North and South Korea vow to end the Korean War in historic accord - Page 9 - Politics Forum.org | PoFo

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#14914347
Kaiserschmarrn wrote:Europe being freed from American imperialism? Don't make me laugh please. This is even worse than the somewhat cute American founding myth of their fight against British tyranny. It seems that victimhood culture is truly everywhere today.

I welcome Europe becoming more independent in terms of defence, as I suspect they will be busy in Africa in the future. And of course, once they have the military power they'll use it to back up their diplomatic efforts and economic power projection. Believing anything else is beyond naive. It's going to be incredibly hard work though, not least because not all militaries in Europe are created equal and many have a long way to go to reach British or American levels not only in terms of technology and equipment but also professionalism and ethos. So far all we've seen is grand announcements. Next, I suspect they'll create a massive bureaucracy to coordinate their efforts and squabble about the details of the implementation. After that, the actual work starts. I won't hold my breath but let's hope they make some real progress over the next few years.

Most of the developments you describe above have started long before Trump took office. This is a good showcase of motivated reasoning. Don't like Trump? Just attribute everything bad that's currently happening to him even if it was already happening before he announced his election campaign. Whatever Trump contributes to the shift towards a multi-polar world is negligible.


I have not compared China to America. Could you please ease off on the straw men a bit? It seems I need to tell you what I haven't written more often than any other user. You claimed that China was not threatening or aggressive and I provided you with evidence to the contrary. Obviously, China's actions are constrained by the circumstances, such as the alliance of countries which the US is part of and which oppose its actions in the South China Sea. In the absence of this, I suspect China would be even more assertive.


I brought it up - and I think I've already explained this - because the refrain of the commentariat and sequence of events was very similar. Reagan upped his rhetoric and people went into a frenzy claiming a nuclear war was imminent. They were wrong. Rather the USSR disintegrated. Note how the confrontational tone had no negative effect, much less that anticipated by Reagan's detractors.

I'm not sure where you get your news from, but I'm baffled how you came away with the impression that NK has shown restraint, e.g.


Also note Trump's more conciliatory tone during a conference at the same time.

I'd have to look up how the USSR publicly responded to Reagan, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if they had verbally fired back too.


Ok, after going through this, I think most of what you have wrote here is fair. But it doesn't address the fundamental argument we were having. The effectiveness of Trumps Tweets.

But on your first point regarding US imperialism, regardless what you want to believe, I doubt Europe wants to be standing in front of cameras declaring anti Russian or Syrian rhetoric any time soon. You can tell by the language they have used recently. They do so because of the US's influence over them - namely in terms of security. Once Pesco becomes a reality, I doubt NATO would last much longer. The wedge between the US and Europe (excluding the UK) has widen significantly since Trump. Not just because of his tweets. There was Paris, his tariffs, now Iran. You cannot prove what is happening behind closed doors of course. And surely, yes this is an opinion. But I suspect if they could they would indeed be telling the US to fuck off and leaving them alone if it wasn't for NATO about now. The language used over the Iran crisis is clear that America is beginning to over step the mark. How much do you honestly think America can get away with until the cord snaps?

As for Trumps Diplomacy, let's talk effectiveness? Do you believe they altered the course of events or do you consider what has happened coincidence?
#14914349
Godstud wrote:North and South Korea were making overtures during the Olympics that had nothing to do with Dolt 45's tweets. It's coincidence. Dolt 45 doesn't have a diplomatic bone in his body.

Tillerson was probably operating with the Koreas at that time. Until Trump ditched him for doing that.
#14914481
B0ycey wrote:
Ok, after going through this, I think most of what you have wrote here is fair. But it doesn't address the fundamental argument we were having. The effectiveness of Trumps Tweets.

But on your first point regarding US imperialism, regardless what you want to believe, I doubt Europe wants to be standing in front of cameras declaring anti Russian or Syrian rhetoric any time soon. You can tell by the language they have used recently. They do so because of the US's influence over them - namely in terms of security. Once Pesco becomes a reality, I doubt NATO would last much longer. The wedge between the US and Europe (excluding the UK) has widen significantly since Trump. Not just because of his tweets. There was Paris, his tariffs, now Iran. You cannot prove what is happening behind closed doors of course. And surely, yes this is an opinion. But I suspect if they could they would indeed be telling the US to fuck off and leaving them alone if it wasn't for NATO about now. The language used over the Iran crisis is clear that America is beginning to over step the mark. How much do you honestly think America can get away with until the cord snaps?

As for Trumps Diplomacy, let's talk effectiveness? Do you believe they altered the course of events or do you consider what has happened coincidence?

I was actually too confrontational I think. Apologies for that.

Trump's tweets are mostly noise and I would hope that foreign governments have realised this by now. You could take some of them simply as a straightforward signal that the US had decided to take a less lenient approach which may also have been communicated through other channels in a more diplomatic way. A different Republican president would have gone about this in a different way, obviously. It could also be, based on the idea that NK's nuclear programme was already crumbling, that the tweet spectacle was mostly for domestic consumption. I'm not in the "Trump plays 8D chess" camp, but what he has managed to do with some regularity is making the Dems and their media go overboard with their reactions and look a bit unhinged while rallying his base at the same time. If the US had an inkling that NK was already in trouble, he could have just played it up.

I think talking about Europe as an entity, even if we exclude the UK, doesn't do the situation justice. The EU recently tried to issue a statement in opposition of the US moving its embassy to Jerusalem. They couldn't arrive at a consensus even on that relatively minor issue, as a few Eastern European countries objected. France and the UK also seemed more keen on the Libya intervention than the US, for instance.

As for Paris and the Iran deal, as I understand it, Trump was able to reverse those easily because they never went through Congress. It should have been clear to Europe that the possibility of the US pulling out of either was there once a Republican became president. It's bad practice in general in my view to try push agreements or deals through in this way and hope there will be enough outrage around the world that the next president doesn't dare to reverse them.
#14914505
The US pulling out of these deals just makes other countries less likely to make deals with a dishonest country that doesn't keep its deals. You can pretend that Trump's tweets are just noise, but everyone knows that it's insight into the demented mind of a senile dotard. His tweets are not the stuff of world leaders, and everyone knows it.
#14914511
Godstud wrote:The US pulling out of these deals just makes other countries less likely to make deals with a dishonest country that doesn't keep its deals. You can pretend that Trump's tweets are just noise, but everyone knows that it's insight into the demented mind of a senile dotard. His tweets are not the stuff of world leaders, and everyone knows it.


Trump's Tweets are not just ''noise'', nor are they an ''insight into a demented mind of a senile dotard'', either. I contend that they are just another tool in the toolkit, a bit of regular neuro-linguistic programming, psychological warfare.

I'm right if he wins. And he is.
#14914540
Godstud wrote:I don't like regimes founded in hatred, arrogance, and ignorance, like the current US one.


I assure you, there are people in the Trump Administration that are highly intelligent and know exactly what is expected of them. All Bourgeoisie governments are built on the basis of ''hatred, arrogance, and ignorance'' to a degree, but here there is something being crafted which absolutely takes the cake when it comes to cynicism, populist demogogery, and screwing of the working man.
#14914774
annatar1914 wrote:I assure you, there are people in the Trump Administration that are highly intelligent and know exactly what is expected of them. All Bourgeoisie governments are built on the basis of ''hatred, arrogance, and ignorance'' to a degree, but here there is something being crafted which absolutely takes the cake when it comes to cynicism, populist demogogery, and screwing of the working man.


Lol how fucking naive are you if you think Trump has competent people around him and that he's secretly a genius playing 13th dimensional chess?

You don't have to look further than Trump's personal attorney to know that he' surrounded by idiots surviving off the grift Trump leaves in his wake.
#14914840
Lol how fucking naive are you if you think Trump has competent people around him and that he's secretly a genius playing 13th dimensional chess?


You must think i'm fucking naive if you think i'm going to buy what you're selling, that people who have survived the snake pit real estate market in New York and internationally are somehow incompetent morons.

You don't have to look further than Trump's personal attorney to know that he' surrounded by idiots surviving off the grift Trump leaves in his wake.


Pull the other one, SO. If there's ''grift'' to be produced off of Trump, he must have some sharpness and cunning, now wouldn't he?

Typical arrogant nonsense, which i'll relish seeing destroyed as Trump's faction seizes total power in this country, oh the schadenfreude to see all these illusions brutally vaporized!
#14914847
SpecialOlympian wrote:Lol how fucking naive are you if you think Trump has competent people around him and that he's secretly a genius playing 13th dimensional chess?


He is. He is ensuring his re-election in 2020. That is the 13th dimensional chess you are talking about.

He's not "secretly" playing it, he's doing it openly. We are already less than a year out from the Democratic nominees sticking their hands up.
#14915003
Godstud wrote:I don't like regimes founded in hatred, arrogance, and ignorance, like the current US one.


+1 I think trump's fan people will be desppointed, so nervours, the madness of trump is good for stop crisis but not to solve a crisis.
He has a lack of labor and expérience, he is an assisted and we can see that it's always the same old tune ... this is not amazing if he comes from of a stupid tv show, I can heard, he is worthy and wealthy buisness man. But he does not know others things conversely of Poutine ....
#14915013
Godstud wrote:I don't like regimes founded in hatred, arrogance, and ignorance, like the current US one.


Tell me about these other regimes based upon love, kindness, and understanding. :)
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