Gunman in shooting spree at Florida high school. Many injuries. ...What is wrong in the USA? - Page 19 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14890701
I think it is corrupt political culture and bad values. That is going to be a tough one to change.

People in the USA who are into conservative politics and guns I need them because I hate the government? And the gun and military defense industry. Too powerful.

Trump is a total sellout to the second amendment people with guns are sacred.

It is a bad formula for change.
#14890703
Drlee wrote:On the contrary. My liberal friends want to control assault weapons AND handguns. I believe that handguns should be licensed and that concealed carry permits should be issued only to those who need them.


Well you and your liberal friends may talk about wanting to ban all guns, but the self appointed gun control advocates are nowhere to be found when a 12 year old DACA baby brings a gun to school and shoots up the place. They backed her story that a gun was dropped and shot four students.

I don't recall anyone here on POFO creating a thread to discuss the 12 year old DACA baby school shooting.

Gun control advocates are also nowhere to be found when dozens of blacks are killed during as summer holiday weekend in Chicago or Baltimore.

Why do you think this is?

Drlee wrote:I believe that handguns should be licensed and that concealed carry permits should be issued only to those who need them. I believe that everyone one under 21, who is not a serviceman performing his duty, should be prohibited from possessing a handgun.


How do you think the black market gun trade would be controlled in your gun free utopia where only people who needed guns could have them?

Drlee wrote:I do not need an assault rifle to defend my home.


Well people don't need a lot of things in life. People certainly don't need vehicles with powerful V8 engines just to drive to work, especially when they can go really fast and potentially cause an accident and kill lots of people.

We have also established the The Assault Weapon Myth where in 2012, only 322 people were murdered with any kind of rifle, F.B.I. data shows. And that the numbers have been relatively the same since the assault weapons ban of the 1990's.

Drlee wrote:I am about to go to Walmart. There will be fellow geezers there with concealed handguns on their person. They are not criminals. Nevertheless I feel much less safe knowing that these untrained blowhards are there and armed.


This seems a bit paranoid to me that you assume 1, that shoppers are armed and 2, that they are untrained and three that you are more likely to die in a mass shooting at Walmart than you are to die in a car accident on your way to or from Wallmart.

Perhaps you'd feel safer at a grocery store that is a designated gun free zone?
#14890709
Rancid wrote:I think raising the gun buying age to 21 across the board is a good idea.

I think at the moment, only pistols are 21+, where as rifles, shotguns, etc. are 18+


I'm sort of a 2nd amendment absolutist; however, I think this compromise is fair though not without mixed feelings.

I have a hard time rationalizing the forbidding of an 18 year-old from buying an AR15 when he may be required to fire one at the same age in combat through the activation of conscription via selective service.

If we are going to raise the age to own an AR15 to 21, we should also change the selective-service military age to 21 too.

This will, of course, make 21 the de facto age of adulthood, which seems appropriate given the infantilization of our recent generations.

Likewise, as a second-amendement absolutist, I would be in favor of the legality of full-automatic weapons to the general public; however, given that this currently against the law, I have no problem banning bump-stocks and whatnot as they are clearly an attempt to violate the law as it currently exists (whether I agree with it or not).

If I were a conservative politician I would make the following compromise with libs:

In exchange for concealed carry state reciprocity we will give (1) an expanded background check system which will include the mentally ill and those on the terrorist watch-list, as well as (2) raising of the minimum sports-rifle ownership age to 21 (like it is with pistols), and (3) institute an absolute federal ban of bump-stocks (which even the NRA supports).

I would also push to create an agency like the TSA to regulate and universalize security in all public schools by Federal funding through the Homeland Security and National Defense budgets.

Everybody gets what they want, gun-owners will not see much difference in their daily lives and gun-prices, and the schools will be invariably safer.

I'm curious what the POFO lefties think though.....my suggestion is probably racist somehow... :lol:
#14890746
Suntzu wrote:Can't see a constitution avenue for the federal government to get involved in public education.


It wouldn't be an education matter, it would be a national security matter.
#14890753
Victoribus Spolia wrote:It wouldn't be an education matter, it would be a national security matter.


The federal government is already involved in so many extra constitutional activities, I guess one more couldn't hurt.

In Texas we have already solved the problem by allowing concealed carry for teachers.

One of the problems with school security is that often the shooter is one of the students. Most of the time the weapon is a handgun.
#14890757
Suntzu wrote:The federal government is already involved in so many extra constitutional activities, I guess one more couldn't hurt.

In Texas we have already solved the problem by allowing concealed carry for teachers.

One of the problems with school security is that often the shooter is one of the students. Most of the time the weapon is a handgun.


I agree with everything you said, as I said earlier, I consider myself an absolutist on the right to bear arms, but if I had to engage in "politiking" to get something done, I consider a BIG win in exchange for something "small" as a win and I think my compromise would accomplish this.

I would get concealed carry reciprocity across state-lines (which is HUGE) in exchange for banning bump stocks (Supported by NRA anyway), 21 to own an AR (Same as handguns), and expanded background checks for nutjobs and terrorists (big whoop) [all small-stuff].

PLUS, there is a good chance the Supreme Court would overturn some of these three compromises anyway and would NEVER strike down state reciprocity for a perceived constitutional right, especially after the reciprocity requirement they made on Gay Marriage and with the fact that the Supreme Court has been strong on gun rights over awhile now.

As far as a new school-security-agency violating states right? Like I said, securing schools could be argued as a national security and not an educational matter and therefore would fall under Federal jurisdiction rather than state jurisdiction.

Furthermore, it is not in the interest of gun rights advocates for schools to remain sitting ducks while airports, banks, etc., have armed security. The more school shootings occur, the more an emotional public will make inroads against the 2nd amendment. Thus, my point is that conservatives need to get ahead of this and make what are likely temporary compromises to gain greater long-term victories and secure schools.

My suggestion would accomplish all of this.
#14890768
I am certain that most people do not care about the causes of school shootings. They would rather debate gun control.

While I support many of the reasons behind gun control, I also have pragmatic reasons for supporting the other side.

I think it would be more useful to focus on why a young man would decide that entering a school and shooting his classmates would be a good idea.
#14890770
Pants-of-dog wrote:I think it would be more useful to focus on why a young man would decide that entering a school and shooting his classmates would be a good idea.


Well.....do you have a theory you would like to contribute?
#14890782
Tainari88 wrote:No, Stormsmith, I raised my adopted son a Black teenager. I had to experience how black males are treated by law enforcement in this country. I underestimated how bad the racism is. It is horrifically bad. I had to experience how they treat Latinos like my husband and I. I have to be harsh Stormsmith. It is based on my experience and on the experience of many people in the Latin and Black communities over many, many decades.

The USA political system is totally completely ROTTEN to the core. It only responds to people with MONEY from lobbyists from wealthy donors like corporations, gun manufacturing and defense contractors, and other cushy elitist people with no scruples about pushing bad public policy to line their pockets. I have no illusions about the USA making progress. It has not. IT SUCKS!

I am a Puerto Rican international socialist. Not a liberal. ;)


I'm sorry if I overlooked you on TLTE I tend to read it over morning coffee, not my best time. I am also a socialist.

We all have a moral imperative to leave the world better than we entered it. The US has made progress: southern blacks are treated far better today then they were before Bobby Kennedy and LBJ. Women can chose to have a career, and more areas that had been blocked are open. Gays are more respectfully treated and can marry, and so on. Vaccines are saving lives. AIDS is not a death sentence etc.

Your blanket condemnation of America/Americans was harsh, lumping the decent people in with corrupt, and ignorIng the good America/americans do. I'm sure you know what Puerto Rico's murder rate is, but you always write so lovingly on Puerto Rico, and don't lump the decent Puerto Ricans in with the criminals.


Pants of Dog

Are you looking for a profile of a high school aged mass murderer?
#14890787
@Stormsmith

Yes, that would be a useful beginning. I think Wellsy poitned out that guns are a necessary condition, but not necessarily a cause of these kinds of shootings. My friends and family in the US, for example, have just as much access to guns as Cruz, and are also Latino, but are not about to go and do this kind of stuff.

So it makes me wonder what does make someone do this, and how we can address that instead of easily circumvented gun laws.
#14890799
Victoribus Spolia wrote:I agree with everything you said, as I said earlier, I consider myself an absolutist on the right to bear arms, but if I had to engage in "politiking" to get something done, I consider a BIG win in exchange for something "small" as a win and I think my compromise would accomplish this.

I would get concealed carry reciprocity across state-lines (which is HUGE) in exchange for banning bump stocks (Supported by NRA anyway), 21 to own an AR (Same as handguns), and expanded background checks for nutjobs and terrorists (big whoop) [all small-stuff].

PLUS, there is a good chance the Supreme Court would overturn some of these three compromises anyway and would NEVER strike down state reciprocity for a perceived constitutional right, especially after the reciprocity requirement they made on Gay Marriage and with the fact that the Supreme Court has been strong on gun rights over awhile now.

As far as a new school-security-agency violating states right? Like I said, securing schools could be argued as a national security and not an educational matter and therefore would fall under Federal jurisdiction rather than state jurisdiction.

Furthermore, it is not in the interest of gun rights advocates for schools to remain sitting ducks while airports, banks, etc., have armed security. The more school shootings occur, the more an emotional public will make inroads against the 2nd amendment. Thus, my point is that conservatives need to get ahead of this and make what are likely temporary compromises to gain greater long-term victories and secure schools.

My suggestion would accomplish all of this.



How about limiting the magazine/clip size to 8 rounds and outlawing the sale/manufacture/possession of any magazines/clips that hold a greater capacity?
#14890800
It will not solve the problem, as you can mimic the effect of a bumpstock, with a bandolier or gun strap. Semi-automatic rifles are the problem. They are an issue that I am sure will not be addressed.

Note: I am not anti-gun. I am pro-gun. Gun controls are necessary, though, and self-defense is not what semi-automatic rifles are for.
#14890801
W
ell you and your liberal friends may talk about wanting to ban all guns, but the self appointed gun control advocates are nowhere to be found when a 12 year old DACA baby brings a gun to school and shoots up the place. They backed her story that a gun was dropped and shot four students.


What a stupid comment. Utterly stupid ideas. Can you show me anywhere that I have mentioned I wanted to "ban all guns"? Pay attention or be quiet.

I don't recall anyone here on POFO creating a thread to discuss the 12 year old DACA baby school shooting.


Nor do I. Start a thread. Or leave your racism elsewhere.

Gun control advocates are also nowhere to be found when dozens of blacks are killed during as summer holiday weekend in Chicago or Baltimore.


Really? I think you are wrong. We want to get illegal guns off the street. It is conservatives that are letting our inner cities be overrun with inappropriate weapons.

Why do you think this is?

Drlee wrote:
I believe that handguns should be licensed and that concealed carry permits should be issued only to those who need them. I believe that everyone one under 21, who is not a serviceman performing his duty, should be prohibited from possessing a handgun.



How do you think the black market gun trade would be controlled in your gun free utopia where only people who needed guns could have them?


I honestly think you have a reading problem. As your mother to read my posts to you. I have never advocated a "gun free utopia". The only time I advocated for the requirement to show "need" is when we are allowing concealed carry.




Well people don't need a lot of things in life. People certainly don't need vehicles with powerful V8 engines just to drive to work, especially when they can go really fast and potentially cause an accident and kill lots of people.


Silly. Just silly.

We have also established the The Assault Weapon Myth where in 2012, only 322 people were murdered with any kind of rifle, F.B.I. data shows. And that the numbers have been relatively the same since the assault weapons ban of the 1990's.


Tell that to the parents of the 17 killed last week or the victims in Las Vegas. I'm sure they will feel reassured.

Perhaps you'd feel safer at a grocery store that is a designated gun free zone?


In Arizona a store may prohibit carrying firearms in its property. I prefer this. I know it won't stop a criminal. It might stop me from being killed by an 80 year old shithead with a pistol trying to stop a robbery. Or mistaking what is going on and shooting an innocent person.

And to the utterly stupid people who advocate arming teachers. Do you really think a teacher with a concealable weapon can defend against an assault rifle. Think again. Dead teacher and more dead kids.
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