[4cal]

About Social Media...

Get on Twitter and do a search for any pro-right hashtag. Any one. #NFLboycott comes to mind. #oscarboycott was another I tried.

Look at the stream of gibberish on there and then click on one of the user-names of the gibberish.

Almost everyone I tried was a bot account devoted to the typical right wing garbage you'd suspect.

[colliric]

You don't think that FOX would have a newspaper in every large town parroting the absolute garbage that it's idiot viewers consume?

Rupert does have a paper in every large town....

You seem to forget Fox is towing the News Corp line, not the other way around.

He does have papers pretty much everywhere....

[colliric]

Almost everyone I tried was a bot account devoted to the typical right wing garbage you'd suspect.

You have no understanding of what a Bot actually is if you say that....

Those individuals were like minded Republicans, not Bot.

A Bot account is an automatically programmed account run by a bit of software. It is programmed to automatically Post to social media.

Similar to an old school telephone autodialer which would automatically ring people and playback a recorded message to them.

[4cal]

You have no understanding of what a Bot actually is if you say that....

Those individuals were like minded Republicans, not Bot.

A Bot account is an automatically programmed account run by a bit of software. It is programmed to automatically Post to social media.

Similar to an old school telephone autodialer which would automatically ring people and playback a recorded message to them.

To the surprise of absolutely nobody, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Or do you think the same mindless losers are still pissed about the week 4 antics of NFL players so much that 6 weeks after the season, they are still posting about boycotting a product that won't be around until September?

Oh yeah, you think professional wresting is real. You'd believe ANYTHING.

[colliric]

Then answer this question please...

What is 'Bot' short for?

And what does that full word imply.

If an account has an actual human being sitting at a computer making every post personally then it is not a bot no matter how much that person is repeating or towing party lines. Regardless of what you believe a Robot is in your fantasy dreams where human beings who vote Republican must be all robots.

[4cal]

Then answer this question please...

What is 'Bot' short for?

And what does that full word imply.

I imagine "robot" and it is just some body clever enough (or enough of a loser) to try to create an aura of public outrage that simply does not exist.

[Sivad]

Well, TIG--who purports to be a communist--makes that humorous by appearing to do the deep state's dirty work for them while denying their existence.

TIG attempts to debunk the deep state conspiracy theory by linking to articles that say there is definitely hostility and kickback from the "administrative state" against Trump. When even establishment propaganda organs like The New York Times are voicing concerns about an emerging US deep state the obtuse denial from people like TIG is just downright comical.

Yes, there is a reason for YouTube censorship. The deep state is likely paying them off to shut down their critics.

Well we know for a fact that the ties between Google and the CIA are long-running and deep so it's no surprise they'd be censoring criticism of the deep state.

[Drlee]

What is interesting about the NYT article is the notion that the deep state seems to be emerging because bureaucrats and department leaders have been denied their "rightful" place in the decision making process.

Though it is common for Americans to imagine one leader in the person of the president, that is not how government actually works. In comes someone like this crop of republicans (Trump first and foremost because he is the only republican who matters right now) and the attempt to disassemble government functions that have been going on for decades. Functions that these bureaucrats honestly believe are in the best interest of the country.

If there is a developing "deep state" it is because these government officials see that the country is being deeply damaged. It is.

I offer as an example the head of the NSA testifying to congress that the administration is doing nothing about the Russian meddling and the congress doing nothing about that. Is this little short of treason?

Thank God for the people who are leaking information and standing up to this destructive behavior on the part of the administration and congress. Perhaps, if we are lucky, they can keep their finger in the dyke until the people wake up and act. I am not hopeful though.

What is happening to my country is deeply disturbing and I can't even write to my congresswoman about it. She is completely sold out to Trump as indeed are all of the republicans.

The problem is not censorship of a complete idiot like Jones. The problem is the censorship of government officials who have been protecting us from everything from global warming to polluted water. From North Korea to Russia. These protections are being silenced. If you want to be concerned about censorship how about condemning an administration which orders the CDC not to talk about an epidemic of gun violence or an intelligence apparatus that can't talk about Russia. These people are not the "deep state". They are patriots.

[Sivad]

What is interesting about the NYT article is the notion that the deep state seems to be emerging because bureaucrats and department leaders have been denied their "rightful" place in the decision making process.

They don't have a right to decide anything, their role is to advise and assist the elected government in whatever it decides. You do understand that this is a democracy, right? It's not a bureaucratic technocracy, these agencies report to the executive and not the other way around.

Though it is common for Americans to imagine one leader in the person of the president, that is not how government actually works. In comes someone like this crop of republicans (Trump first and foremost because he is the only republican who matters right now) and the attempt to disassemble government functions that have been going on for decades. Functions that these bureaucrats honestly believe are in the best interest of the country.

Democracy and the rule of law are in the best interest of the country. If a bunch of unelected bureaucrats don't like the deliverances of democracy then tough shit. They have no right to undermine the executive because the current duly elected president is threatening their schemes and ambitions.

[Drlee]

They don't have a right to decide anything, their role is to advise and assist the elected government in whatever it decides. You do understand that this is a democracy, right? It's not a bureaucratic technocracy, these agencies report to the executive and not the other way around.

Actually you are the one who ought to be understanding government a bit better. Many government officials make policy decisions everyday, authorized by the laws governing their agencies. The current government is not seeing their advice and acting contrary to the law very frequently. Note the number of cases Trump has lost in court.

Democracy and the rule of law are in the best interest of the country. If a bunch of unelected bureaucrats don't like the deliverances of democracy then tough shit. They have no right to undermine the executive because the current duly elected president is threatening their schemes and ambitions.

I disagree again. When they are illegally ordered to be silent, particularly in violation of the laws authorizing their organizations and positions, they ought to speak out. I also reject that they necessarily ought to do this in the public square. If the organization that the people are getting is the truth and it does not compromise national security, the fact that it is inconvenient to the president is irrelevant. We are supposed to be an open society. Once that ends, the rest of it is just nonsense. In the end, the right of the people to have the information they need to make decisions about how they vote, is paramount.

[The Immortal Goon]

TIG attempts to debunk the deep state conspiracy theory by linking to articles that say there is definitely hostility and kickback from the "administrative state" against Trump. When even establishment propaganda organs like The New York Times are voicing concerns about an emerging US deep state the obtuse denial from people like TIG is just downright comical.

I'm not sure what article that you're referencing, but I will say that--As DrLee pointed out--nobody denies that administrative positions exist.

This is hardly the kind of theory Trumpers are putting forward into the nature of the Deep State.

Well we know for a fact that the ties between Google and the CIA are long-running and deep so it's no surprise they'd be censoring criticism of the deep state.

Sure. The CIA does do that kind of thing. Which is why I brought it up.

Spinning this into some anti-Trump conspiracy theory involving Ellen DeGeneres (as the Trumps themselves claim) or any of the other nutty things Fox News pushes is not, however, valid.

But Blackjack already broke the news that I'm part of the Deep State conspiracy

[noir]

Not youtube but twitter. Tommy Robinson just returned from another week long banning in twitter. They constantly harresing him.

[Drlee]

But Blackjack already broke the news that I'm part of the Deep State conspiracy

Could I trouble you for a stock tip?

[Sivad]

I'm not sure what article that you're referencing, but I will say that--As DrLee pointed out--nobody denies that administrative positions exist.

This is hardly the kind of theory Trumpers are putting forward into the nature of the Deep State.

Yeah but that's just a bullshit straw man that has nothing to do with what serious academics and journalists are referring to as the deep state. There are illicit power structures within the state apparatus that do routinely engage in improper, unethical, and illegal activities to advance various political agendas. That's not controversial, it's well established. Conflating the two is dense at best but could also be viewed as a dishonest attempt to maintain the retarded and now defunct pseudoskeptic dogma that "conspiracies aren't real".

[Drlee]

This conspiracy is not real. It is a special-snowflake reaction to a situation that has been common since governments were first established. This entire kerfuffle is based upon the outrageous notion that public servants do not have a point of view, should not have, and would never act on it if they did.

History is rife with examples of governments (like our current one) who have ignored the pleadings of their agents and bureaucrats only to deeply regret it later.

So someone in NOAO possesses scientific knowledge that global warming is worse than we imagined and that the continuing to ignore the problem will bring dire consequences to the nation. But when this scientist goes against instructions from the sold-out republican oligarch who is the temporary occupants of the white house and lobbies to save his nation from disaster he is all of a sudden some evil thing called the "deep state".

The very term is bullshit. It is "crooked Hillary", "Big Tobacco" and "liberal media" and now "deep state". The fact that some reporters and academics have embraced the term do not grant it legitimacy.

Trump is facing the challenges he and Fox news childishly whine about because he is behaving in a way that is at once illegal and where not specifically illegal definitely bad for the future of the country. That a large collection of obviously unintelligent people find it fun to follow him in no way excuses his outrageous behavior.

I just had dinner with some very educated Canadians. What I got from them was not outrage or even scorn. I got pity.

I am almost to the point that I feel I am lowering myself to even bother to debate this shit anymore. Trump supporters are unintelligent people with the exception of the few who are there for purely avaricious reasons.

So know this. If I am arguing with a Trump supporter I have already come to the conclusion that I am arguing with a deeply stupid person.

[The Immortal Goon]

Yeah but that's just a bullshit straw man that has nothing to do with what serious academics and journalists are referring to as the deep state. There are illicit power structures within the state apparatus that do routinely engage in improper, unethical, and illegal activities to advance various political agendas.

You're balancing two different things here. First, as Drlee points out again, the existence of civil servants is obviously not a conspiracy theory.

But your "serious academics and journalist" example is the Lobster. Which while not illegitimate itself, traffics exclusively in conspiracy theories.

Meanwhile, the Guardian, Politico, Newsweek, CNN, the New York Times, and virtually any other remotely credible sources has dismissed the "Deep State" conspiracy theory as foolishness.

So far as academics are concerned, I can only give a cursory view on JSTOR, unless you have something better to point in my direction.

It seems that the whole idea originates from Turkey, something inherited from the Ottoman Empire's fear of recently converted Jews not being that fully converted to Islam (Donmehs).

One might add that these authors [of such views] make the unbelievable believable and palatable for their readers. Instead of explicitly stating crude, anti-Semitic views, Yalcin and Kucuk enable the reader, "after having been bombarded with literally hundreds of names and a web of family connections, with numerous opinions and analysis that are replete with not-so-subtle hints and insinuations of Donme and Jewish conspiring, disloyalty and duplicity, to arrive at his or her own conclusions." Whether the author explicitly labels Erdogan a Jew (Poyraz), or claims that Turkey's leaders from 1960 to 2002 (Kucuk) or 1923 to 1960 were Done (Yalcin), in the face of hundreds of pages of leading information, it is practically certain that the conclusion reached by the Turkish reader will be that "the Donmes run the Turkish Republic."

If their form is the first explanation for their widespread acceptance, then the context in which their authors are writing is the second. The "particular cultural and social conditions" Bali notes that lay the groundwork for publications on the Donme becoming best-sellers among secularists in the new millennium includes the rise of Islamists to power; the popularity of conspiracy theories about unelected power brokers, or a "deep state" within Turkey controlling its politics; belief that a "white" Turkish elite dominates political, social, economic, and cultural life; acceptance of anti-American, anti-Zionist, and anti-Jewish sentiment; and beliefs that Israel is behind the establishment of a Kurdish state. The extraordinary events at the start of the new millennium—the attack on the Twin Towers, the US invasion and occupation of Iraq, deteriorating relations between the United States and Turkey, anti-Americanism reaching the extent that less than 10 percent of those polled had a favorable view of the United States, ruptured relations between Turkey and Israel, a renewed Kurdish rebellion in Turkey and the creation of an autonomous Kurdish province in Iraq, the ever worsening, ever deadlier Israeli repression of Palestinians, and financial crises in Turkey—all served to radicalize public discourse.

This was heavily promoted recently in the form of the Ergenekon, which is supposedly a secular cabal within the Turkish state.

The most covered story in Turkish media, Ergenekon refers to a network of retired and active military leaders, media personalities and academicians who are alleged to have masterminded a decades-long effort to maintain the dominance of Turkey's traditional state class elite. While few doubt Ergenekon's existence, the ongoing trial of over 200 suspects is met with both praise and criticism in mainstream Turkish news. In one of few detailed studies of the Ergenekon case, a long-time observer of Turkish politics contended that, in addition to uncovering a startling pattern of social manipulation perpetrated by Turkey's "deep state," the Ergenekon investigation also sheds light on a broad effort of the AKP to purge its opposition.

That's not controversial, it's well established. Conflating the two is dense at best but could also be viewed as a dishonest attempt to maintain the retarded and now defunct pseudoskeptic dogma that "conspiracies aren't real".[/quote]

This appears to have been picked up by neighboring states:

One of the most obvious examples is given by the themes that appear in different conspiracy narratives in Russia, Central Asia, and Georgia. All three of the articles highlight the presence of what Heathershaw has labelled narratives of "the deep state" and foreign threat," which in post-soviet space outside Russia should be read as complimentary rather than contrasting storylines...in conjunction with the personalization of this power—a small group or network of people who are able to control vastly complex situations to achieve exactly wthe outcome they desire. This chimes with points that Heathershaw highlights in his discussion of conspiracy theories about the "deep state" and Russian influence in Tajikistan: that the most successful conspiracy narratives seem to be those that resonate with existing political ideas and identities. Conspiracy narratives in the former Soviet Union, in spite of their seemingly radical and subversive character, therefore tend to confirm and legitimize the existing order.

...[for example] A widely circulated opposition video spoof during the 2012 presidential campaign, showing Putin behind bars accused of crimes against the Russian people, also makes reference to one of the most popular Russian conspiracy theories about the "deep state"—that he was directly responsible for the Moscow apartment bombings. The pervasiveness of conspiracy theories and the way they operate openly on and across all levels of society, up to the state power networks themselves (as opposed to fringe groups which find themselves via new media as in the case in the United States), conforms that they constitute an important and hitherto neglected area of research.

Now, this all being said, this is (again) not to say that there is no such thing as a civil servant or even a military-industrial complex. One may argue that this is splitting hairs, but the difference is that a civil servant—even a group of them—does not a conspiracy for direction make. They may drag their feet, but it is hardly a cabal of the kind that the "deep state" connotes.

Similarly, the military-industrial complex is far more of a systematic relationship of various capitalist and governmental interests than one of a secret cabal of ideological-motivated mustache-twirling villains in a smokey room.

This is the main difference, I suppose, in conspiracy theories on the left and on the right. The left will usually look for a system. Say, the fact that weapons manufacturers have an interest in the US having a non-stop war and politicians controlling US policy have an interest in getting a portion of sales from weapons manufacturers in the form of donations.

The right tends to think that a bunch of (((others))) are in a room, with some ideological propaganda that they're trying to force into reality. The former is measurable, the latter is just conjecture without providing any real rhyme or reason for why and how this is happening.

[blackjack21]

TIG attempts to debunk the deep state conspiracy theory by linking to articles that say there is definitely hostility and kickback from the "administrative state" against Trump. When even establishment propaganda organs like The New York Times are voicing concerns about an emerging US deep state the obtuse denial from people like TIG is just downright comical.

He also calls obviously biased news (propaganda) outlets "credible."

Well we know for a fact that the ties between Google and the CIA are long-running and deep so it's no surprise they'd be censoring criticism of the deep state.

It may be backfiring already. Different company, but: Chances are you’re spending 24% less time on Facebook

I have no problem posting political views here, trolling, providing feedback or critiques or whatever. I never do it on Facebook, because it's a place where I stay in touch with friends. The political trolling that goes on there has ruined the platform for me, so I'm guessing I spend less than half the time I used to spend there.

What is interesting about the NYT article is the notion that the deep state seems to be emerging because bureaucrats and department leaders have been denied their "rightful" place in the decision making process.

Bureaucrats have no rights to create policy under the constitution. They must answer to elected authorities.

If there is a developing "deep state" it is because these government officials see that the country is being deeply damaged. It is.

That's putting a spin on it that is utterly missing the point. The reason Trump got elected in the first place is that the deep state precedes him. Trying to use Trump as a justification for the deep state is a pyschic defense against why your faction lost in the first place.

I offer as an example the head of the NSA testifying to congress that the administration is doing nothing about the Russian meddling and the congress doing nothing about that. Is this little short of treason?

Given Putin's disdain for homosexual culture, it probably feels like treason to the LGBTQ community. However, the president sets foreign policy and Congress has the power to declare war. Since neither of them are interested in war with Russia and Russia isn't making war on the United States, this amounts to nothing more than histrionics from the 2016 election's losers.

Thank God for the people who are leaking information and standing up to this destructive behavior on the part of the administration and congress.

I see you are now on the side of the criminals.

If you want to be concerned about censorship how about condemning an administration which orders the CDC not to talk about an epidemic of gun violence

Guns are not a disease. It's a malfeasance of office to misuse public funds to further the private political beliefs of CDC administrators.

Note the number of cases Trump has lost in court.

Do you mean at the Supreme Court or at the district level in the 9th Circuit?

When they are illegally ordered to be silent, particularly in violation of the laws authorizing their organizations and positions, they ought to speak out.

Where have they been "illegally ordered"?

If the organization that the people are getting is the truth and it does not compromise national security, the fact that it is inconvenient to the president is irrelevant.

It's relevant if they are insubordinate. They should be fired if they are insubordinate.

We are supposed to be an open society.

George Soros is not a founding father of the United States.

But Blackjack already broke the news that I'm part of the Deep State conspiracy

For a self-styled communist, you are the most ardent defender of non-democratic capitalism here. Don't you find that a bit strange?

Trump is facing the challenges he and Fox news childishly whine about because he is behaving in a way that is at once illegal and where not specifically illegal definitely bad for the future of the country.

Illegal by what set of laws? Have you reported this to Robert Mueller yet?

I just had dinner with some very educated Canadians. What I got from them was not outrage or even scorn. I got pity.

Oh brother... Like we should be envious of Canada? We just overthrew hereditary power here in the US. Yet, the Royalist Drlee thinks we should be impressed with Canadians who make their prime minister the son of a previous prime minister. I'll bet you weren't waxing about the wonders of George W. Bush when he was president...

First, as Drlee points out again, the existence of civil servants is obviously not a conspiracy theory.

A conspiracy is just two or more people taking actions in furtherance of an objective. It's definitely a conspiracy. Creating laws is a conspiracy. It's just not a criminal conspiracy.

Meanwhile, the Guardian, Politico, Newsweek, CNN, the New York Times, and virtually any other remotely credible sources

Bwhahahahaha... maybe the Guardian gets some kudos for covering Wikileaks. The rest of them are clearly pushing establishment propaganda.

[The Immortal Goon]

For a self-styled communist, you are the most ardent defender of non-democratic capitalism here. Don't you find that a bit strange?

I have already admitted that your conspiracy theory was correct and that Ellen DeGeneres is my spy-master and I'm part of an incredibly powerful cabal that runs the world.

And besides, who wouldn't believe some guy on the internet that never uses citations, links, or sources and accuses everyone of being part of a conspiracy against him? You got me.

A conspiracy is just two or more people taking actions in furtherance of an objective. It's definitely a conspiracy. Creating laws is a conspiracy. It's just not a criminal conspiracy.

Oh, creating multiple false flag operation and running the entire world's media in order to hurt your feelings takes more than two people.

Bwhahahahaha... maybe the Guardian gets some kudos for covering Wikileaks. The rest of them are clearly pushing establishment propaganda.

[SolarCross]

For a self-styled communist, you are the most ardent defender of non-democratic capitalism here. Don't you find that a bit strange?

Mikhail Bakunin wouldn't find that strange at all.

This whole Jewish world, comprising a single exploiting sect, a kind of blood sucking people, a kind of organic destructive collective parasite, going beyond not only the frontiers of states, but of political opinion, this world is now, at least for the most part, at the disposal of Marx on the one hand, and of Rothschild on the other... This may seem strange. What can there be in common between socialism and a leading bank? The point is that authoritarian socialism, Marxist communism, demands a strong centralisation of the state. And where there is centralisation of the state, there must necessarily be a central bank, and where such a bank exists, the parasitic Jewish nation, speculating with the Labour of the people, will be found.

-Mikhail Bakunin

Ultimately communists want to sit like sultans over the rest of us with the rest of us as their slaves, that is what collectivisation is all about.

[Pants-of-dog]

If we are going to discuss who believes in delusional conspiracies, please note that this thread is ostensibly about a conspiracy to silence a conservative pundit.

Also, please note that the alleged censorship never occurred.