[Beren]

The robotic quest to obtain more toxic crap you don't need has its philosophical base in the robotic strategizing of people who don't even know (or care) if their plans are genocidal.

I just shared a thought and that's it, but your feelings make me sad indeed. However, I can't sleep at night because I could do so much to save the earth and Palestinian children, but I don't.

[Crantag]

The robotic quest to obtain more toxic crap you don't need has its philosophical base in the robotic strategizing of people who don't even know (or care) if their plans are genocidal.

It is very difficult to create alternatives to substitute for formal finance. Moreover, because of the progress of financialization across all swaths of the economy, formal finance has established a presence everywhere. The proximity of all transactions, either potential or currently actual, are like real estate to High Finance, which it seeks to control and dominate.

There are some opportunities to subvert these financial transactions, but they are difficult to formulate. Building an earthship is one way to subvert a lot of the financial transactions which affect our daily lives, for example. Participating in alternative energy trusts subverts a proportion of the financial transactions associated with financial savings, but such group implements are still inherently subordinate to financial and monetary transactional systems. Starting a log cabin business, where you construct homes using the local materials, and sell the cabins, would subvert some of the transactions, but the monetary relations are still inescapable. Buying tracks of land in the dessert and erecting solar panels in order to sell to the grid is another novel idea which would subvert some transactions, but through the sale of the energy you are still on object of monetary circumstances. However, if you divert some of the electricity for your own use, or for localized industrial use, you would subvert some additional transactions.

All these examples would require a lot of work to actualize, do not really subvert financial transactions but rather subvert only a number of them, and also demand creativity and technical proficiency of the operator. However, they also by subverting financial transaction, could be profitable in so far as they subvert monopolistic financial pricing mechanisms.

[Beren]

Good job @Crantag, Qatz will be impressed!

[Godstud]

This is the economy entering into the Trump economy phase. Trump IS responsible for this downturn. He's had the year of grace and now this is what the start of Trump's economic plan start to operate. Enjoy.

[The Immortal Goon]

The economy booms and busts. If the president had as much control over it as they all claim, then they'd stand up there and explain that a drop was going to happen and it would be temporary and whatnot and let it go.

Obama, Trump, and everyone else are essentially always just guessing. Getting all upset about the economy going up or down during any of them is really like assuming the weather has something to do with with what kind of a job that the president is doing.

[Beren]

The government always has different options to deal with the economy. It's not Trump's fault if the economy is running out of steam, but he has different options to deal with it.

[Potemkin]

It's weird the way that even proponents of the 'free market' seem to believe that whoever happens to be occupying the White House controls the economy. Maybe they think Trump's toupee broadcasts secret thought-control rays at Wall Street or something?

[Godstud]

Of course Trump doesn't affect the economy that much, but it's the same thing when the idiots accuse Obama of destroying the economy. You can't have it both ways.

[Beren]

The Trump era is just beginning actually, however, maybe it wasn't a good idea to introduce pro-cyclic economic policies such as tax cuts, I'd have tried to make a budget surplus instead perhaps. If he needs some ideas as to whether how to do it, he should ask the Clintons for advice.

[Crantag]

Good job @Crantag, Qatz will be impressed!

I would be interested in what he thinks, though.

Those were some ideas that I've been working out for a little while now.

[Crantag]

The stock sell off was imminently triggered by a rise in bond yields, associated with the expectation of rising interest rates, in part in response to the jobs report (that was the unexpected bit which shocked prevailing expectations). Higher interest rates are associated with higher bond yields (but the bonds are also traded, and so this subjects the yields to market mechanisms).

Now the speculators are talking about bond bulls, and talking up how high bond yields might go.

Trouble trouble bond bubble.

Edit: I am thinking the mechanism for this is the prospective ratio between a given spot stock price and bond yields. Rising bond yields will lead to crowds leaving stocks for bonds. The way to get ahead of the curve is to sell stocks at their peak and buy bonds, to take advantage of the high ratio, which is a function of the high stock price. This initial trading puts upward pressure on bonds. It also puts downward pressure on stocks. It was a panic, with a crowd following suit.

I don't know how bond markets are regulated. Maybe some price control mechanism kicked in when the bonds spiked.

[QatzelOk]

I would be interested in what he thinks, though.

Those were some ideas that I've been working out for a little while now.

I loved your "How to save capitalism by investing in alternative frameworks" manifesto.

I can't wait for next October to see how many stockbrokers will join with your revolution.

soundtrack

[Crantag]

I loved your "How to save capitalism by investing in alternative frameworks" manifesto.

I can't wait for next October to see how many stockbrokers will join with your revolution.

soundtrack

I'm not about saving capitalism.

I'm about looking out for myself. I am also personally passively interested in the activities I raised.

I study financialization of workers' lives. It is a new mechanism of exploitation through monopoly finance pricing. One of the only ways to be free is to escape the financial bonds through subverting the financial transactions, but this is very hard to do, and as a practical matter, it is almost impossible to do fully.

Notice, I was talking about individuals' actions, not systemic directions.

But it's also the nature of economics to offend everyone...

[QatzelOk]

I'm not about saving capitalism.

I'm about looking out for myself.

This is like saying you're not trying to save capitalism, you ARE capitalism.

If everyone on earth just "looked out for themself," we would have gone extinct about a thousand years ago. Your very identity is with capitalism, and it's not by attacking a few institutions (from a vantage of selfishness) that anything will change for the positive regarding mankind's (your brothers and sisters) odds of surviving another few generations.

[Crantag]

This is like saying you're not trying to save capitalism, you ARE capitalism.

If everyone on earth just "looked out for themself," we would have gone extinct about a thousand years ago. Your very identity is with capitalism, and it's not by attacking a few institutions (from a vantage of selfishness) that anything will change for the positive regarding mankind's (your brothers and sisters) odds of surviving another few generations.

You have me confused for some mythical avatar you dreamed up I'm afraid.

I'm not hard to find and I'm pretty transparent. But I can't respond to your fantasies which have nothing to do with me.

Unless reading and thinking make me a capitalist.

By the way, it's pretty irresponsible generally for one to not look after themselves. And for what it's worth I personally have almost nothing at all.

[anarchist23]

As of 40 minutes ago!

* U.S. stocks swing wildly, day after plunging

* China stocks have worst day in two years before Lunar new year (dropping 4%)

* Oil prices fall more than 2 pct on output concerns (Updates to show U.S. stocks adding to losses)

NEW YORK, Feb 9 (Reuters) - World stock markets fell on Friday, with major U.S. equity indexes shedding around 1 percent after swinging between positive and negative territory, a day after a plunge that confirmed a correction for the market.

Benchmark Treasury yields fell in volatile trading, though investors may still be wary of holding positions over the weekend.

Concerns about higher bond yields and interest rates spurred recent selling of equities, though the retreat in the market had been long awaited by investors after months of advances.

A rout in U.S. stocks overnight, a slump in Chinese shares and worries over rising borrowing costs and volatility took their toll on equity markets in Europe and Asia as well. A key gauge of global stock indexes was down nearly 1 percent.

On Thursday, the Dow Jones Industrials and S&P 500 indexes slumped more than 10 percent from their Jan. 26 record highs, and volatility that plagued the market all week left investors wondering when the market's recent slump would find a floor.

"This may be a bottoming process," Bucky Hellwig, senior vice president at BB&T Wealth Management in Birmingham, Alabama.

"I'd like to see buying come in late in the day instead of having a selloff like we had yesterday," he said. "Also, if we see some stabilizing in interest rates and bond yields in particular, that would seem to indicate what's going on there has settled down."

Higher yields tend to hurt equities because they increase borrowing costs for companies and ultimately consumers. They also present an alternative to investors who may reallocate some funds to bonds from equities.

On Friday, benchmark 10-year notes last rose 10/32 in price to yield 2.8149 percent, from 2.849 percent late on Thursday.

The Dow Jones Industrial Average fell 278.14 points, or 1.17 percent, to 23,582.32, the S&P 500 lost 22.73 points, or 0.88 percent, to 2,558.27 and the Nasdaq Composite dropped 74.04 points, or 1.09 percent, to 6,703.12.

U.S. DEBT ISSUANCE TO RISE

European shares ended down sharply on the day and fell 5.3 percent for the week, their biggest weekly drop since January 2016.

The pan-European FTSEurofirst 300 index lost 1.66 percent and MSCI's gauge of stocks across the globe shed 1.32 percent.

Emerging market stocks lost 2.10 percent.

Earlier, the Shanghai Composite Index had tumbled as much as 6.0 percent to its lowest since May 2017, and the blue chip CSI300 index dived 6.1 percent.

Chinese equities were hurt by the drop in global shares and by traders closing positions before the Lunar New Year holidays starting next week.

Rising U.S. debt issuance is expected to weigh on bond prices in the coming months.

The U.S. House of Representatives joined the Senate early on Friday in approving a budget bill that raises military and domestic spending by almost $300 billion over the next two years. With no offsets in the form of other spending cuts or new tax revenue, that additional spending will be financed with borrowed money.

In currencies, the dollar clung to its earlier gains against a basket of currencies as Wall Street's major indexes edged up.

The dollar index rose 0.31 percent, with the euro down 0.23 percent to $1.2217.

Oil sank as record-high U.S. crude output added to concerns about a sharp rise in global supplies.

U.S. crude fell 3.06 percent to $59.28 per barrel and Brent was last at $62.96, down 2.85 percent on the day.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/09/reuters ... s-dip.html

[Albert]

Looks like this might be a market crash we are heading into. Hold on to your beer boys.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-43001211
https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... -continues

The thing is, judging now the whole Trump hype did produce a bubble in the market that was bound to burst and level itself out sooner then later. The rising of interest rates was the thing that did it I guess.

[Godstud]

It's not nearly as bad as all that. I've been in contact with the guy who oversees my portfolio, said, "Corrections in the markets are a normal part of investing and generally pass fairly quickly. The recent market run up was overdone, yet no complaints when volatility pushes values higher, but when markets decline concern does appear. I’ve attached a firm article on the events recently, but essentially little to do other than let it pass. Investing longer term makes correction or downturns less problematic.

Typically for our clients, is to buy some good quality companies whose share price has dipped to attractive value and pays a good dividend. The object being to increase your cash flow. Things should settle down in a couple of weeks.".

So, relax.

[Stormsmith]

That's what my broker said, too. She also emailed me a list of potential buy opportunies. I want my hubby to retire early soooo

[Crantag]

The problem is most corrections occur from deflationary pressure. The Fed cuts interest rates.

This is the opposite, triggered by inflationary projections. The response is to raise interest rates, which puts upward pressure on bond yields. Rising bond yields lead to money fleeing stocks.

Buy the dips is what is always said. I wouldn't put a nickel in this market if you gave me a dime. But, that's just me. And I don't have a dog in the fight.

The number runners I hear frequently seem to express a gross ignorance of economics.