[Victoribus Spolia]

Kids can't drive cars therefore cities built around cars are not kid friendly.

Technically though, most American cities (contra European cities) were built/heavily expanded around the automobile, most accelerating around the post-war era (1950s), and yet free-range parenting did not become an issue until the last 25 years.

It seems that for a very long time, free-ranging was acceptable in spite of cities being oriented towards automotive transportation (not kid-friendly). So what gives?

Its not the cars or the cities built around them. The issue is that people have changed at a qualitative level and their sense of community has eroded dramatically in the last 25-40 years.

[One Degree]

Would you be embarrassed to call your neighbors and ask if they have seen your kids?
It use to be common.

Edit: cell phones have allowed many parents to loosen up.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Would you be embarrassed to call your neighbors and ask if they have seen your kids?
It use to be common.

I would be terrified.....that is the difference between the present era and bygone eras. If I called my neighbors over something like that, I know they would write that incident down as ammo to use in calling CPS.

Same thing with illness or poison-control circumstances.

If, lets say, your child got into the medicine cabinet and ate a carton of Tums.....(which won't really hurt them BTW), parents should always be worried about calling doctors etc., because your presumed guilty until proven innocent.

The general theory becomes this: "If you child got hurt you must not have been watching, and if you were not watching, you were being negligent, and if you were being negligent, you are criminal, and if you are criminal, you don't have a right to your kids."

[QatzelOk]

Did TV and Cars cause social rot or are they a result of social rot?

The "current social rot" I'm talking about, is American's loss of social capital - community- that which gives us a reason to live.

This disappeared just after car companies (mafia) bribed governments to destroy mass transit, bike infrastructure, and inner-city housing, to replace them with TV-addicted boxes scattered all over the ruined natural environment. The result is a tragedy that is playing out as a series of environmental and social catastrophes, the most pertinent being the loss of any kind of citizenship or community.

You won't get that back with incense, holy water, and "lake of fire!!!" sermons. You need to start walking, cycling, posting.php?mode=edit&f=42&p=14908624taking transit, and living closer to other people - both physically closer and in closer cooperation. Otherwise, the rot will continue to worsen. Religion is a patch, but the fabric of American society is just patches strewn together already. Another patch will accomplish nothing in the long term.

Fairytales have lost their social currency.

... free-range parenting did not become an issue until the last 25 years.

This is simply false. The urban playground (a prison for chidren to interact with adult-designed toys in) came out in the 1950s. Lots of laws were made to keep children off of streets, where they used to play unattended in that decade as well. Road widening projects since the 50s virtually NEVER consider the free movement of children. All of this is intentional. Cars require sedentary, home-imprisoned children to dominate our lives.

[Rancid]

I for one want to move to Utah now.

No you don't.

[Victoribus Spolia]

The "current social rot" I'm talking about, is American's loss of social capital - community - that which gives us a reason to live.

This disappeared just after car companies (mafia) bribed governments to destroy mass transit, bike infrastructure, and inner-city housing, to replace them with TV-addicted boxes scattered all over the ruined natural environment. The result is a tragedy that is playing out as a series of environmental and social catastrophes, the most pertinent being the loss of any kind of citizenship or community.

You won't get that back with incense, holy water, and "lake of fire!!!" sermons. You need to start walking, cycling, taking transit, and living closer to other people - both physically closer and in closer cooperation. Otherwise, the rot will continue to worsen. Religion is a patch, but the fabric of American society is just patches strewn together already. Another patch will accomplish nothing in the long term.

Fairytales have lost their social currency.

This doesn't really answer my question.

Did cars and televisions destroy the community, or did a preexisting decline in the community and social cohesion further facilitate the advent and popularity of television and automobiles?

Obviously, the Amish didn't buy into either, why did anyone else? If there wasn't a demand, a desire for instant-gratification, then on what basis could the television and the automobile been successful?

If people found such items repugnant because of their own value systems, the promotion of such things would have been pointless.

You won't get that back with incense, holy water, and "lake of fire!!!" sermons.

You bringing up religion is sort of a red-herring at this point.

[QatzelOk]

Sorry, Vic, but I edited my latest post above to include a useful (for you) link, as well as a refutation of another weak point you tried to make.

[Victoribus Spolia]

Sorry, Vic, but I edited my latest post above to include a useful (for you) link, as well as a refutation of another weak point you tried to make.

i'll address it below.

This is simply false. The urban playground (a prison for chidren to interact with adult-designed toys in) came out in the 1950s. Lots of laws were made to keep children off of streets, where they used to play unattended in that decade as well. Road widening projects since the 50s virtually NEVER consider the free movement of children. All of this is intentional. Cars require sedentary, home-imprisoned children to dominate our lives.

Technically, you already conceded that the 1980s were better when you accepted the point but continued arguing the reason was still because there was not as many cars and tvs yet

Furthermore, as has been discussed here and elsewhere, there are a plethora of people who can recall in 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, and early 90s, where children being able to travel unattended around cities, the suburbs, or the countryside was not something you had to fear being reported over as a parent.

Something changed in recent time that states have felt the need to offer protections for the free-ranging minority.

You claim that it is cars and televisions, but your reasoning seems sloppy.

It seems like post-hoc conclusion that was reached rather hastily and one has to wonder whether you have the relationship backwards.

I have been pressing you on this, and you have refused to explain yourself.

[QatzelOk]

My point, Vic, is that the ruination of childhood was a long process that started with civilization.

But this destruction of instinctive education and socialization get really hammered in the 20th Century by the car, and by the addiction to mass media brainwashing that followed the car-caused move to socially-dead suburbia.

Most of North America is now some variation of socially-dead suburbia. And kids have almost completely stopped playing, their parents having been the 2nd or 3rd generation of clueless suburban damage.

[Lightman]

"Childhood" as such did not exist before civilization. "Childhood" as a distinct phase of social life, free of care and labor, dates back to the 19th century.

[Decky]

My granddad was working from the age of 14 and so was pretty much every working class person in Birmingham during his generation.

[skinster]

I had a paper-round at 14 and started working at the Blues and Villa football grounds at 16.
#WaitingToRetire

[Decky]

Both blues and villa tut tut. I assume blues were better to work for?

[skinster]

It was closer, so yes.

[Decky]

Not being in Aston is a bonus for absolutely anything.

[AFAIK]

I agree with VS. Cars and TV exacerbate the problem but aren't the initial cause.

Do you have any direct experience of people calling the cops on unaccompanied children? I haven't heard of this happening in the UK but sometimes people call the cops when they see an adult with a child because, in their mind, the only reason an adult would spend time with a child is if they're a pedophile.

[One Degree]

I agree with VS. Cars and TV exacerbate the problem but aren't the initial cause.

Do you have any direct experience of people calling the cops on unaccompanied children? I haven't heard of this happening in the UK but sometimes people call the cops when they see an adult with a child because, in their mind, the only reason an adult would spend time with a child is if they're a pedophile.

I am not going to try to find the stories, but there are often news stories about this. Obviously, they usually have some merit or they would not make the news. Some of them are questionable enough that I have to wonder how often it happens that is not news worthy.So, for me, it is speculation but reasonable speculation.
Also, if I saw a young child alone in my neighborhood, I would consider it suspicious because of it’s unusualness today. So, reporting it makes sense today when it did not yesteryear.

[QatzelOk]

"Childhood" as such did not exist before civilization. "Childhood" as a distinct phase of social life, free of care and labor, dates back to the 19th century.

Yes, but I didn't put this in quotes.

Growing up at a natural speed according to instincts... certainly DID exist.

Now, we grow up according to "words" and "texts," rather than being able to grow up instinctively. Any effort to recapture some "golden period" of civilization is silly. Civilization has always sucked for most people, especially children, especially now.

The freedom to spend summer days playing FPS games alone in a suburban basement...

Even Victor's "pining" for free-range parenting is just some text-idolatry disguised as parental concern. "Here's a novel expression for the board - free range parenting. I want some! For my babies!!"

What other texts do you "want?"