Venezuela. The relationship between China and Venezeuala didn't begin when I posted that article in the last page, they've been working together for over a decade.

[Sivad]

It ain't anything so far.



I'm well aware that China has interests, those can be seen by what China is gaining by the loans it's offered Venezuela. The relationship between China and Venezeuala didn't begin when I posted that article in the last page, they've been working together for over a decade.

The oil for loans deal was cut when oil was $100 a barrel, now the Venezuelans are defaulting even though they're shipments have been increasing. So now China is asset stripping the Venezuelan economy, it's got a multi decade lease on it's main offshore platform and it's taking significant stakes in other operations as well. The kicker is the Venezuelans had to spend a good chunk of their loans on Chinese exports. The deal is a joke, China was the governments only lifeline so it basically cut a really shitty deal with China just for short term survival.

[Rancid]

The deal is a joke, China was the governments only lifeline so it basically cut a really shitty deal with China just for short term survival.

It's a shitty deal for average Venezuelans. It's wonderful for the Venezuelan power holders (Maduro and his circle) though. They will benefit greatly as some of that loan money will go into their personal coffers in some off shore accounts. This will be their little nest egg in case they ever get thrown out of power. This is standard practice by government and business elites.

Maduro will be perfectly fine, the Venezuelan people? Not so much.

@skinster, don't get me wrong. the same situation would likely happen if it were the US (via IMF) making out the loans to Venezuela.

My thesis has been, Venezuelans are fucked either way. It's a catch-22 (I just read that book recently too. lol ).

[Sivad]

It's a shitty deal for average Venezuelans. It's wonderful for the Venezuelan power holders (Maduro and his circle) though. They will benefit greatly as some of that loan money will go into their personal coffers in some off shore accounts. This will be their little nest egg in case they ever get thrown out of power. Maduro will be perfectly fine, the Venezuelan people? Not so much.

You don't know how right you are. China's been demanding more transparency on how the loans are being spent because Venezuela is such a black hole of corruption.

[skinster]

The oil for loans deal was cut when oil was $100 a barrel, now the Venezuelans are defaulting even though they're shipments have been increasing. So now China is asset stripping the Venezuelan economy, it's got a multi decade lease on it's main offshore platform and it's taking significant stakes in other operations as well. The kicker is the Venezuelans had to spend a good chunk of their loans on Chinese exports. The deal is a joke, China was the governments only lifeline so it basically cut a really shitty deal with China just for short term survival.

Where did you get this info from?

[Sivad]

Multiple sources. I read all the imperialist financial rags but they seem to be confirming what I'm reading in Caracas Chronicles and what I'm hearing from Venezuelans on reddit and other social media.

[Rancid]

You don't know how right you are. China's been demanding more transparency on how the loans are being spent because Venezuela is such a black hole of corruption.

I didn't know that! Again though not surprised.

I'm not going to say I guessed that because I'm smart. I read a wonderful book called something like "The Dictators Handbook: how bad behavior is almost always good." It's backed by like 20-30 years of research. It spells out all the wonderful ways Dictators, Elites of Democracies, and CEOs conspire to screw over everyone for their personal benefit, and for the benefit of their inner circles. Great read, I strongly recommend it.

One of the main tenants is, you have to stop viewing geopolitics as Allies Versus Enemies, or patriotism, or nationalist, etc. etc. All of those things are convenient fictions to get us to go long with all the dirty shit out leaders do every day. Ultimately, dictators and elected leaders only do what allows them to keep power. nothing else matters, not principles, not your fellow countrymen, nothing. Fuck them all.

There is just tons of research backing this all up. A lot of it is cited in the book.